Andeddu wrote to Underminer <=-
Re: Before Bandwidth / After Bandwidth (BB/AB)
By: Underminer to Andeddu on Fri Sep 18 2020 11:22 am
The extreme brightside to that is that we could and should use this chang to start prioritizing walkable neighbourhoods combined with mixed use transit hubs. If people aren't having to commute into the office everyday and we can make the areas we live in less needing of vehicles, we could reduce the needed automobile load and encourage more walking/biking. This would not only reduce noise and pollution to help make our living spaces more enjoyable, but also raise the average health situation of the population which would help to bolster us against future pandemics.
I agree that this will be considered somewhat a template for future cities. I do not believe denizens in densely populated areas are going to do much travelling due to remote working, etc... we are already starting to see almost self-sufficent mini neighbourhoods which represent their own eco-systems. A lot of new towns in the UK are following this model of towns split up into 5-10 districts which are identical in design which have a small shopping area within the centre of the district, surrounded by housing all within walking distance of the shopping area. These districts have a combination of large, medium and small houses along with flats and social housing. There's no affluent area or poor area as these districts appear to be seperate and identical to all other other districts that form the greater town. Each district within the commuter town is connected by a long arterial road which thererafter connects to a highway. The towns are very pleasant but sterile as it's all planned and there's no natrual sprawl of any description... every aspect is designed to a tee and nothing happened by accident.
I strongly believe that the "mega-city" was a bad idea, and that many cities have grown larger than they should. We will reevaluate progress and find th cities have a point where they become too large, where the cost of size outweighs the benefit and bigger is not better. They may end up a historica curiosity.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
This shit won't last. Humans will fuck it up. You think because we can use Zoom we don't need to go to work anymore? That's nuts. People aren't made to stay at home all the time. It may be could for some computer nerds but overall people need people to be productive. They need to collaborate. Enjoy your new found jobs for now. It's not gonna last. As an employer I need to keep an eye on you. Why? Cause you can't be trusted to give me an honest days work.
I strongly believe that the "mega-city" was a bad idea, and that many cities have grown larger than they should. We will reevaluate progress and find that cities have a point where they become too large, where the cost of size outweighs the benefit and bigger is not better. They may end up a historical curiosity.
This shit won't last. Humans will fuck it up. You think because we can use Zoom we don't need to go to work anymore? That's nuts. People aren't made to stay at home all the time. It may be could for some computer nerds but overall people need people to be productive. They need to collaborate.
Enjoy your new found jobs for now. It's not gonna last. As an employer I need to keep an eye on you. Why? Cause you can't be trusted to give me an honest days work.
This shit won't last. Humans will fuck it up. You think because we can use Zoom we don't need to go to work anymore? That's nuts. Peoplehistorical
aren't made to stay at home all the time. It may be could for some computer nerds but overall people need people to be productive. They
need to collaborate. Enjoy your new found jobs for now. It's not gonna last. As an employer I need to keep an eye on you. Why? Cause you can't
be trusted to give me an honest days work.
I strongly believe that the "mega-city" was a bad idea, and that many cities have grown larger than they should. We will reevaluate progress and find that cities have a point where they become too large, where the cost of size outweighs the benefit and bigger is not better. They may end up a
curiosity.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
Synchronet End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
---
Synchronet Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Mon Sep 21 2020 09:49 pm
Andeddu wrote to Underminer <=-
Re: Before Bandwidth / After Bandwidth (BB/AB)
By: Underminer to Andeddu on Fri Sep 18 2020 11:22 am
The extreme brightside to that is that we could and should use this chang to start prioritizing walkable neighbourhoods combined with mixed use transit hubs. If people aren't having to commute into the office everyday and we can make the areas we live in less needing of vehicles, we could reduce the needed automobile load and encourage more walking/biking. This would not only reduce noise and pollution to help make our living spaces more enjoyable, but also raise the average health situation of the population which would help to bolster us against future pandemics.
I agree that this will be considered somewhat a template for future cities. I do not believe denizens in densely populated areas are going to do much travelling due to remote working, etc... we are already starting to see almost self-sufficent mini neighbourhoods which represent their own eco-systems. A lot of new towns in the UK are following this model of towns split up into 5-10 districts which are identical in design which have a small shopping area within the centre of the district, surrounded by housing all within walking distance of the shopping area. These districts have a combination of large, medium and small houses along with flats and social housing. There's no affluent area or poor area as these districts appear to be seperate and identical to all other other districts that form the greater town. Each district within the commuter town is connected by a long arterial road which thererafter connects to a highway. The towns are very pleasant but sterile as it's all planned and there's no natrual sprawl of any description... every aspect is designed to a tee and nothing happened by accident.
I strongly believe that the "mega-city" was a bad idea, and that many cities have grown larger than they should. We will reevaluate progress and find th cities have a point where they become too large, where the cost of size outweighs the benefit and bigger is not better. They may end up a historica curiosity.
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
When I think of "mega cities," I think of the building in the movie
Dredd, which in itself was supposed to a self contained city of 50k people, with commercial, residential, and industrial zones, and it's
own built-in hospital and police and fire department.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Mon Sep 21 2020 09:49 pm
I strongly believe that the "mega-city" was a bad idea, and that many cities have grown larger than they should. We will reevaluate progress and find that cities have a point where they become too large, where the cost of size outweighs the benefit and bigger is not better. They may end up a historical curiosity.
Megacities are going to feature in the future. There are several smart-cities in development at the moment which are going to fit the description of "megacity". Neom city in Saudi Arabia is one such city
and it will be larger than NYC by the time it's fully constructed. I
think with careful urban planning, megacities can be large, efficient
and pleasent to live in.
When I think of "mega cities," I think of the building in the movie Dredd, which in itself was supposed to a self contained city of 50k people, with commercial, residential, and industrial zones, and it's own built-in hospital and police and fire department.
Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-
When I think of "mega cities," I think of the building in the movie
Dredd, which in itself was supposed to a self contained city of 50k people, with commercial, residential, and industrial zones, and it's
own built-in hospital and police and fire department.
Underminer wrote to Sandman <=-
I say this as a fellow employer: if you can't trust your employees to
give you an honest day's work either you have the wrong people, or you
are falling short on your team building and motivation skills.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Megacities are going to feature in the future. There are several smart-cities in development at the moment which are going to fit the description of "megacity". Neom city in Saudi Arabia is one such city
and it will be larger than NYC by the time it's fully constructed. I
think with careful urban planning, megacities can be large, efficient
and pleasent to live in.
Andeddu wrote to Sandman <=-
You're right. I think I would go stir-crazy if I were stuck in the
house all day every day. I suppose I would build a small outhouse
"office" in the yard so I wouldn't feel like I was spending all my time
in the same property.
Most of the larger corporate employers seem to be
amenable to remote working so I wouldn't be surprised to see it become
an option for incoming employees.
or just a fad. Also think about how much improved the enviroment would
be if office workers remained in a fixed location.
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Sandman to Dennisk on Mon Sep 21 2020 02:38 pm
This shit won't last. Humans will fuck it up. You think because we
can use Zoom we don't need to go to work anymore? That's nuts.
People aren't made to stay at home all the time. It may be could for
some computer nerds but overall people need people to be productive.
They need to collaborate. Enjoy your new found jobs for now. It's
not gonna last. As an employer I need to keep an eye on you. Why?
Cause you can't be trusted to give me an honest days work.
I say this as a fellow employer: if you can't trust your employees to give you an honest day's work either you have the wrong people, or you are falling short on your team building and motivation skills. Feeling watched all the time tends to LOWER productivity over time in my experiences.
remote working so I wouldn't be surprised to see it become an option for incoming employees. With another round of national lockdowns seemingly on the horizon, remote working will be handed another extended run so we'll see if it's a genuinely innovative idea, or just a fad. Also think about how much improved the enviroment would be if office workers remained in a fixed location.
No, we don't. Most of my company is working from home, and it functions just fine. Some of us need to go to work, because that is where the machines are. Perhaps poor companies can't manage work from home (where the style of work allows, obviously).
By the way, if you can't trust your employees, what does that say about you as an employer?
I'm selling my hybrid-electric car, as going from 2200 miles/month
(mostly commute miles) to 200-300 negates the need for it, and I'm
saving 2-2 1/2 hours a day that I can use to home school kids, clean
up around the house, and be more flexible at work. I have customers
on the east coast, and I can be "at work" that much sooner in the
mornings WFH.
i've had a lot of jobs over the years. people need to be watched.
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Moondog to Dennisk on Mon Sep 21 2020 02:54 pm
When I think of "mega cities," I think of the building in the movie Dredd which in itself was supposed to a self contained city of 50k people, with commercial, residential, and industrial zones, and it's own built-in hospital and police and fire department.
I thought that as well. Those massive metallic brutalist buildings would be suitable in a future world where bandwidth reigns. If no one is required to leave the building, then the powers that be can contain the population in self-contained block towers dotted over the blighted cityscape. That was the solution to overcrowding.
I'm selling my hybrid-electric car, as going from 2200 miles/month
dont you need a car to go shopping or to go anywhere?
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Dennisk to Sandman on Tue Sep 22 2020 10:00 pm
No, we don't. Most of my company is working from home, and it functions just fine. Some of us need to go to work, because that is where the machines are. Perhaps poor companies can't manage work from home (where the style of work allows, obviously).
my company is poor and it's cheaper for people to work from home.
By the way, if you can't trust your employees, what does that say about you as an employer?
people are people and you cant trust them.
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: MRO to Underminer on Tue Sep 22 2020 05:28 pm
i've had a lot of jobs over the years. people need to be watched.
People need to be motivated and feel appreciated, not be watched. I've never k every time unless you're dealing with someone who is just a bad fit for th
Autonomy is a great job per but so is being recognized if you're doing good and could do more.
I want Kowloon Walled City, but with infrastructure.
If you can find some way to build passive climate control and energy
generation and food production into a megacity, you'd have the things
science fiction is written about.
Geothermal heat/power? My first thought is Iceland, but you've got
long periods of darkness, so solar/plant growth would be tough.
I'm fortunate that we have a 3 bedroom house, and my wife and I have
separate office spaces on different floors. Two decks, so we can all
take our laptops outside and work when need be, or take a conference
call and get some fresh air.
Companies in Silicon Valley and San Francisco are sick of paying
inflated rents. They've dabbled with remote work programs for years,
but poor managers want people in seats. That's finally changing, out
of necessity (although I'm sure some managers want to have a zoom
call every day at 8:30am to make sure everyone's in their respective
seats)
I'm selling my hybrid-electric car, as going from 2200 miles/month
(mostly commute miles) to 200-300 negates the need for it, and I'm
saving 2-2 1/2 hours a day that I can use to home school kids, clean
up around the house, and be more flexible at work. I have customers
on the east coast, and I can be "at work" that much sooner in the
mornings WFH.
at my company we realized that we didnt need a lot of these people once we let them work from home.
we analized what they were doing beforehand and it wasnt really benefitial to the company. so my company fired even more people.
I also get the impression that the idea of a self contained city building stemmed from the days when companies were stable and people regularly worked a
single job until retirement. Imagine getting a job, then HR finds a spot in the building your office is at, so you can come home at lunch, or see your
kids perform recitals at school without having to leave the main campus. That would fit inside a Henry Ford dream.
You cannot manage what you cannot measure. You may not have to watch people like a hawk, but you should apply some metrics or benchmarking, and meet with them to make sure an employee isn't being under utilized, or they're cutting corners because of training or abilty issues. Autonomy is a great job perk, but so is being recognized if you're doing good and could do more.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Tue Sep 22 2020 10:09 pm
They are not a desirable feature. That they may happen, they may, but it will be at a net cost. There is not a direct correlation between the significance of a city and its size. We have more people living in Dhaka than in Ancient Greece. Which one was more significant?
I think as cities get larger, the cultural and intellectual output per capita decreases. Demographics matters here, but I think if we have smaller, more numerous cities, we would have more cultural and intellectual output.
I think you're speaking for an ideological perspective. I agree with
what you're saying however culture and intellectualism aren't
particularly high on the world agenda at the moment.
I don't know what the plans are for a hyper effiecient, clean and green city filled with cycle and pedestrian lanes, small electric cars and
the like, but I feel that's the direction we are going. A number of densely populated megacities are going to crop up in the near future
and I believe they are going to be the primary destination for most of
the world's populace.
Neom is considered our first real glimpse into mankind's "new future". Although it may operate within Saudi Arabia, it's a soverign economic
area with its own governmental framework and judicial system. I have
heard that this will be the model for the future and we are likely to
see independent economic areas crop up within nations in the coming decades.
Moondog wrote to Andeddu <=-Yeah, people move from job to job all the time now. They built apartment towers in Melbourne, then had trouble filling them. In the 20th century we kind of idealised this 'industrialised' mode of social organisation, but this has fallen out of favour and I predict will continue to do so.
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Andeddu to Moondog on Tue Sep 22 2020 12:05 pm
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Moondog to Dennisk on Mon Sep 21 2020 02:54 pm
When I think of "mega cities," I think of the building in the movie Dredd which in itself was supposed to a self contained city of 50k people, with commercial, residential, and industrial zones, and it's own built-in hospital and police and fire department.
I thought that as well. Those massive metallic brutalist buildings would be suitable in a future world where bandwidth reigns. If no one is required to leave the building, then the powers that be can contain the population in self-contained block towers dotted over the blighted cityscape. That was the solution to overcrowding.
I also get the impression that the idea of a self contained city
building stemmed from the days when companies were stable and people regularly worked a
single job until retirement. Imagine getting a job, then HR finds a
spot in the building your office is at, so you can come home at lunch,
or see your kids perform recitals at school without having to leave the main campus. That would fit inside a Henry Ford dream.
---
Andeddu wrote to Moondog <=-What happened to these company towns? Weren't some basically Communistic, where you had to buy everything from the same company, and that company we basically a government? The Soviet Union was one giant Company Town.
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Tue Sep 22 2020 08:09 pm
I also get the impression that the idea of a self contained city building stemmed from the days when companies were stable and people regularly worked a
single job until retirement. Imagine getting a job, then HR finds a spot in the building your office is at, so you can come home at lunch, or see your
kids perform recitals at school without having to leave the main campus. That would fit inside a Henry Ford dream.
We used to have massive employee villages/towns back when a single
company would roll into the area and employ everyone in some capacity
or another. With a huge number of business unable to continue due to
the economic situation and Facebook, Amazon, Netflix and Google (FANG) along with Microsoft consolodating their power, we could see monolithic corporations create and support entire communities once again... in
large brutalist towers like those seen in Mega City One!
---
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: MRO to Underminer on Tue Sep 22 2020 05:28 pm
i've had a lot of jobs over the years. people need to be watched.
People need to be motivated and feel appreciated, not be watched. I've never felt the need to watch my people, and I've always had one of if not the most productive teams in any of the organizations I've found myself in management with. Carrot beats stick every time unless you're dealing with someone who is just a bad fit for the position.
Re: Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: MRO to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Sep 22 2020 05:56 pm
I'm selling my hybrid-electric car, as going from 2200 miles/month
dont you need a car to go shopping or to go anywhere?
Some places have a fairly good public transit system. Where I live, you could potentially get away with not having a car and take busses and the light rail train. A car is more convenient, but public transit can do the job in my area.
Nightfox
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: MRO to Andeddu on Tue Sep 22 2020 05:50 pm
at my company we realized that we didnt need a lot of these people
once we let them work from home.
we analized what they were doing beforehand and it wasnt really
benefitial to the company. so my company fired even more people.
It depends on what your job is. If 99% of your output is computer based, you can be more or less effective working remotely from home.
MRO wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
dont you need a car to go shopping or to go anywhere?
Moondog wrote to Andeddu <=-
single job until retirement. Imagine getting a job, then HR finds a
spot in the building your office is at, so you can come home at lunch,
or see your kids perform recitals at school without having to leave the main campus. That would fit inside a Henry Ford dream.
MRO wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
dont you need a car to go shopping or to go anywhere?
Yes. We have 3 cars right now, as we bought my wife a new car and
have her old car and my Prius. I'm taking over her Subaru Crosstrek.
you can have that other shit too, but people are people. they need to be watched. ---
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: MRO to Underminer on Wed Sep 23 2020 09:56 pm
you can have that other shit too, but people are people. they need to be watched. ---
You sound like a liberal politician.
On 09-23-20 19:49, Andeddu wrote to MRO <=-
It depends on what your job is. If 99% of your output is computer
based, you can be more or less effective working remotely from home.
On 09-24-20 00:59, Dennisk wrote to Andeddu <=-
How big are cities supposed to get? 50 million? 100 million? Surely
there is a limit to growth.
Moondog wrote to Andeddu <=-
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Andeddu to Moondog on Tue Sep 22 2020 12:05 pm
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Moondog to Dennisk on Mon Sep 21 2020 02:54 pm
When I think of "mega cities," I think of the building in the movie Dr which in itself was supposed to a self contained city of 50k people, w commercial, residential, and industrial zones, and it's own built-in hospital and police and fire department.
I thought that as well. Those massive metallic brutalist buildings would suitable in a future world where bandwidth reigns. If no one is required leave the building, then the powers that be can contain the population in self-contained block towers dotted over the blighted cityscape. That was solution to overcrowding.
I also get the impression that the idea of a self contained city building stemmed from the days when companies were stable and people regularly worked a
single job until retirement. Imagine getting a job, then HR finds a spot in the building your office is at, so you can come home at lunch, or see your kids perform recitals at school without having to leave the main campus. That would fit inside a Henry Ford dream.
---Yeah, people move from job to job all the time now. They built apartment towers in Melbourne, then had trouble filling them. In the 20th century we kind of idealised this 'industrialised' mode of social organisation, but thi has fallen out of favour and I predict will continue to do so.
... What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind! - Homer S.
Andeddu wrote to Moondog <=-
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Tue Sep 22 2020 08:09 pm
I also get the impression that the idea of a self contained city building stemmed from the days when companies were stable and people regularly wor a
single job until retirement. Imagine getting a job, then HR finds a spo in the building your office is at, so you can come home at lunch, or see your
kids perform recitals at school without having to leave the main campus. That would fit inside a Henry Ford dream.
We used to have massive employee villages/towns back when a single company would roll into the area and employ everyone in some capacity or another. With a huge number of business unable to continue due to the economic situation and Facebook, Amazon, Netflix and Google (FANG) along with Microsoft consolodating their power, we could see monolithic corporations create and support entire communities once again... in large brutalist towers like those seen in Mega City One!
---What happened to these company towns? Weren't some basically Communistic, where you had to buy everything from the same company, and that company we basically a government? The Soviet Union was one giant Company Town.
... What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind! - Homer S.
You sound like a liberal politician.He sounds like someone that wants people to watch them while their using their home facilities.
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: MRO to Underminer on Wed Sep 23 2020 09:56 pm
you can have that other shit too, but people are people. they need
to be watched. ---
You sound like a liberal politician.
He sounds like someone that wants people to watch them while their using their home facilities.
Some companies still do this, but not at the extent they used to in the past. Christmas parties were big events, because it meant dressing up and going out for a meal and dancing on the company's tab. The other big thing so me companies would do is give the employees a turkey or ham around the holidays. At the place my brother worked, the canned hams got smaller each year. The company parties became departmental gatherings where the boss buys a round of drinks. Some places cater in or semi-fund a potluck.
buys a round of drinks. Some places cater in or semi-fund a potluck.
Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Dennisk to Moondog on Thu Sep 24 2020 01:41 am
Moondog wrote to Andeddu <=-
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Andeddu to Moondog on Tue Sep 22 2020 12:05 pm
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Moondog to Dennisk on Mon Sep 21 2020 02:54 pm
When I think of "mega cities," I think of the building in the movie Dr which in itself was supposed to a self contained city of 50k people, w commercial, residential, and industrial zones, and it's own built-in hospital and police and fire department.
I thought that as well. Those massive metallic brutalist buildings would suitable in a future world where bandwidth reigns. If no one is required leave the building, then the powers that be can contain the population in self-contained block towers dotted over the blighted cityscape. That was solution to overcrowding.
I also get the impression that the idea of a self contained city building stemmed from the days when companies were stable and people regularly worked a
single job until retirement. Imagine getting a job, then HR finds a spot in the building your office is at, so you can come home at lunch, or see your kids perform recitals at school without having to leave the main campus. That would fit inside a Henry Ford dream.
---Yeah, people move from job to job all the time now. They built apartment towers in Melbourne, then had trouble filling them. In the 20th century we kind of idealised this 'industrialised' mode of social organisation, but thi has fallen out of favour and I predict will continue to do so.
... What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind! - Homer S.
Up to 3/4 of the way through the 20th century, some corporations had a culture which extended outside the office or shop. This included sponsored sports leagues and teams, picnics, and other employee
oriented get togethers.
Some companies still do this, but not at the extent they used to in
the past. Christmas parties were big events, because it meant dressing
up and going out for a meal and dancing on the company's tab. The
other big thing so me companies would do is give the employees a turkey
or ham around the holidays. At the place my brother worked, the canned hams got smaller each year. The company parties became departmental gatherings where the boss buys a round of drinks. Some places cater in
or semi-fund a potluck.
Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Sep 24 2020 01:45 am
Andeddu wrote to Moondog <=-
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Moondog to Andeddu on Tue Sep 22 2020 08:09 pm
I also get the impression that the idea of a self contained city building stemmed from the days when companies were stable and people regularly wor a
single job until retirement. Imagine getting a job, then HR finds a spo in the building your office is at, so you can come home at lunch, or see your
kids perform recitals at school without having to leave the main campus. That would fit inside a Henry Ford dream.
We used to have massive employee villages/towns back when a single company would roll into the area and employ everyone in some capacity or another. With a huge number of business unable to continue due to the economic situation and Facebook, Amazon, Netflix and Google (FANG) along with Microsoft consolodating their power, we could see monolithic corporations create and support entire communities once again... in large brutalist towers like those seen in Mega City One!
---What happened to these company towns? Weren't some basically Communistic, where you had to buy everything from the same company, and that company we basically a government? The Soviet Union was one giant Company Town.
... What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind! - Homer S.
Not communistic at all. The stores and other supporting businesses
were all privately owned. In the case of Clark Equipment or Whirlpool, some executive officers invested in the town and built hotels or restauarants, but the rest of the commerce done was not a "company
store" style system like remote mining towns were run. Post WWII
housing communities were built by external development companies. If a company had it's own foundry, this would attract other companies
because of the available resource (foundry) and it's already
established that a railroad line has the facilities to bring in and
send out large quantities of materials.
The difference with a communist run operation is the city only exists
to support a single industry. Food and finished goods are subsidized
by the government so when the work disappears, so does the supply
chain of other goods. A town doesn't slowly dry up. It shuts down. There's little to no chance for smaller industry to move in or expand.
I'm basic my view on observation. The larger my city gets, the more that additional infrastructure costs. The cost of additional transport, updates etc increases for the same net benefit. We nearly spent in Melbourne over 10 BILLION dollars to get some people who take one freeway to work a few minutes faster. You have to keep adding lanes to freeways, expensive, just to keep travel times constant. Larger cities mean people live further from work, additional expense to keep travel time constant. You are running as fast as you can, just to stay in the same place.
Then, when your population grows, you are tearing down buildings to increase density, yet another complete waste of resources. Tearing down good infrastructure in order to accomodate more population, isntead of having it build anew elsewhere, duplicated urban centers.
We used to found new towns, now we are way to conservative, and in Melbourne, companies don't want to leave the city center, let alone move to other town. God knows the government has tried. The end result is more and more people thinking that this tiny, tiny geographic section of Australia is the only viable place to be. Unsustainable.
Not to mention high real estate costs, a complete drain on the economy. Saudi's are crazy, I wouldn't use them as a model! I wouldn NOT want our future to be based on anything that awful regime does.
How big are cities supposed to get? 50 million? 100 million? Surely there is a limit to growth.
What happened to these company towns? Weren't some basically Communistic, where you had to buy everything from the same company, and that company we basically a government? The Soviet Union was one giant Company Town.
yeah but they were computer based and they were not being effective.
maybe they never were effective and just physically being in the company with everyone else was hiding their uselessness.
Trantor in Asimov's Foundation?
Trantor was the political capital of the Galactic Empire in the books, and was literally a planet encased by a city.
On 09-25-20 01:53, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
I remember reading through the first Foundation book. It's very well written but a total slog to get through. I did like the premise of a
controlled civilisational collapse to ensure a quicker, less painful recovery.
my company did all kinds of stuff for the community. scholarships, volunteer work, various events. now those are all gone. those days of the turkeys are gone too. i dont know if any company that pays a truck to come up with a loa of frozen turkeys around thanksgiving.
MRO wrote to Underminer <=-
I say this as a fellow employer: if you can't trust your employees to give you an honest day's work either you have the wrong people, or you are falling short on your team building and motivation skills. Feeling watched all the time tends to LOWER productivity over time in my experiences.
i've had a lot of jobs over the years. people need to be watched.
I couldn't put those books down, really great story arc. Have them all here, somewhere. :)
controlled civilisational collapse to ensure a quicker, less painful recovery.
Yes, it's an interesting premise. The collapse of the Galactic Empire was based upon Gibbons' "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire".
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Sep 24 2020 12:59 am
I'm basic my view on observation. The larger my city gets, the more that additional infrastructure costs. The cost of additional transport, updates etc increases for the same net benefit. We nearly spent in Melbourne over 10 BILLION dollars to get some people who take one freeway to work a few minutes faster. You have to keep adding lanes to freeways, expensive, just to keep travel times constant. Larger cities mean people live further from work, additional expense to keep travel time constant. You are running as fast as you can, just to stay in the same place.
Then, when your population grows, you are tearing down buildings to increase density, yet another complete waste of resources. Tearing down good infrastructure in order to accomodate more population, isntead of having it build anew elsewhere, duplicated urban centers.
We used to found new towns, now we are way to conservative, and in Melbourne, companies don't want to leave the city center, let alone move to other town. God knows the government has tried. The end result is more and more people thinking that this tiny, tiny geographic section of Australia is the only viable place to be. Unsustainable.
Not to mention high real estate costs, a complete drain on the economy. Saudi's are crazy, I wouldn't use them as a model! I wouldn NOT want our future to be based on anything that awful regime does.
How big are cities supposed to get? 50 million? 100 million? Surely there is a limit to growth.
Infrastructure changes are awfully cost inefficient but that's because these are older cities that have to be retro-fitted with the newest innovations. I think the planners of the future see far enough and have
a good idea in regards to where we are going from a technological standpoint. I read 3-4 years ago that the people living within these cities are going to do very little travelling as shopping districts are going to be broken up and localised near to large residential tower blocks. It looks like now that remote working could play into this idea too. Big companies do not need a presence in geographically significant centres such as Melbourne, almost everything in relation to this can be carried out online on the cloud. I don't know how big these cities are going to be but I would guess they'd have a population of around 15-30 million people. I could be way off the mark and all the people I've
seen speak about it could be wrong, but I think this is the direction
we are heading. This is obviously clearly at odds with your vision of smaller towns and communities in a more deglobalized world.
On 09-26-20 00:24, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Yes, it's an interesting premise. The collapse of the Galactic Empire was based upon Gibbons' "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire".
I will try to source the next book and give that a read later on this year. I just thought that the first Foundation novel was a little too
slow burning for my liking.
I like the premise because it could easily apply to reality. All civilisations collapse, and an earlier controlled collapse could be
much kinder than a genuine decline and fall.
---What happened to these company towns? Weren't some basically Communistic where you had to buy everything from the same company, and that company w basically a government? The Soviet Union was one giant Company Town.
... What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind! - Homer S.
Not communistic at all. The stores and other supporting businesses were all privately owned. In the case of Clark Equipment or Whirlpool, some executive officers invested in the town and built hotels or restauarants, but the rest of the commerce done was not a "company store" style system like remote mining towns were run. Post WWII housing communities were built by external development companies. If a company had it's own foundry, this would attract other companies because of the available resource (foundry) and it's already established that a railroad line has the facilities to bring in and send out large quantities of materials.
The difference with a communist run operation is the city only exists to support a single industry. Food and finished goods are subsidized by the government so when the work disappears, so does the supply chain of other goods. A town doesn't slowly dry up. It shuts down. There's little to no chance for smaller industry to move in or expand.
I remember reading about some Company Towns which were quite controlling. I can't remember the book or the town, but it was one of those things that I r and it stuck with me. It might have been more the exception than the rule.
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Sep 24 2020 01:45 am
What happened to these company towns? Weren't some basically Communistic where you had to buy everything from the same company, and that company w basically a government? The Soviet Union was one giant Company Town.
Employee villages were basically like that, yes. The corporation dictated everyone's way of life. I think this model is still very much alive in China surprise surprise. In the UK, when these companies folded, the houses became available to people doing various jobs, and also became government owned soc housing. These are mostly impoverished areas now.
I'm basing my vision on what I think the future trends are. Remember how in the 2000's we were all going to work 3 days a week? Some projections, such as being able to shop from home were right, others were wrong. By the way, notice how that futurists are never challenged decades later? I would say MOST of the trends of the future didn't happen, or didn't have the effect that people foresaw.
So why do I think deglobalisation is the way of the future? A few reasons. First, there is a growing political and social scepticism about it. The EU is falling apart, there are MORE nations now than when I was born, as there have been splits, the Trans Pacific Partnership is dead and we are seeing global companies as being truly pathological. The globlist economy basically died in 2008, rising tensions with China, Trump, populists becoming popular, and the pro-globalist "establishment" that held respect and power in the 80s, and 90s is now much less respected. We don't have faith in the establishment like we used to. There is more political uncertainty, division, conflict, less respect. All these details matter.
As for cities, I see so, so many stories about increasing dysfunction. People are seeking to leave Melbourne. Sure, many people are coming in, but many are leaving. Infrastructure is falling behind, housing is unaffordable for so, so many. It's quite simply becoming less and less workable. The only thing that keeps me here is that Australia lacks options with regards to decent sized cities.
There will be large cities in the future, but they won't be the delightful, efficient utopias we thought, not will the be a model of the future. They will be the unfortunate legacy of a past that we can't quite get rid of yet.
Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-
Re: Before Bandwidth / After
By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sat Sep 26 2020 06:34 am
I'm basing my vision on what I think the future trends are. Remember how in the 2000's we were all going to work 3 days a week? Some projections, such as being able to shop from home were right, others were wrong. By the way, notice how that futurists are never challenged decades later? I would say MOST of the trends of the future didn't happen, or didn't have the effect that people foresaw.
So why do I think deglobalisation is the way of the future? A few reasons. First, there is a growing political and social scepticism about it. The EU is falling apart, there are MORE nations now than when I was born, as there have been splits, the Trans Pacific Partnership is dead and we are seeing global companies as being truly pathological. The globlist economy basically died in 2008, rising tensions with China, Trump, populists becoming popular, and the pro-globalist "establishment" that held respect and power in the 80s, and 90s is now much less respected. We don't have faith in the establishment like we used to. There is more political uncertainty, division, conflict, less respect. All these details matter.
As for cities, I see so, so many stories about increasing dysfunction. People are seeking to leave Melbourne. Sure, many people are coming in, but many are leaving. Infrastructure is falling behind, housing is unaffordable for so, so many. It's quite simply becoming less and less workable. The only thing that keeps me here is that Australia lacks options with regards to decent sized cities.
There will be large cities in the future, but they won't be the delightful, efficient utopias we thought, not will the be a model of the future. They will be the unfortunate legacy of a past that we can't quite get rid of yet.
I think the futurists are going to be proven right in the long-term.
They may have been wrong with their timings but I can certainly see
three day weeks coming our way in the near future due to automation. I
can sense the winds of change upon us. There is far too much going on right now to cling onto the old ways; with COVID-19, The Fourth
Industrial Revolution along with the government's inststance on carbon neutrality in the fight against climate change, our entire system and
way of life is going to become uprooted. We will have a better idea of
the future by 2025 as things start to fall into place.
My brain agrees with you as there does appear to be a more concerted effort for nations to become less reliant on global trade. Whichever
way you look at it, the West cannot rely on China for cheap goods
anymore. We are going to have to start manufacturing our own products. This plays into the deglobalisation aspect. My heart tells me that, for some reason, this will not happen. Most sane people can sense an
economic collapse in the near future. I think what we do after depends entirely on how bad the crash is - will it be a long running recession,
a sharp and devastating depression or a complete and utter calamity? In the worst case scenario, there will be no credit for industrialists to begin their new startups as the banks will be suffering from a
liquidity crisis, and many of them will collapse causing systemic
problems that may not be overcome without radical intervention. And the radical intervention will be to simply kick the can further down the
road.
I don't know what's going to happen, but I wouldn't take anything off
the table.
Andeddu wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
There is passive climate control in certain smaller future cities such
as Masdar City which, despite being situated in the UAE, is cooled by
the shape of the architecture and the layout of the streets.
If goverments are going to push carbon neutrality all these innovations are going to have to be put into place otherwise we will never have a "post-carbon economy".
Andeddu wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Where I am from we have been asked to work at home again and not make unnecessary trips outside of the house if possible.
employers are going to have to iron out whatever bugs they may have
with remote working as it'll be the only way they'll survive if we are going to undergo restrictions for a further 6 months.
way back in terms of the old ways. There really isn't a truly
compelling reason to have everyone congregate in an office block
anymore. We will all just have to adapt. The lack of daily commute is a noticible positive though as we will all have extra time to sleep, exercise and eat proper meals, etc...
---
Synchronet BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC,
PPC and PCW!
Andeddu wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
I want Kowloon Walled City, but with infrastructure.
That's such a facinating place. There's old footage on YouTube along
with a documentary about it. I would love to have explored it's uneven streets, narrow alleyways and unstable towers. A lot of the former residents have fond memories of living there.
Andeddu wrote to Moondog <=-
We used to have massive employee villages/towns back when a single
company would roll into the area and employ everyone in some capacity
or another. With a huge number of business unable to continue due to
the economic situation and Facebook, Amazon, Netflix and Google (FANG) along with Microsoft consolodating their power, we could see monolithic corporations create and support entire communities once again
Underminer wrote to Moondog <=-
That's kinda the point. You watch the metrics, see who needs
help/coaching over time, and focus on your lead measures instead of
your lag measures. Looking over someone's shoulder to ensure they're working in the moment is not only the laggiest of lag measures, but encourages people to drag out tasks just to look like they're working
when the boss comes by. If people feel appreciated, are well coached
and developed, and allowed to relax a bit they're way more productive.
MRO wrote to Nightfox <=-
i lived in a centralized area but having a car was still better.
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
Trantor was the political capital of the Galactic Empire in the books,
and was literally a planet encased by a city.
Tracker1 wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
In-Reply-To: <smb_getmsgidx
References: <smb_getmsgidx
Dennisk wrote to Andeddu <=-
I'm confident of a crash, or a series of crashes, or as James Howard Kunstler put it a Long Emergency.
I'm petrified that my kids are going to experience a climate
collapse, a massive die-off, and we're going to move to a
post-carbon, post-oil economy whether we choose to or not. I think
the last half of the 21st century is going to make the 20th century's changes look like baby steps.
Come to think of it, I've heard of houses cooled in Arizona by
running water pipes underground - they pull up the driveway, install
a circulating system of pipes underground, and the temperature
differential works both ways - radiating stored heat in winter and
cooler water when the ambient temperature is high.
I'm confident of a crash, or a series of crashes, or as James Howard Kunstler put it a Long Emergency.
The three day week was predicated on the assumption that hours worked is
the way it is due to it being a production requirement. But I think
this assumption is wrong. The 40 hour week isn't based on what needs to
be done, but what the system requires to function. As we become more productive, the potential for creating surplus increases, so that
surplus then drives marketing and further consumerism. The trend is
that as we can produce the same in less time, we end up producing more
and the system adjusts to the higher consumption. The stagnating wages ensure that we can't afford to work less hours. David Graeber talks of
how the system needs to keep us working full time for control, and I
think he is right.
On 09-25-20 16:28, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Vk3jed <=-
@VIA: VERT/REALITY
Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-
Trantor was the political capital of the Galactic Empire in the books,
and was literally a planet encased by a city.
AppleTV + was in the middle of a Foundation TV series when Covid hit.
I don't think anyone's ever done one before, but the idea of a
civilization falling into disrepair might resonate these days.
Time for me to go back and re-read them.
Vk3jed wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Yes, that would be worth me activating Apple TV, just to watch, if it comes to fruition. :) 2020 has been a dry year for movies and TV. :/
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Yes, that would be worth me activating Apple TV, just to watch, if it comes to fruition. :) 2020 has been a dry year for movies and TV. :/
CBS All Access looks like it's remaking "The Stand". I'd pay for
a month to watch that, loved the book and the original
miniseries.
On 09-28-20 11:52, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Vk3jed <=-
@VIA: VERT/REALITY
Vk3jed wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Yes, that would be worth me activating Apple TV, just to watch, if it comes to fruition. :) 2020 has been a dry year for movies and TV. :/
CBS All Access looks like it's remaking "The Stand". I'd pay for a
month to watch that, loved the book and the original miniseries.
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