thanks! in fact, i feel like in the late 80s/early 90s using bbs this way, really good
Andeddu wrote to Silver <=-
Re: Re: First Time Using a BBS... I just wanted to say "Hi" to all
By: Silver to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Sep 20 2020 12:16 pm
thanks! in fact, i feel like in the late 80s/early 90s using bbs this way, really good
Yeh, it has a different feel to it than the world-wide-web... a much cleaner and diluted look to it. I use BBS's because I am on an 80's computer that would be completely incapable of going on the standard internet. Hope to see you around!
---
= Synchronet = BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and
PCW!
Thanks! by the way, i'm interested about the offline readers, can you tell me about that? because i use a limited 4G data plan to connect my computer and i don't want my data ran out because my computer was doing background downloads while connected to the BBS
Well you don't have to worry about background downloads with a BBS. That
Thanks, Gringo, Do you talk Spanish? i make that question because "Gringo"
Thank You! i heard anbout of FidoNet in classes while i
attended High School, a teacher was talking about that on
a class of "History of Computers",
and, wll, i was borned in 1999, but i don't know why, i
LOVE the 80's/90's, i collect various things from that
decades, in fact, i am the only person in my neighborhood
with:
-A VHS Player
-A Beta Player
-a Stereo system (With Vinyl-cassete-DAT-CD and AM-FM-LW-SW Reciever)
-A LaserDisc Player
-And a computer still running MS-DOS 6.22
some of my neighbors HATE me because i usually put one of
my best vinyls or cassetes on saturday-sunday morning, but
i do that as payback, my neighbors listen Reggaeton and
other kind of music called "corridos", from Mexico, and
don't let me sleep well
also sometimes i host a type of party called "80's Party",
just with friends and some members of my family, all acting
like we are in the 80's, also dressing like on that decade,
but i stopped hosting that since the COVID-19 Pandemic
well,
anithing you want to talk, i'll be here for a
looooooong time Greetings!
well, Hi, it's my first time using a bbs, i had used web-based forums but i don't now what changes between a bbs forum and a web forum
if i wrong with a concept, just explain me
Thanks for read!!!
On 09-22-20 05:35, Silver wrote to Vk3jed <=-
@VIA: VERT
Re: Re: First Time Using a BBS... I just wanted to say "Hi" to all
By: Vk3jed to Silver on Mon Sep 21 2020 06:45 pm
Thanks! by the way, i'm interested about the offline readers, can you
tell me about that? because i use a limited 4G data plan to connect my computer and i don't want my data ran out because my computer was doing background downloads while connected to the BBS
Which 80's computer are you using?
I am using an '84 Macintosh upgraded to an '86 Macintosh Plus. It has a powerful Motorola 68000 CPU running at 8MHz along with 1MB RAM. I have
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: First Time Using a BB
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Tue Sep 22 2020 10:10 pm
Which 80's computer are you using?
I am using an '84 Macintosh upgraded to an '86 Macintosh Plus. It has a powerful Motorola 68000 CPU running at 8MHz along with 1MB RAM. I have seen people run a machine like this with its own TCP/IP stack but I
don't see the point in trying to go on the modern internet using an
early 90's browser that is incapable of pulling up 99% of websites.
BBSing is my main use, and probably only use, for this machine.
---
Thank You! i heard anbout of FidoNet in classes while i
attended High School, a teacher was talking about that on
a class of "History of Computers",
You had a very informed teacher if they mentioned Fidonet! :)
Re: Re: First Time Using a BB
By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Wed Sep 23 2020 06:41 pm
I am using an '84 Macintosh upgraded to an '86 Macintosh Plus. It has a powerful Motorola 68000 CPU running at 8MHz along with 1MB RAM. I have
Don't those have a black & white screen? For BBSing, it might be nice
to use a machine with a color monitor.
On 09-24-20 01:38, Dennisk wrote to Andeddu <=-
It's a good reminder that 8MHz and 1MB of RAM is actually enough to do quite a few things, and old computers aren't junk. How does the 68000
CPU compare to the x86?
Don't those have a black & white screen? For BBSing, it might be
nice
to use a machine with a color monitor.
Or perhaps monochrome... or use a screen such as this to relive the vintage area when we first started computing.
Re: Re: First Time Using a BB
By: Jon Justvig to Nightfox on Thu Sep 24 2020 01:46 am
Don't those have a black & white screen? For BBSing, it might be
nice
to use a machine with a color monitor.
Or perhaps monochrome... or use a screen such as this to relive the vintage area when we first started computing.
My first computer (in 1992) had a Hercules monochrome monitor. I was using BBSes right away with it, but with that monitor, everything was different shades of amber. Months later, I got a VGA card & monitor (640x480), and going to color was like a whole new world, even when
using BBSes.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 09-24-20 01:38, Dennisk wrote to Andeddu <=-
It's a good reminder that 8MHz and 1MB of RAM is actually enough to do quite a few things, and old computers aren't junk. How does the 68000
CPU compare to the x86?
IIRC, the 68000 stacked up pretty well against the x86 of its day.
That would have been the 286 at best. :) I started BBSing on a 4.77
MHz 8088 with 640k RAM and twin floppies. And a friend was using a Microbee with a Z80 at around 7 MHz and 128k RAM (I think 64k was a RAM disk).
Jon Justvig wrote to Nightfox <=-
... Nightfox scribbled to Jon Justvig in the sand ...
Re: Re: First Time Using a BB
By: Jon Justvig to Nightfox on Thu Sep 24 2020 01:46 am
Don't those have a black & white screen? For BBSing, it might be
nice
to use a machine with a color monitor.
Or perhaps monochrome... or use a screen such as this to relive the vintage area when we first started computing.
My first computer (in 1992) had a Hercules monochrome monitor. I was using BBSes right away with it, but with that monitor, everything was different shades of amber. Months later, I got a VGA card & monitor (640x480), and going to color was like a whole new world, even when
using BBSes.
I'd love to bring back a system like that to the BBS scene. Perhaps a
C64 system under DOSBox. Closest I got lately was with Renegade under DOSBox using Linux.
I remember those good ol' days. First experiences with computers were
the best. Nowdays, everything seems the same except in a different
way. As they say, same ol same ol.
Sincerely,
Jon Justvig
Don't those have a black & white screen? For BBSing, it might be nice to use a machine with a color monitor.
Nightfox
It's a good reminder that 8MHz 1MB of RAM is actually enough to do quite
a few things, and old computers aren't junk. How does the 68000 CPU compare to the x86?
I'd love to bring back a system like that to the BBS scene. Perhaps a C64 system under DOSBox. Closest I got lately was with Renegade under DOSBox using Linux.
I remember those good ol' days. First experiences with computers were the best. Nowdays, everything seems the same except in a different way. As they say, same ol same ol.
On 09-25-20 04:08, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I had a 4.77MHz V30 with 640K RAM and twin floppies. I still have most
of it, enough to run it (missing the case, which is the best part, and drives, was lost somehow). That PC system was great, best looking
machine I had and I want to BBS on it again, mostly because I enjoy
using the green phosphorescent monitor. I just have to find some odd timing issues it has.
I had never heard of the Microbee until a couple of weeks ago. Seems a nifty Aussie produced machine.
On 09-24-20 08:15, Nightfox wrote to Jon Justvig <=-
My first computer (in 1992) had a Hercules monochrome monitor. I was using BBSes right away with it, but with that monitor, everything was different shades of amber. Months later, I got a VGA card & monitor (640x480), and going to color was like a whole new world, even when
using BBSes.
Yeh, my BBS machine has a 9" black and white monochrome CRT. The background is white and the text is black. I don't mind the lack of colour as I don't look at ANSI graphics or anything as the terminal programme I use does not support it. I genuinely like monochrome screens and would love a retro machine with a green or orange monochrome screen.
I had a 4.77MHz V30 with 640K RAM and twin floppies. I still have most of enough to run it
Our first computer when I was growing up was a Commodore 64 and then an IBM Aptiva (486 DX2-66). I know the Commodore monitor ended up in my room where I hooked the SNES up to it, but I have no idea whatever happened to the rest of the C64 or any of the IBM Aptiva.
We never had a modem for the C64, but the IBM did come with an internal 2400 which we later upgraded to a 14.4.
After my 14.4k modem I started to prefer internal modems, but later I missed having the status light external modems typically have.
When I upgraded from the internal 2400 to the 14.4 I HAD to have an external because of the lights. The problem with the IBM Aptiva is it only had an 8250 UART, meaning I really only got 9600 speeds out of the 14.4 when connected to the external serial port. So I really should have gone with an internal.
Not just for looking at art, but BBS menu screens & everything else on a BBS is usually colorized. Black & white/monochrome screens have their own retro feel too though.
Nightfox
Our first computer when I was growing up was a Commodore 64 and then an IBM Our first computer when I was growing up was a Commodore 64 and then an IBM Aptiva (486 DX2-66). I know the Commodore monitor ended up in my room where I hooked the SNES up to it, but I have no idea whatever happened to the rest of the C64 or any of the IBM Aptiva.
We never had a modem for the C64, but the IBM did come with an internal 2400 which we later upgraded to a 14.4.
Jon Justvig wrote to Nightfox <=-
... Nightfox scribbled to Jon Justvig in the sand ...
Re: Re: First Time Using a BB
By: Jon Justvig to Nightfox on Thu Sep 24 2020 01:46 am
I'd love to bring back a system like that to the BBS scene. Perhaps a
C64 system under DOSBox. Closest I got lately was with Renegade under DOSBox using Linux.
I remember those good ol' days. First experiences with computers were
the best. Nowdays, everything seems the same except in a different
way. As they say, same ol same ol.
Try Cool Retro Term, or Cathode: Vintage Terminal Emulators. Not
exactl the same, but there are terminals you can get for Linux which mimick the look of a CRT as well as you can on an LCD. Just start that
up and zssh/ztelnet in.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 09-25-20 04:08, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I had a 4.77MHz V30 with 640K RAM and twin floppies. I still have most
of it, enough to run it (missing the case, which is the best part, and drives, was lost somehow). That PC system was great, best looking
machine I had and I want to BBS on it again, mostly because I enjoy
using the green phosphorescent monitor. I just have to find some odd timing issues it has.
I upgraded the Tandy 1000 we gad with a V20, which made a noticeable difference over the original 8088 at the same clock speed.
I had never heard of the Microbee until a couple of weeks ago. Seems a nifty Aussie produced machine.
It was quite a good machine in its day. The only downside (for us
radio hams) was that it had no shielding whatsoever, and radiated crud
all over the HF bands. Still a retro system that I'd like to get my
hands on again.
Warpslide wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 25 Sep 2020, Dennisk said the following...
I had a 4.77MHz V30 with 640K RAM and twin floppies. I still have most of enough to run it
Our first computer when I was growing up was a Commodore 64 and then an IBM Aptiva (486 DX2-66). I know the Commodore monitor ended up in my
room where I hooked the SNES up to it, but I have no idea whatever happened to the rest of the C64 or any of the IBM Aptiva.
We never had a modem for the C64, but the IBM did come with an internal 2400 which we later upgraded to a 14.4.
Jay
Andeddu wrote to Jon Justvig <=-
Re: Re: First Time Using a BB
By: Jon Justvig to Nightfox on Thu Sep 24 2020 11:43 am
I'd love to bring back a system like that to the BBS scene. Perhaps a C64 system under DOSBox. Closest I got lately was with Renegade under DOSBox using Linux.
I remember those good ol' days. First experiences with computers were the best. Nowdays, everything seems the same except in a different way. As they say, same ol same ol.
Likewise. I'd love an old IBM with a Hercules monitor. I remember
watching LGR using his one a while back on YouTube and it looked quite incredible. I agree that most computers these days are quite boring.
Yes, they're super powerful, but they all look the same and all perform
to a high standard by all metrics. These older computers have their own unique appearances and quirks. They have different colour monitors from black and white, to phosphor green, to monochrome amber or to basic
colour screens, etc...
I've recently began watching the old episodes of The Computer
Chronicles on YouTube (the entire series has been uploaded, free to
view) and it's been pretty awesome seeing people in business attire
talk about 286/386 processors, Zenith laptops, IBMs and early Macintosh systems. It's a real blast from the past. Especially for someone like
me who never watched the original run because I don't reside in the
USA.
... Dennisk scribbled to Jon Justvig in the sand ...
Jon Justvig wrote to Nightfox <=-
... Nightfox scribbled to Jon Justvig in the sand ...
Re: Re: First Time Using a BB
By: Jon Justvig to Nightfox on Thu Sep 24 2020 01:46 am
I'd love to bring back a system like that to the BBS scene. Perhaps a C64 system under DOSBox. Closest I got lately was with Renegade under DOSBox using Linux.
I remember those good ol' days. First experiences with computers were the best. Nowdays, everything seems the same except in a different way. As they say, same ol same ol.
Try Cool Retro Term, or Cathode: Vintage Terminal Emulators. Not exactl the same, but there are terminals you can get for Linux which mimick the look of a CRT as well as you can on an LCD. Just start that
up and zssh/ztelnet in.
Cool Retro Term is SO awesome. Thanks for that. That terminal and ztelnet work great together. The vintage feel. I love it!
Sincerely,
Jon Justvig
On 09-26-20 09:42, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
One of the versions of Landmark that I ran on it clocks it at 2MHz, a
more modern one at 4.77MHz. I've never had a 8088 to compare against,
but I remember playing Simcity on it, which was slowish, but playable.
If I ever come accross one, I'll let you know.
Re: Re: First Time Using a BB
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Sep 24 2020 01:38 am
It's a good reminder that 8MHz 1MB of RAM is actually enough to do quite a few things, and old computers aren't junk. How does the 68000 CPU comp to the x86?
I'd say so. I didn't think I'd have much use for this old thing given that i over 36 years of age. I originally thought it would be a nice relic to have propped up in my office for a while, then I learned about BBSing and discove that I could still go online with these machines. I have been using this computer regularly ever since sourcing the parts required for online use and still having a blast. It's a little mental to think I am communicating with people on a system that's older than me (and I ain't young!). I definitely s value in older computers and I do like seeing people use and preserve them.
I can't really tell you about the difference between a 68K and x86 processor because I do not have a comparable x86 computer and have never tried programming, and I know little to nothing about code... lol.
Re: Re: First Time Using a BB
By: Jon Justvig to Nightfox on Thu Sep 24 2020 11:43 am
I'd love to bring back a system like that to the BBS scene. Perhaps a C6 system under DOSBox. Closest I got lately was with Renegade under DOSBox using Linux.
I remember those good ol' days. First experiences with computers were th best. Nowdays, everything seems the same except in a different way. As they say, same ol same ol.
Likewise. I'd love an old IBM with a Hercules monitor. I remember watching L using his one a while back on YouTube and it looked quite incredible. I agre that most computers these days are quite boring. Yes, they're super powerful but they all look the same and all perform to a high standard by all metrics These older computers have their own unique appearances and quirks. They hav different colour monitors from black and white, to phosphor green, to monochrome amber or to basic colour screens, etc...
I've recently began watching the old episodes of The Computer Chronicles on YouTube (the entire series has been uploaded, free to view) and it's been pretty awesome seeing people in business attire talk about 286/386 processor Zenith laptops, IBMs and early Macintosh systems. It's a real blast from the past. Especially for someone like me who never watched the original run beca I don't reside in the USA.
Re: Re: First Time Using a BB
By: Jon Justvig to Dennisk on Sat Sep 26 2020 01:06:00
No problem. There are a few retro term programs, but Cool Retro Term
is one I've used myself. I do like how it emulates quite a few
different monitors. Just needs a bit of tweaking to look right.
Isn't it weird that people do all this work to produce hi-resolution, colour accurate LCD displays with razor sharp text and true type fonts with lower power usage and radiation leakage for people like us to say "yeah, nah, the green phosphor with 8x8 CGA characters is what I want".
The Computer Chronicles is fantastic for a retro-computer nerd. I've kept my Amdek green monochrome CGA monitor. The challenge is having a machine to connect it to, because it takes composite input. I did connect my Commodore 64 to it.
I do miss the unique experience you would get using different computers, with differnet UI's fonts and monitors. I run a pretty non standard Window Manager on Linux (FVWM). There used to be a sense that you would go from one place to another, when you moved from say, using the commodore 64 at home, to the Apple or PC at school. Everything is homogeneous now, but by the same token, still different enough to be a PITA.
Jon Justvig wrote to Dennisk <=-
... Dennisk scribbled to Jon Justvig in the sand ...
Re: Re: First Time Using a BB
By: Jon Justvig to Dennisk on Sat Sep 26 2020 01:06:00
No problem. There are a few retro term programs, but Cool Retro Term
is one I've used myself. I do like how it emulates quite a few
different monitors. Just needs a bit of tweaking to look right.
I've been amazed by the vintage feel I've been getting with cool retro term. I'll have to check out some tweaking for different feels.
Isn't it weird that people do all this work to produce hi-resolution, colour accurate LCD displays with razor sharp text and true type fonts with lower power usage and radiation leakage for people like us to say "yeah, nah, the green phosphor with 8x8 CGA characters is what I want".
Not as quite a weird as you think. People like vinyl records vs.
modern audio outlets. Things of the past brings back some of the good memories of when we were young. Think of going on a date 40 years ago before cd players but perhaps a record player that played a romanic
song during a special day of your life. Reminising is a great thing...
a blast from the past. :)
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Re: First Time Using a BB
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sat Sep 26 2020 10:06 am
The Computer Chronicles is fantastic for a retro-computer nerd. I've kept my Amdek green monochrome CGA monitor. The challenge is having a machine to connect it to, because it takes composite input. I did connect my Commodore 64 to it.
I do miss the unique experience you would get using different computers, with differnet UI's fonts and monitors. I run a pretty non standard Window Manager on Linux (FVWM). There used to be a sense that you would go from one place to another, when you moved from say, using the commodore 64 at home, to the Apple or PC at school. Everything is homogeneous now, but by the same token, still different enough to be a PITA.
They sure don't make technology programmes like The Computer Chronicles anymore. I was watching an interesting '85 episode on computer networks and saw the hosts and guests contemplate their use in a work
enviroment, barriers and costs to entry alongside the efficiency
benefits. I saw a little '84 Macintosh like mine connect to an IBM
network and seamlessly share/edit documents. These are things we take
for granted in the present day, but were revolutionary at the time. I
also saw an '89 episode on early laptops. One guy brought in a massive brick which had an antenna attached to it. The laptop was able to
connect wirelessly via a mobile carrier to the internet. I was quite amazed at how ahead of its time that thing was.
I think there is still diversity in software and operating systems
today. The computers themselves have become boring and homogenised.
Back in the 80's, there wasn't a standard look to a computer so
everyone had their own unique design. Obiviously the IBM 5150 and Apple IIgs style of desktop won the day.
On 09-13-20 19:22, Dennisk wrote to Jon Justvig <=-
Vinyl does sound different, and I CRTs do look different. I do
miss the sharp contrast of colours when using the LCD.
White or Green text on a black background does look crisp, but the
black background just isn't black enough on the LCD.
Part of it is nostalgia, but I do like machine which
are tactile. That is, mechanical keyboards satisfying to press,
screens which glow like screens should, storage you can hold. You
interacted with older machines in a different way. You actually loaded
in disks, and you could program at a low level and access all the hardware, AND understand it. For me at least, its more than nostalgia,
I feel with older technology, that I'm more empowered because I can understand it and utilise it. An iPhone is powerful, and you can
develop for it, but you interface with an API. With Android, the
default is Java, you typically wouldn't even access the CPU, just a virtual machine. Kind of feels like the machine isn't fully yours to control.
Nightfox wrote to Jon Justvig <=-
My first computer (in 1992) had a Hercules monochrome monitor. I was using BBSes right away with it, but with that monitor, everything was different shades of amber. Months later, I got a VGA card & monitor (640x480), and going to color was like a whole new world, even when
using BBSes.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 09-13-20 19:22, Dennisk wrote to Jon Justvig <=-
Vinyl does sound different, and I CRTs do look different. I do
Yes, vinyl does sound different - higher noise, highr distortion, especially intermodulation, which was rarely listed in cartridge specs, but vinyl did also have a wider frequency response at the top end than CDs, because CDs had to cut off sharply at 20 kHz to prevent aliasing,
due to their low sampling rate (44.1kHz).
miss the sharp contrast of colours when using the LCD.
White or Green text on a black background does look crisp, but the
black background just isn't black enough on the LCD.
I found CRTs harder on the eyes, compared to LCDs, I think
subconscious levels of flicker were at least part of the problem, using higher refresh rates did help a bit, when the monitor supported that.
Part of it is nostalgia, but I do like machine which
are tactile. That is, mechanical keyboards satisfying to press,
screens which glow like screens should, storage you can hold. You
Yes, I liked mechanical keyboards, CRTs I can take or leave, though on
a real retro machine, they do look the part.
interacted with older machines in a different way. You actually loaded
in disks, and you could program at a low level and access all the hardware, AND understand it. For me at least, its more than nostalgia,
True, you often had to directly interact with hardware. DOS and the
OSs that came beofre it generally had no protected mode and relied on
the application programmer to not crash the system. Many were also
single tasking, which meant the application programmer could make the assumption that nothing else (except for the odd interrupt handler)
would be using any of the hardware, and directly accessing hardware was
a common thing. It was also both fun and educational to set registers
and send/receive commands and data.
I feel with older technology, that I'm more empowered because I can understand it and utilise it. An iPhone is powerful, and you can
develop for it, but you interface with an API. With Android, the
default is Java, you typically wouldn't even access the CPU, just a virtual machine. Kind of feels like the machine isn't fully yours to control.
Well, even modern CPUs don't expose their actual instruction set. The expose an ISA, such as x86, AMD64 or ARM, which is trandlated into the CPU's native instruction set by an on chip hardware layer. Transistors are cheaper than programmers, and these days, on a chip with billions
of them, what's a few thousand, or even few million more? :)
While both designs have their strengths, the 68k family were better cpu's, ho wever their cost at the time was 3 times that of an Intel x86 cpu. The implementation of a 68k series cpu would've cost more as well to deal with extra address lines.
I recall watching Computer Chronicles on WTTW in chicago and WNIT in South Bend, however they either rescheduled it to a wierd time ro stopped showing it after 1987. I recall seeing the episodes from 1984 through 1986 when they were brand new. Gary Kildall was such a sharp guy, and it's a shame over
time to see him get more and more bitter playing second fiddle to Bill Gates and Microsoft.
Ahh, I did hear that the 68K architecture was better than the x86. I never came across anything 68K though before this machine. Do you know if the 90's Power PCs from Apple were 68K also?
On 09-27-20 23:46, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
It does depend on the monitor. LCD's are when sampled at random are easier on the eye, as fuzzy and old CRT's do strain. I remember
working on old CRT's back in the early 2000's, poor refresh rate, fuzzy image, and black text on white background, and it sucked. But a good
CRT is about the same to me, and I usually run black backgrounds, light text, or at the very least, dark background light text, which makes people I work with wonder why my screen looks odd as I work on Word document which looks like green text on black. It the light coming
from the monitor which affects me more. So if the background of the
text is pitch black, its easier for me.
Protected mode for business, Real Mode for fun.
Well, even modern CPUs don't expose their actual instruction set. The expose an ISA, such as x86, AMD64 or ARM, which is trandlated into the CPU's native instruction set by an on chip hardware layer. Transistors are cheaper than programmers, and these days, on a chip with billions
of them, what's a few thousand, or even few million more? :)
Yeah, thats true. The 'machine language' is now an abstraction itself.
Where the register AX might have been an actual register, its now just
a label the CPU uses, and where exactly the bits are stored will change from time to time.
I guess I'm just the kind of person that likes to control the machine.
I drive a manual car for the same reason.
On 09-28-20 02:22, Andeddu wrote to Moondog <=-
Ahh, I did hear that the 68K architecture was better than the x86. I
never came across anything 68K though before this machine. Do you know
if the 90's Power PCs from Apple were 68K also?
Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
nestle more seamlessly into the rest of the ecosystem. The clear
drawback will be the lack of applications available on release as developers will have to port everything over. I have never owned a
MacBook but I would consider an ARM one.
nestle more seamlessly into the rest of the ecosystem. The clear
drawback will be the lack of applications available on release as
developers will have to port everything over. I have never owned a
MacBook but I would consider an ARM one.
They had a way to make binaries that ran on both Motorola and PowerPC architectures, maybe they could do the same for Intel/ARM?
On 09-29-20 06:52, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I'm not too excited myself about new processors because I have no need
for that power. It's good for CERN, for imaging black holes, protein folding, running simulations of supernova, climate modelling, that kind
of thing.
I'd like to see developments in modularisation and manufacture which allows more custom made solutions. I was thinking that if we could 3D print, or at home programs/create basic chips, you could build your own devices at home. You can do it now, but imagine if you could download information and make IC's that way. I think we are heading there in
some ways. The microchip put computing into the home and allowed
anyone to create and develop, what if the manufacture of these machines was also put into the home, or at least in small industry?
Ahh, the lag. Yes, that is weird. I drove my parents car a few times years ago, and I thought there was something wrong with it. Then I
drove another auto and noticed that was how the cars are.
On 09-29-20 12:42, Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
They probably will. Apple also did that with the Intel transition,
having Mac OS apps that had native binaries for both PowerPC and Intel.
One issue with that, though, is wasted space, as one of the binaries
will never be used on the machine. If you have a bunch of apps made
that way, that would be some fairly significant drive space being used basically for nothing.
PowerPC was a different architecture that Apple used in the latter part of the 90s and early 2000s, before switching to Intel. So far, there's been 3 distinct generations of Macs - 600xx, then PowerPC and finally, Intel. And it looks like soon there will be a 4th generation - ARM.Buy Microsoft Surface built on ARM. It is 64bit ARM CPU based machine that runs 32bit Intel code as well to maintain some compatibility level with existing stack of natively compiled software.
The ARM generation will be an interesting one. The A-series chips in
the iPhone and iPad are extremely fast and efficient so it'll be nice
to see laptops running on the same hardware.
They had a way to make binaries that ran on both Motorola and PowerPC
architectures, maybe they could do the same for Intel/ARM?
On 09-29-20 06:52, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I'm not too excited myself about new processors because I have no need for that power. It's good for CERN, for imaging black holes, protein folding, running simulations of supernova, climate modelling, that kind of thing.
I do get excited with DSP and SDR, because that really is the future of most radio systems. Not only more flexible, but the performance of a well designed SDR is just amazing - dynamic range, in particular can be very impressive.
I'd like to see developments in modularisation and manufacture which allows more custom made solutions. I was thinking that if we could 3D print, or at home programs/create basic chips, you could build your own devices at home. You can do it now, but imagine if you could download information and make IC's that way. I think we are heading there in some ways. The microchip put computing into the home and allowed anyone to create and develop, what if the manufacture of these machines was also put into the home, or at least in small industry?
Hmm, that could be interesting. I have some peculiar limitations in my makeup that may affect how much I can use that tech, but time will tell.
Ahh, the lag. Yes, that is weird. I drove my parents car a few times years ago, and I thought there was something wrong with it. Then I drove another auto and noticed that was how the cars are.
Yeah, and annoying, especially for me now - trained to react quickly when needed, and when something doesn't react fast enough, it does my head in. :)
They probably will. Apple also did that with the Intel transition,
having Mac OS apps that had native binaries for both PowerPC and
Intel. One issue with that, though, is wasted space, as one of the
binaries will never be used on the machine. If you have a bunch of
apps made that way, that would be some fairly significant drive
space being used basically for nothing.
I hardly think diskspace (for application binaries) is much of an issue these days! It would have been a bigger issue in the 68k - PPC days, and even PPC-Intel.
WIndows 10 for Arm64 is capable of running x86 code (32bit only), as written in other post, check MS's surface built on ARM. Works really smoothly I can ensure you.
The home computer revolution, and much of the talent that came from it, came about because people were free to tinker and modify. That is
being lost, as computers are more and more seen as consumer devices.
Free software OS's buck the trend, but we are going to have fewer
people who can actually innovate and create.
Yes, the new iPhones are blazing fast. Not just snappy to open, but even some of the onscreen animations for social media platforms seem rediculously fast on the new iPhone. :)
I think Apple will be on a winner here in the long term. They'll come up with something to help users migrate to the new architecture, at least until the new ecosystem is fully functioning.
I had an Intel one, quite liked it. An ARM one would be interesting. Could be both fast and energy efficient.
Buy Microsoft Surface built on ARM. It is 64bit ARM CPU based machine that runs 32bit Intel code as well to maintain some compatibility level with existing stack of natively compiled software.
On 09-30-20 08:17, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
The home computer revolution, and much of the talent that came from it, came about because people were free to tinker and modify. That is
being lost, as computers are more and more seen as consumer devices.
Free software OS's buck the trend, but we are going to have fewer
people who can actually innovate and create.
I kind of believe that a lot of progress comes from individuals out of left field, not just from large corporations. If we rely on Google/Apple/Amazon/Microsoft for innovation, we will stagnate. Great things come from great individuals, not beaurocracies and
organisations, and I fully support putting the power back in the hands
of hobbyists and individuals, and give them the freedom to build.
I really couldn't care less what Apple is doing, or Microsoft, or Facebook. For me, the cool things are the hacks that people can make.
It is being able to manufacture your own computer (8 Bit Guys Commander X16 and the Mega65 for example), where people can decide for themselves what they need, not some corporate vision.
On 09-30-20 08:04, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I hardly think diskspace (for application binaries) is much of an issue these days! It would have been a bigger issue in the 68k - PPC days, and even PPC-Intel.
Still, it seems like a bit of a waste. It would be about half of the application size going unused (maybe a little less).
On 09-30-20 17:41, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I have an older iPhone 8 which is still on the A11 bionic chip which is the same one in the iPhone X. I downloaded iOS 14 yesterday and everything's still buttery smooth. No frame drops in animations,
websites, social media or anything of the like. I think the jury is
still out on my replacing this phone with either the iPhone SE (2020)
or iPhone 12 Mini as it still performs as fast as ever.
I think MacOS is a much more forgiving OS when it comes to performance, it's much like Linux in that way. My sister only just replaced her
MacBook Pro (2012) with a new MacBook Air and said it performed to a
high standard over the past 8 years. An 8 year old laptop with the
newest update of Windows 10 would be an absolute embarrassment. I quite like Windows but I feel it's very system heavy and unoptimised compared
to alternative operating systems. It's like they just want you to brute force the inefficiencies with a faster CPU and more and more RAM.
Apple's ARM chips are powerful so I am quite excited to see what
they're capable of once implemented into laptops. They'll certainly outperform ultra low voltage Intel processors in every concievable way.
hollowone wrote to Dennisk <=-
The home computer revolution, and much of the talent that came from it, came about because people were free to tinker and modify. That is
being lost, as computers are more and more seen as consumer devices.
Free software OS's buck the trend, but we are going to have fewer
people who can actually innovate and create.
You should definitively look into FPGA world.
FPGA + Raspberry PI, people are creating own computers, recreate old
ones. I think this is the area where home computing is getting its passiote reboot.
and as the nature of these computers are small, they are actually not
only work of passion classified as hobby but can be marketed as well if well connected with IoT and Robotics.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 09-30-20 08:17, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
The home computer revolution, and much of the talent that came from it, came about because people were free to tinker and modify. That is
being lost, as computers are more and more seen as consumer devices.
Free software OS's buck the trend, but we are going to have fewer
people who can actually innovate and create.
True, the original Apple was a garage/basement projects, as was the
first ham satellite (OSCAR 1).
I kind of believe that a lot of progress comes from individuals out of left field, not just from large corporations. If we rely on Google/Apple/Amazon/Microsoft for innovation, we will stagnate. Great things come from great individuals, not beaurocracies and
organisations, and I fully support putting the power back in the hands
of hobbyists and individuals, and give them the freedom to build.
That's the appeal of hobbies like ham radio - the really interesting
stuff is done by the experimenters working on stuff, like Codec2 and FreeDV. Codec2 is an attempt to create an open source vocoder to give intelligible audio at very low bitrates - down to 700 bits/sec, and
even 450 has been achieved by a third party. FreeDV is a digital voice communication system that uses Codec2 to encode the audio and modems designed to give good performance over poor HF paths. These are not
big corporate projects, but decentralised groups of experimenters.
I've been involved in the RoIP space, and much innovation has been done
by individuals - I've even had a hand in that myself - that took me as
far as Vegas to speak at a conference. Even now, as commercially
designed systems have begun t take over from the ham developed systems
for analogue radios, the open source innovation is still happening
behind the scenes, causing those commercially produced systems to be
built in ways that the makers never intended. :)
I really couldn't care less what Apple is doing, or Microsoft, or Facebook. For me, the cool things are the hacks that people can make.
It is being able to manufacture your own computer (8 Bit Guys Commander X16 and the Mega65 for example), where people can decide for themselves what they need, not some corporate vision.
I'll leave you at that low level stuff. I'm more of an integrator,
taking the bits that others build and plugging them together in new
ways. :)
I think MacOS is a much more forgiving OS when it comes to performance, it's much like Linux in that way. My sister only just replaced her MacBook Pro (2012) with a new MacBook Air and said it performed to a high standard over the
past 8 years. An 8 year old laptop with the newest update of Windows 10 would be an absolute embarrassment. I quite like Windows but I feel it's very system
heavy and unoptimised compared to alternative operating systems. It's like they
just want you to brute force the inefficiencies with a faster CPU and more and
more RAM.
Apple's ARM chips are powerful so I am quite excited to see what they're capable of once implemented into laptops. They'll certainly outperform ultra low voltage Intel processors in every concievable way.
hollowone wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
WIndows 10 for Arm64 is capable of running x86 code (32bit only), as written in other post, check MS's surface built on ARM. Works really smoothly I can ensure you.
WIndows 10 for Arm64 is capable of running x86 code (32bit only), as
written in other post, check MS's surface built on ARM. Works really
smoothly I can ensure you.
Is that the Surface that ran Windows RT you're referring to? I always thought that was an interesting idea.
On 10-01-20 23:07, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
People at home are solving real problems that they face, where the corporate world is making a product for the corporate world. Some of
the home developed stuff is just bored devs creating a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, but others are just people creating what
they need. Some very useful programs to me are simply ones created by someone at home, whether it a 2 Factor Authenticator shell script, a program to delete spam from your POP account before downloading it (I
used to use a basic one for years, then created one myself which
handled unicode correctly), a backup program (DAR), among many others.
I'll leave you at that low level stuff. I'm more of an integrator,
taking the bits that others build and plugging them together in new
ways. :)
Like Dr Frankenstein.
On 10-01-20 12:41, Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Actually Microsoft has a new ARM-based version of Windows, from what I understand. I heard Windows RT flopped in the market, mainly because
it only ran the new-style Windows "Metro" apps. I've heard Microsoft
now has a version of Windows 10 that runs desktop software on ARM, and
it also has a 32-bit x86 emulator so it can run Windows x86 desktop software on ARM.
Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Actually Microsoft has a new ARM-based version of Windows, from what I understand. I heard Windows RT flopped in the market, mainly because
it only ran the new-style Windows "Metro" apps. I've heard Microsoft
now has a version of Windows 10 that runs desktop software on ARM, and
it also has a 32-bit x86 emulator so it can run Windows x86 desktop software on ARM.
Actually Microsoft has a new ARM-based version of Windows, from what
I understand. I heard Windows RT flopped in the market, mainly
because it only ran the new-style Windows "Metro" apps. I've heard
Microsoft now has a version of Windows 10 that runs desktop software
on ARM, and it also has a 32-bit x86 emulator so it can run Windows
x86 desktop software on ARM.
It will be interesting to see how this ARM based version goes. I wouldn't mind giving it a run.
Actually Microsoft has a new ARM-based version of Windows, from what I understand. I heard Windows RT flopped in the market, mainly because it only ran the new-style Windows "Metro" apps. I've heard Microsoft now has a version of Windows 10 that runs desktop software on ARM, and it also has a 32-bit x86 emulator so it can run Windows x86 desktop software on ARM.
Now, if they can get the NXVDM subsystem working on it, I could
finally have my retro-mod system running on a custom-built tiny ARM
box. Full screen vDOS for text apps, DOSBOX with Windows 3.1, and wrap
it all around a retro looking case. :)
--- TRACKER1 wrote --
WinRT was a ground-up rewrite of the core Windows APIs, iirc... in
practice, Windows RT only allowed for modern/managed applications (part windows port, part winrt), which was problematic for legacy/performance.
The newer Windows on ARM does have a Windows-on-Windows emulation for
x86 apps on the ARM side, similar to the 16bit support in 32bit windows
At first I wondered why we'd need an ARM version of Windows, but it's interesting. Being ARM though, it could break backward-compatibility with older software. Right now it only has a 32-bit x86 emulator, so 64-bit x86 Windows software won't run on it.
--- TRACKER1 wrote --
WinRT was a ground-up rewrite of the core Windows APIs, iirc... in
practice, Windows RT only allowed for modern/managed applications (part
windows port, part winrt), which was problematic for legacy/performance.
The newer Windows on ARM does have a Windows-on-Windows emulation for
x86 apps on the ARM side, similar to the 16bit support in 32bit windows
Someone I worked with bought a RT Surface (after I told him not to). We couldn't even put the VPN on it. Useless.
I think in the end, MS really does want to find a path to dropping
legacy apps in general. They've had several attempts so far, I think
they were just a bit early, and too restrictive with Windows RT.
I think in the end, MS really does want to find a path to dropping
legacy apps in general. They've had several attempts so far, I think
they were just a bit early, and too restrictive with Windows RT.
By "legacy apps", do you mean Windows desktop & command line software?
I'm not sure it would be a wise move to drop support for that stuff. I haven't even seen a big move to the new-style Windows apps (at least, I currently don't use any).
By "legacy apps", do you mean Windows desktop & command line software?
I'm not sure it would be a wise move to drop support for that stuff.
I haven't even seen a big move to the new-style Windows apps (at
least, I currently don't use any).
I mostly mean code that isn't portable.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 10-01-20 23:07, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
People at home are solving real problems that they face, where the corporate world is making a product for the corporate world. Some of
the home developed stuff is just bored devs creating a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, but others are just people creating what
they need. Some very useful programs to me are simply ones created by someone at home, whether it a 2 Factor Authenticator shell script, a program to delete spam from your POP account before downloading it (I
used to use a basic one for years, then created one myself which
handled unicode correctly), a backup program (DAR), among many others.
Yes, some good examples there. I've cobbled together a few things, including a ham radio remote base written mostly in BASH, but making
use of a couple of open source ham radio packages to manage commands
and control the remote base radio, plus some GNU utilities for various internal functions. The reason I wrote it is because at the time, all remote base solutions available were proprietary, ofte, single OS,
while I wanted to be able to mix and match my OSs, run the server side
on Linux and even offer the possibility of control from a radio on an attached repeater.
The system was neglected for a while, but received a number of upgrades during COVID-19 and now forms the core of my VHF/UHF station. :) I
added a layer of "idiot proofing" (in the form of a wrapper shell
script), to make it harder for me to accidently cross link local
repeaters to Internet based systems. :)
I'll leave you at that low level stuff. I'm more of an integrator,
taking the bits that others build and plugging them together in new
ways. :)
Like Dr Frankenstein.
LOL yep. :D
On 10-02-20 08:52, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-
At first I wondered why we'd need an ARM version of Windows, but it's interesting. Being ARM though, it could break backward-compatibility
with older software. Right now it only has a 32-bit x86 emulator, so 64-bit x86 Windows software won't run on it.
On 09-13-20 22:16, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
For me its more "I'm lazy, and I want to get something done as easily
and quickly as possible". So I work on automating and convienience. I
do financial reports for a charity, so I've automated some of that reporting with groff, a simple program in D to take data in CSV format
and output the groff template, I use gnuplot, bash and end up with a
PDF.A lot of the convienience
comes from what data source you choose to use. It's more work
initially, but when it comes to those 6 monthly reports, I just export data from a few accounts, put any comments in specific text files in
the template, run a script and its done. Same for other reports, I
just put a little data in a simple CSV, run a script and a full report
is generated.
As long as *I* get to choose the specifics, it works well.
On 10-02-20 08:48, Tracker1 wrote to Nightfox <=-
I think in the end, MS really does want to find a path to dropping
legacy apps in general. They've had several attempts so far, I think
they were just a bit early, and too restrictive with Windows RT.
The Mega65, the attempt at creating the Commodore 65 mostly uses FPGA.
It will be based on the Commodore 65, with a Commodore 64 mode. The
idea of recreating old ones is probably the most exciting development
in computing for many years for me, or at the very least, allowing
people to develop new types of computers from scratch.
I would like to see more niche platforms.
is usually colorized. Black & white/monochrome screens have their own retro feel too though.gives me an idea to setup a bunch of greyscale / bright / dim menus for my bbs...
hollowone wrote to Dennisk <=-
The Mega65, the attempt at creating the Commodore 65 mostly uses FPGA.
It will be based on the Commodore 65, with a Commodore 64 mode. The
idea of recreating old ones is probably the most exciting development
in computing for many years for me, or at the very least, allowing
people to develop new types of computers from scratch.
I would like to see more niche platforms.
Speaking of modern C64 clones. I own The C64Maxi with the real keyboard and shape.
HDMI output and USB connection to external drive to load disk, tape,
cart images and programs.
This is how I run C64 stuff these days.
But what I can't wait to see finished is Commander X-16. https://www.commanderx16.com/forum/index.php?/home/
This computer is made by couple of enthusiasts driven by the 8-bit Guy (YTber) for a while.
One of my friends from Dallas is contributting and I hope to get my
hands on this hardware as soon as it will be ready.
I'd played with the emulator though. Imagine 16bit version of C64
original CPU not in FPGA but a real thing plugged in.
Full compatibility with C64 but extra modes that put this computer with
a capabilities of strong 486 with VGA.
Similar things are happening in the Atari and in the Amiga worlds.
What I'm curious more and more about is to make custom rPI OS or to
make my own concept computer on the FPGA.
Currently reading lots of books regarding micro computer foundamentals
and FPGA programming/modelling techniques to learn as much as possible
to confirm the challenge, but idea itself is cool enough to grab the books.
backward-compatibility with older software. Right now it only has a
32-bit x86 emulator, so 64-bit x86 Windows software won't run on it.
Given that most Windows software still seems to be 32 bit, that may not be as big a limitation as you think. Yes, there is more 64 bit software for Windows, but a lot is 32 bit only. Time will tell how it goes.
On 10-03-20 23:05, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I've seen (and use) some 64-bit Windows software, but yeah, it seems
that a lot of Windows software is still available in a 32-bit version.
hollowone wrote to Dennisk <=-
The Mega65, the attempt at creating the Commodore 65 mostly uses FPGA.
It will be based on the Commodore 65, with a Commodore 64 mode. The
idea of recreating old ones is probably the most exciting development
in computing for many years for me, or at the very least, allowing
people to develop new types of computers from scratch.
I would like to see more niche platforms.
Speaking of modern C64 clones. I own The C64Maxi with the real keyboard and shape.
HDMI output and USB connection to external drive to load disk, tape,
cart images and programs.
This is how I run C64 stuff these days.
But what I can't wait to see finished is Commander X-16. https://www.commanderx16.com/forum/index.php?/home/
This computer is made by couple of enthusiasts driven by the 8-bit Guy (YTber) for a while.
One of my friends from Dallas is contributting and I hope to get my
hands on this hardware as soon as it will be ready.
I'd played with the emulator though. Imagine 16bit version of C64
original CPU not in FPGA but a real thing plugged in.
Full compatibility with C64 but extra modes that put this computer with
a capabilities of strong 486 with VGA.
Similar things are happening in the Atari and in the Amiga worlds.
What I'm curious more and more about is to make custom rPI OS or to
make my own concept computer on the FPGA.
Currently reading lots of books regarding micro computer foundamentals
and FPGA programming/modelling techniques to learn as much as possible
to confirm the challenge, but idea itself is cool enough to grab the books.
How is it as an emulator? Is it close to the real deal?
I am looking forward to the Commander X16, but I'm also looking at the Mega65. I'd like both, but if I could only get one (and its going to be hard to justify filling the house with both), it would be the Mega65.
My other reservation about the Commander X16 is they have adopted a controversial and problematic "code of conduct", which has caused
issues for people associated with such projects.
It will be interesting to see how this ARM based version goes. I
wouldn't mind giving it a run.
Now, if they can get the NXVDM subsystem working on it, I could
finally have my retro-mod system running on a custom-built tiny ARM
box. Full screen vDOS for text apps, DOSBOX with Windows 3.1, and wrap
it all around a retro looking case. :)
There's always going to be some breaks, especially between platforms... that's the main reason Windows RT was centered around managed code
(.Net Framework) to avoid most of those in the given apps.
I am looking forward to the Commander X16, but I'm also looking at the Mega65. I'd like both, but if I could only get one (and its going to be hard to justify filling the house with both), it would be the Mega65.
My other reservation about the Commander X16 is they have adopted a controversial and problematic "code of conduct", which has caused issues for people associated with such projects.
What code of conduct do you mean? I'm not aware about any controversy beside the fact that it takes ages for them to finish the product.
/h1
... -= I must say I love this cryptic world of BBSes more and more =-
I mostly mean code that isn't portable.
If Microsoft only wants Windows to run portable code, I'd think there would be a substantial speed hit. I know .NET code runs fairly fast, but it still requires a runtime machine similar to Java, which adds some overhead compared to running code that directly runs on the hardware. I have a hard time believing they'd want to eliminate the ability to run non-portable code.. There are certain applications where it's still important to get as much speed as you can.
And there was a time when programming languages like C was referred to as "portable assembly" since you could compile it on pretty much any machine but it was still fairly close to the hardware..
Mostly node.js on my current project(s) though, which I prefer even if slightly less well performing, mostly because of what the Node ecosystem offers not to mention much higher productivity.
I think in the end, MS really does want to find a path to dropping
legacy apps in general. They've had several attempts so far, I think
they were just a bit early, and too restrictive with Windows RT.
I'm not sure how successful they'd be. Might push some to Linux. :)
I've seen (and use) some 64-bit Windows software, but yeah, it seems that a lot of Windows software is still available in a 32-bit version.
On 10-05-20 14:58, hollowone wrote to Vk3jed <=-
@VIA: VERT/AMIGAC
It will be interesting to see how this ARM based version goes. I
wouldn't mind giving it a run.
I keep telling you, this is the version I have at the office and it
runs just fine. Only few apps that come only with x64 client app on the desktop is problematic, but that will be solved by MS by end of
November with x64 emulator added to the stack as well.
On 10-05-20 15:48, Tracker1 wrote to Vk3jed <=-
The money makers these days are Office 365 and Azure... with that push, they've already decreased expenditures for Windows, I'm not sure MS
cares *THAT* much if people migrate. Though imo, Linux is still a much work experience for anything other than some system admins, developers
and power users.
On 10-05-20 16:04, Tracker1 wrote to Nightfox <=-lo
@VIA: VERT/TRN
On 10/3/2020 11:05 PM, Nightfox wrote:
I've seen (and use) some 64-bit Windows software, but yeah, it seems that a
t of Windows software is still available in a 32-bit version.
Worth noting that 32-bit apps in 64-bit windows is still better...
windows 32-bit takes device addresses out of the 4gb limit total. With 64bit, each 32-bit windows app gets a separate (up to) 4gb of address space.
hollowone wrote to Dennisk <=-
I am looking forward to the Commander X16, but I'm also looking at the Mega65. I'd like both, but if I could only get one (and its going to be hard to justify filling the house with both), it would be the Mega65.
My other reservation about the Commander X16 is they have adopted a controversial and problematic "code of conduct", which has caused
issues for people associated with such projects.
What code of conduct do you mean? I'm not aware about any controversy beside the fact that it takes ages for them to finish the product.
Vk3jed wrote to Tracker1 <=-
On 10-05-20 15:48, Tracker1 wrote to Vk3jed <=-
The money makers these days are Office 365 and Azure... with that push, they've already decreased expenditures for Windows, I'm not sure MS
cares *THAT* much if people migrate. Though imo, Linux is still a much work experience for anything other than some system admins, developers
and power users.
Linux is simple for either the tech types (like many of us), or those whose needs are very simple - say just a web browser. It's the
inbetween that can have a tough time. :) Also, it does depend on
previous experience - if all you've known is Windows, Linux IS going to
be a learning curve, and vice-versa. :)
Mostly node.js on my current project(s) though, which I prefer even if
slightly less well performing, mostly because of what the Node ecosystem
offers not to mention much higher productivity.
One thing I don't really like about JavaScript is that outside of a web browser, there typically isn't a debugger like what you'd get with an IDE for compiled languages like C++, C#, etc.. Sometimes you can't set a breakpoint and step through the code to debug it. And since JavaScript isn't a compiled languge, it can fail silently if there's a problem in the code somewhere. Sometimes you have to debug with print statements to figure out what's going on.
The money makers these days are Office 365 and Azure... with that push,
they've already decreased expenditures for Windows, I'm not sure MS
cares *THAT* much if people migrate. Though imo, Linux is still a much
work experience for anything other than some system admins, developers
and power users.
Linux is simple for either the tech types (like many of us), or those whose needs are very simple - say just a web browser. It's the inbetween that can have a tough time. :) Also, it does depend on previous experience - if all you've known is Windows, Linux IS going to be a learning curve, and vice-versa.
:)
There is exactly a debugger for JS outside the browser... you can use it with Node projects via Webstorm (Jetbrains), VS Code, Visual Studio and other IDE platforms.
finally, Intel. And it looks like soon there will be a 4th generation
- ARM.
On 10-06-20 22:45, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I've gotten a couple of friend onto Linux, neither of them quite as proficient as I am, but they do know their way around. They've managed just fine with Linux. It becomes a problem when you want to do tricky stuff, but just for day to day use, installing software from the repositories, its not really harder than Windows.
On 10-06-20 19:56, Tracker1 wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Until you run updates and your main application's configuration file is broken and will no longer load. Or the driver for device X no longer works with the updated kernel, and you need to (re)install the device driver manually. Both have happened to me, only from updates, and I
doubt any novice would have been able to deal by themselelves.
I did have one of my grandmothers on linux (before she passed a couple years ago), and didn't have any serious issues (a couple websites
didn't work right with adblock) though, I did have to completely backup her user profile, manually install the latest Ubuntu, and restore the
user profile. This was because she hadn't been doing updates, and a website was complaining that her browser was too old. Ubuntu had discontinued the apt repo for her 3yo version at that point. Made sure
to enable automatic updates after that.
In any case, it was okay for her only because she had someone (me) to
deal with technical issues. Without that support, it's not reasonable. And for those orgs with support, even then Windows has some
encroachments. User and access management, security software related
and many other things are much easier with Windows. Even Mac has been pretty painful in a few corporate environments I've been in (having preferred mac to windows).
I like Linux, but it's still not there yet. I do like ChromeOS for
most people that only need a web browser though.
Until you run updates and your main application's configuration file is broken and will no longer load. Or the driver for device X no longer
works with the updated kernel, and you need to (re)install the device
driver manually. Both have happened to me, only from updates, and I
doubt any novice would have been able to deal by themselelves.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
On 10-06-20 22:45, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I've gotten a couple of friend onto Linux, neither of them quite as proficient as I am, but they do know their way around. They've managed just fine with Linux. It becomes a problem when you want to do tricky stuff, but just for day to day use, installing software from the repositories, its not really harder than Windows.
Although one can argue that Windows can be a lot harder, because
sometimes you have to do Registry hacks to make tweaks. At least in Linux, it's more likely to be a text config file somewhere. :)
Vk> Although one can argue that Windows can be a lot harder, because
Vk> sometimes you have to do Registry hacks to make tweaks. At least in
Vk> Linux, it's more likely to be a text config file somewhere. :)
Many times with Windows, I couldn't figure out how to fix the problem, as the system was unstable, or would not boot. I had to format/reinstall. With Linux, there are difficulties, but I've always been able to work around a fix.
What I really want is a Canon CAT-looking device like Crash
Override used in Hackers, or a cyberspace deck from Neuromancer.
Hollywood influenced me.
There is exactly a debugger for JS outside the browser... you can use it
with Node projects via Webstorm (Jetbrains), VS Code, Visual Studio and
other IDE platforms.
Can you use it to debug JS embedded in other programs, such as Synchronet JS scripts, etc.?
Until you run updates and your main application's configuration file is
broken and will no longer load. Or the driver for device X no longer
works with the updated kernel, and you need to (re)install the device
driver manually. Both have happened to me, only from updates, and I
doubt any novice would have been able to deal by themselelves.
I generally don't update the kernel, unless I have a really compelling reason to, because I often have extra modules and other things that depend on the exact kernel. I haven't had too many issues with broken configs though.
I did have one of my grandmothers on linux (before she passed a couple
years ago), and didn't have any serious issues (a couple websites
didn't work right with adblock) though, I did have to completely backup
her user profile, manually install the latest Ubuntu, and restore the
user profile. This was because she hadn't been doing updates, and a
website was complaining that her browser was too old. Ubuntu had
discontinued the apt repo for her 3yo version at that point. Made sure
to enable automatic updates after that.
Ahh, OK. One thing I do find annoying is repo updates of things like web browsers are less frequent or timely than what developers like Mozilla push out
to Windows users.
In any case, it was okay for her only because she had someone (me) to
deal with technical issues. Without that support, it's not reasonable.
And for those orgs with support, even then Windows has some
encroachments. User and access management, security software related
and many other things are much easier with Windows. Even Mac has been
pretty painful in a few corporate environments I've been in (having
preferred mac to windows).
Yes, I have worked with Macs in a Windows shop, and they did require more effort to integrate. When sone right, Linux can be a bit easier to integrate.
Winbind is awesome in a Windows domain environment. :)
I like Linux, but it's still not there yet. I do like ChromeOS for
most people that only need a web browser though.
I've heard good things about ChromeOS for that use case, but have never seen t.
On 10-10-20 14:10, Tracker1 wrote to Vk3jed <=-
And, when I've run dist upgrades, all kinds of crap typically breaks, which you eventually have to do, or you stop seeing updates... which
does mean a new kernel.
It wasn chrome's PPK, but the version of Ubuntu itself was
discontinued, so updates were completely broken.
Winbind is awesome in a Windows domain environment. :)
it's basically a browser with an extended (browser based) toolbar. You can install a side-channel linux distro and other tooling... but it's basically desktop Chrome or kind of a stripped down android in a way. There's some nice security features and all around works *really* well, since most app info is stored online... you can just login to a new device, poof it works... On the cheaper side, it's enough to not worry about so much if it breaks or gets stolen.
Again, for most people, they're pretty great and I can see why they're really popular for kids, and I think they're great for older people without as much computer exposure or experience.
| Sysop: | Gate Keeper |
|---|---|
| Location: | Shelby, NC |
| Users: | 719 |
| Nodes: | 20 (0 / 20) |
| Uptime: | 114:53:10 |
| Calls: | 9,260 |
| Calls today: | 2 |
| Files: | 5,288 |
| D/L today: |
2 files (335K bytes) |
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