What code of conduct do you mean? I'm not aware about any controversy beside the fact that it takes ages for them to finish the product.

The creator of the Code of Conduct has specifically said that it was
for political purposes to delegitimise meritocracy and pushes heavily
the debunked "critical theory", and has (ironically) a VERY toxic personality.

Are we talking about 8bit Guy or somebody else in his team? I personally know Kevin Williams from Tex Electric who supports the project, I consider him a true retro fan and a very nice guy, true Texan but not a political guy for sure. Never spotted any political agenda in their discussions on FB and that's the only place where I kind of follow them (considering me not being too much active on FB anyway).

Anyway, as for the conduct itself, do you refer to this document:

https://github.com/commanderx16/x16-emulator/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md

?

I really, really dislike when people seek to insert political agendas
into tech. Many developers are pretty oblivious to these attempts at political action, because its easier just to go along with it than
argue against it.

Is that part about that pledges about people's equality regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and bla bla bla that is particularly too politican in your opinion or something else I've missed there?

/h1

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hollowone wrote to Dennisk <=-

What code of conduct do you mean? I'm not aware about any controversy beside the fact that it takes ages for them to finish the product.

The creator of the Code of Conduct has specifically said that it was
for political purposes to delegitimise meritocracy and pushes heavily
the debunked "critical theory", and has (ironically) a VERY toxic personality.

Are we talking about 8bit Guy or somebody else in his team? I
personally know Kevin Williams from Tex Electric who supports the
project, I consider him a true retro fan and a very nice guy, true
Texan but not a political guy for sure. Never spotted any political
agenda in their discussions on FB and that's the only place where I
kind of follow them (considering me not being too much active on FB anyway).

Anyway, as for the conduct itself, do you refer to this document:

https://github.com/commanderx16/x16-emulator/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT .md

?

I really, really dislike when people seek to insert political agendas
into tech. Many developers are pretty oblivious to these attempts at political action, because its easier just to go along with it than
argue against it.

Is that part about that pledges about people's equality regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and bla bla bla that is particularly
too politican in your opinion or something else I've missed there?

/h1

To quote the creator of the Contributer Covenant, Coraline Ada Ehmke;
"Some people are saying that the Contributor Covenant is a political
document, and they're right".

And that is nothing compared to other things she's said. You can see
tweets directly from her where she gloats over the trouble it causes,
overtly states its about dismantling meritocracy, her hatred and
bitterness towards certain identities. There is no room for debate as
to whether this document has a hidden agenda. The only question that
remains is, do you want to allow yourself to be a victim of it?

I don't believe that the 8 Bit Guy or Kevin Williams is trying to do
things overtly political. I would say most likely, that the main people
behind the project are unaware of the problems with it. Likely some
minor player, or someone who isn't even involved simply recommended or
pushed it, and people such situations tend to just go along if its sold
well. Most developers just don't care about that kind of thing, which
makes it EASIER to insert into someone elses project. You are told a
Code of Conduct would be good, and lo, behold, I just happen to have one
for you!!

If you do some googling, you'll find a bit more about it, the drama that happened with the Linux kernel, and developers threatining to pull the
"kill switch" in response. Look up Sage Sharps attack of developer
Theodore Tso. Sage Sharp is another activist. Coraline Ada Ehmke, the
CoC creator has been known to stir up trouble and aggresively enforce
the code. (Sage Sharp is another activist by the way).

They aren't even major devs. Coraline Ada Ehmke has some minor Ruby
projects, very little. Hell, *I've* written more production code than
she has!

The problem isn't specifically the code (although one has to wonder why
a Code of Conduct for software development has to include so much detail
on standard SJW tropes, that alone is suspicious). The problem is that
there are activists who masquerade as developers, who's primary concern
is to dismantle things. They have issue with developers being male,
being white, with meritocracy, and they want SOCIAL change. The Code of Conduct is a way in, because of its focus it allows aggressive
takedowns.

You DON'T want a Code of Conduct that allows a Social Justice Warrior to
decide for you who works on your project, who is good for it. Coraline
and others have OPENLY stated this is the purpose of this code. To dissolve meritocracy and decide status based on identity, not talent. This is
why it is toxic, and should utterly be rejected, and anyone pushing it
to be booted out.

Again, people are OPENLY stating that these codes are about their ideas
of what should constitute a team (i.e., racial/sexual identity playing a factor). They are NOT about resolving issues, ensuring good behaviour,
respect or tolerance. In this sense, they are a complete fraud. The
Code of Conduct should be to protect everyone, not rank people.

That is the risk the 8 Bit Guy is taking with this. He's a nice guy,
and I would just hate to see his run into trouble because some activist
is sitting in waiting, believing he doesn't have enought gay, black
people on the project then uses the CoC to attack a dev because of a
tweet and raise a shitstorm.

Maybe nothing will happen, but the risk is there, and in adopting it and promoting it, you are helping perpetuate this, well, its evil. Frankly,
these activists are utterly racist and sexist.

As much as I want to support the 8 Bit Guy, for all the great work he is
doing, and this fantastic project, this really gets to me. I am
dissapointed though that he didn't google it, or if he did, didn't think
much about it. I think he needs to be warned and politely informed that perhaps he could adopt a code which BETTER serves his devs.
Unfortunately, he risks accusations and attacks should he decide to
change now.






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Re: Commander X16 conduct
By: hollowone to Dennisk on Fri Oct 09 2020 08:46 pm

Is that part about that pledges about people's equality regardless of race, gender, sexual
orientation and bla bla bla that is particularly too politican in your opinion or something else
I've missed there?

Modern Codes of Conduct are just a way to declare you endorse a certain way of doing politics
without having to declare explicitly that you endorse it.

It is also a way to identify who does not endorse those ways of doing politics, since everybody who
does not have one, must belong "to the other team".

It is reaching a point in which projects with one comitter have Codes of Conduct.

There is a chinesse tale explaining how non-explicit ways of endorsing political groups work but I
am tired of posting it once and again and again already.

Modern adaptation would be the Emperor sending a ninja against a guy he caught massaging her wife's
feet, because feet massages are a way of declaring you want to make love to her without declaring
so.

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Re: Re: Commander X16 conduct
By: Dennisk to hollowone on Sun Oct 04 2020 07:00 am

As much as I want to support the 8 Bit Guy, for all the great work he is doing, and this fantastic project, this really gets to me. I am dissapointed though that he didn't google it, or if he did, didn't think much about it. I think he needs to be warned and politely informed that perhaps he could adopt
code which BETTER serves his devs.
Unfortunately, he risks accusations and attacks should he decide to
change now.

To be honest, I have seen some cases in which developers bow (or claim to bow) because they fear
the repercussions if they don't.

On the other hand, it is common to see repercussions if they *do*, specially when there are lots of
non-Western's in the project who don't want to deal with this sort of thing.

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Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-

Re: Re: Commander X16 conduct
By: Dennisk to hollowone on Sun Oct 04 2020 07:00 am

As much as I want to support the 8 Bit Guy, for all the great work he is doing, and this fantastic project, this really gets to me. I am dissapointed though that he didn't google it, or if he did, didn't think much about it. I think he needs to be warned and politely informed that

perh

aps he could adopt

code which BETTER serves his devs.
Unfortunately, he risks accusations and attacks should he decide to
change now.

To be honest, I have seen some cases in which developers bow (or claim
to bow) because they fear the repercussions if they don't.

On the other hand, it is common to see repercussions if they *do*, specially when there are lots of non-Western's in the project who don't want to deal with this sort of thing.

Thats why its best to just not get involved with it at all. Just plain reject it, or don't respond.

You're right, a lot of people not in the Western world don't want to deal with this shit. Many people IN the West don't want to. Imagine going to work on a project based Saudi Arabia, and you had to agree to a document written specifically by Wahabbists to push their ideological agenda, and in agreeing you gave them power to enforce a code on you based on their religion.

Thats how I see it.

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Modern Codes of Conduct are just a way to declare you endorse a certain way of doing politics without having to declare explicitly that you endorse it.

I've got that, I just wanted to ensured if this is what we refer to (the doc). I know personally one of the contributors, who is quite frankly a very traditional Texan.

Pleagding to all the political bullshit is not how I met the guy :>
Aside of the fact, being friendly and fair person.

/h1
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Is that part about that pledges about people's equality regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and bla bla bla that is particularly
too politican in your opinion or something else I've missed there?

/h1

To quote the creator of the Contributer Covenant, Coraline Ada Ehmke;
"Some people are saying that the Contributor Covenant is a political
document, and they're right".

And that is nothing compared to other things she's said. You can see tweets directly from her where she gloats over the trouble it causes, overtly states its about dismantling meritocracy, her hatred and bitterness towards certain identities. There is no room for debate as
to whether this document has a hidden agenda. The only question that remains is, do you want to allow yourself to be a victim of it?

<cut>

As much as I want to support the 8 Bit Guy, for all the great work he
is doing, and this fantastic project, this really gets to me. I am dissapointed though that he didn't google it, or if he did, didn't
think much about it. I think he needs to be warned and politely
informed that perhaps he could adopt a code which BETTER serves his
devs. Unfortunately, he risks accusations and attacks should he decide
to change now.

This is very long but interesting post, thank you for all that elaborate.
I must think about it. Definitively sometimes not declaring yourself loud
is better than speaking out withour realizing what's the outcome.
Even if you try to explain right of equality in this or that way.

We just started discussing it in the context of NFL in the SPORTS group
as well and Kaepernick's case.

This is a world where regardless of what you say, you get a sticker it seems.


/h1


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--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
þ Synchronet þ Amiga City - The BBS for the Amiga - more than 4,000+ files

hollowone wrote to Dennisk <=-

Is that part about that pledges about people's equality regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation and bla bla bla that is particularly
too politican in your opinion or something else I've missed there?

/h1

To quote the creator of the Contributer Covenant, Coraline Ada Ehmke;
"Some people are saying that the Contributor Covenant is a political
document, and they're right".

And that is nothing compared to other things she's said. You can see tweets directly from her where she gloats over the trouble it causes, overtly states its about dismantling meritocracy, her hatred and bitterness towards certain identities. There is no room for debate as
to whether this document has a hidden agenda. The only question that remains is, do you want to allow yourself to be a victim of it?

<cut>

As much as I want to support the 8 Bit Guy, for all the great work he
is doing, and this fantastic project, this really gets to me. I am dissapointed though that he didn't google it, or if he did, didn't
think much about it. I think he needs to be warned and politely
informed that perhaps he could adopt a code which BETTER serves his
devs. Unfortunately, he risks accusations and attacks should he decide
to change now.

This is very long but interesting post, thank you for all that
elaborate. I must think about it. Definitively sometimes not declaring yourself loud is better than speaking out withour realizing what's the outcome. Even if you try to explain right of equality in this or that
way.

We just started discussing it in the context of NFL in the SPORTS group
as well and Kaepernick's case.

This is a world where regardless of what you say, you get a sticker it seems.

Thanks for listening to my argument. As I said, these aren't my opinions, those pushing the code themselves are stating that this is a trojan horse. Make of it what you will, but I believe that I would be doing people a disservice by not warning them, especially if they are people that I think do not deserve to be dragged into the culture war frontline. However, its hard to make that case to someone without also appearing to a belligerent.

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