Hello Everybody,

Ukraine has not yet perished ...

Ukraine is not yet dead, nor its glory and freedom,
Luck will still smile on us brother-Ukrainians.
Our enemies will die, as the dew does in the sunshine,
and we, too, brothers, we'll live happily in our land.

We’ll not spare either our souls or bodies to get freedom
and we’ll prove that we brothers are of Kozak kin.

--
Our Nuts, Your Mouth

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello, Lee!

Hello Everybody,

Ukraine has not yet perished ...

I was mistaken. There will be war.
Putin backs separatists claim to the whole Donbas region of Ukraine including those areas controlled by Ukraine.


Ghil.
--- -� �� �� �����⢮� ���﫨��. �������, �� ��?
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

Hello Ghil,

Ukraine has not yet perished ...

I was mistaken. There will be war.
Putin backs separatists claim to the whole Donbas region of Ukraine including those areas controlled by Ukraine.

Many have been mistaken. It is sad. So very sad so many will die.
On all sides. Not just soldiers, but also civilians. All needlessly.
Sent to their deaths by a man who has clearly lost his marbles.

There is no justice in this world.

For those who want justice, all that can be done is pray.

May God have mercy on all our souls.

--Lee

--
Big Or Small We Lay Them All

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hi, Ghil Zvidgzul!
I read your message from 23.02.2022 00:07

LL>> Ukraine has not yet perished ...
GZ> I was mistaken. There will be war.
GZ> Putin backs separatists claim to the whole Donbas region of
GZ> Ukraine including those areas controlled by Ukraine.

For a while we see only limited air strikes. And it is not necessary to
repeat an official Ukraine lie that Ukraine forces are fluffy, and they
has not been shelling Dombass region controlled be Lugansk and Donetsk breakaway republics.

How knows -- may be peace in that region became closer?

Bye, Ghil!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

How knows -- may be peace in that region became closer?

I don't think that Ukraine has to worry. Putin is just testing the west. After he successfully put a clown on the POTUS chair in 2016 he enjoyed watching the US distancing itself from all it's allies, with a gullible POTUS that over and over again showed his admiration of, and loyalty to him.

Then, when he failed to repeat the manipulation of the US election system in 2020, he probably was surprised to see how all the GOP people still followed the clown, and did everything they could to sabotage every attempt from the new government to repair the damages done, and thought that now is the right time to make a move.

Putin embraces the views of Aleksandr Dugin. If you don't want to read any of his books, there's actually a very good article about him on Wikipedia that explains a lot:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin


"In principle, Eurasia and our space, the heartland Russia, remain the staging area of a new anti-bourgeois, anti-American revolution. The new Eurasian empire will be constructed on the fundamental principle of the common enemy: the rejection of Atlanticism, strategic control of the USA, and the refusal to allow liberal values to dominate us. This common civilizational impulse will be the basis of a political and strategic union."

-- The Basics of Geopolitics (1997)


To sum it up, as long as NATO and EU stand strong (and China don't interfere), Putin is not going anywhere. He'll still rule a second rate country, far beyond USA, EU and China.


..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Bjorn,

How knows -- may be peace in that region became closer?

I don't think that Ukraine has to worry. Putin is just testing the
west. After he successfully put a clown on the POTUS chair in 2016 he enjoyed watching the US distancing itself from all it's allies, with a gullible POTUS that over and over again showed his admiration of, and loyalty to him.

I think that is totally ... correct ... once he can oust the current Ukrainian president and get a puppet on the throne, it will be business as usual.

What pains me is that a single person has power to do such a thing, move an army with tens of thousands of troops, maybe more. Russia does not have the economy to support any long term military engagement the way the USA has.

But more so, I am saddened that a country still does this, at the outskirts of Europe, where since the onset of the EU in the late 1940-ies it has been demonstrated that countries can peacefully co-exist and prosper ... even arch-enemies such as France and Germany which are now the greatest of friends.

I have listened to my dad who in 1940 was among the last 600 to defend Dunkirk against evil. The description of battle scenes, the brutality of fighting, the bloodshed ... the tears in his eyes ... 70 years after he experienced it.

I just cannot understand why people would want to cause harm to someone else over the silly claims and propagande which are taking us back to the darkest days of hard-core communism when I was a teenager.

Never put that much power into the hands of a single person ... history is obvious about that ... yet another proof.

I'm also disturbed by the lack of action/support by the west, an historical lack of support .... In 1953 Russian troops caused bloodshed in East Germany in its attempt to "liberate" East-Germans from the West and the West just stood by, watched, condemned and had a beer.

In 1956 Russian troops caused bloodshed in Hungary in its attempt to "liberate" Hungarians from the West and the West just stood by, watched, condemned and had a beer.

In 1968 Russian troops marched into CzechoSlovakia in its attempt to "liberate" Czechs and Slovaks from the West and the West just stood by, watched, condemned and had a beer.

In 1981 in Poland there was Jaruzelski, no Russian troops but Russian support was overwhelming and again the West just stood by, watched, condemned and had a beer. Lucky for the Poles, there was a Polish catholic Pope and that made a huge difference ... plus Lech Walesa.

Again now the west is watching, is condmning and later today will have a beer ... the cry for help has gone unanswered the past weeks because "it would de-stabilize the situation".

I'm saddened ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello, Ward!

I think that is totally ... correct ... once he can oust the current Ukrainian president and get a puppet on the throne, it will be
business as usual.

It's not so simple, ukrainians will live under occupation until Putin will die.

Ghil.
--- -� �� �� �����⢮� ���﫨��. �������, �� ��?
* Origin: ��ࠢ쨭� ᯨ�⮬ ᮢ���� ������ (2:5030/1081.117)

Ghil,

I think that is totally ... correct ... once he can oust the current GZ>WD> Ukrainian president and get a puppet on the throne, it will be
business as usual.

It's not so simple, ukrainians will live under occupation until Putin
will die.

You probably are right, but I'm just so saddened by the fact that this is 2022 and it can still happen ...

With "business as usual" I meant that when military movements will conclude, everybody who is shocked now will stand in line again to trade with Putin.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello Alexander,

Ukraine has not yet perished ...

I was mistaken. There will be war.
Putin backs separatists claim to the whole Donbas region of
Ukraine including those areas controlled by Ukraine.

For a while we see only limited air strikes. And it is not necessary to repeat an official Ukraine lie ...

"Modern Ukraine was completely created by Russia." ~Vladimir Putin

Politicians of all stripes often utter statements of nonsense.
And there are those who honestly believe such nonsense as fact.

Ukraine wants peace.
Europe wants peace.
The world says it doesn't want to fight,
and Russia says it doesn't want to attack.
Someone is lying.

How knows -- may be peace in that region became closer?

This is Putin's war. He owns it. Lock, stock, and barrel.
He has ordered a full-scaled invasion of Ukraine. An unprovoked
attack on an entire people. His actions have already been
condemned by many world leaders, and there will be more who
condemn his actions. The entire world will judge him, and
he has only himself to blame.

--Lee

--
Black lives matter!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Alexander,

[..]

How knows -- may be peace in that region became closer?

I am hopeful a path to peace can be found. War is never the solution
for solving problems. Leaders of both Russia and Ukraine can to better.

--Lee

--
I think they bought a Jeep

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Björn,

How knows -- may be peace in that region became closer?

I don't think that Ukraine has to worry.

Ukraine, and the world, has plenty to worry.

Putin is just testing the west.

Unlike Trump, Putin is not a stable genius.

After he successfully put a clown on the POTUS chair in 2016 he enjoyed watching the US distancing itself from all it's allies, with a gullible POTUS that over and over again showed his admiration of, and loyalty to him.

Winning the lottery twice in a row would have made him God Almighty.
And everybody would be praising his name. Not just Trump and his merry
band of MAGA followers.

Then, when he failed to repeat the manipulation of the US election system in
2020, he probably was surprised to see how all the GOP people still followed the clown, and did everything they could to sabotage every attempt
from the new government to repair the damages done, and thought that now is
the right time to make a move.

HAL-9000 cheated at chess in the movie "2001: A Space Odyssey".
Stanley Kubrick was a chessmaster and knew what he was doing in
the script. Vladimir Putin is no chessmaster, and even sucks at
playing the game. But he is a cheater ...

Putin embraces the views of Aleksandr Dugin. If you don't want to read any of his books, there's actually a very good article about him on Wikipedia that explains a lot:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin

That may explain at least part of his own political philosophy,
but does not change the reality. Putin's move is economic. Russia
is so dependent on oil and gas revenue that if it loses its oil
and gas business from either Belarus or Ukraine it is sunk as an
economically viable country. Just do the math.

"In principle, Eurasia and our space, the heartland Russia, remain the staging area of a new anti-bourgeois, anti-American revolution. The new Eurasian empire will be constructed on the fundamental principle of the common enemy: the rejection of Atlanticism, strategic control of the USA, and the refusal to allow liberal values to dominate us. This common civilizational impulse will be the basis of a political and strategic union."

Karl Marx was also a philosopher. Not much of an economist, but
a good philosopher. Does that mean that political leaders should
base their decisions on a man who died penniless and never held
office a day in his life?

What explains Putin's thinking cannot be pinned down to the
writings of one political commentator/author. It is his mental
state that explains more. Much more.

-- The Basics of Geopolitics (1997)

To sum it up, as long as NATO and EU stand strong (and China don't interfere), Putin is not going anywhere. He'll still rule a second rate country, far beyond USA, EU and China.

A giant gas station. But what happens when nobody wants to buy any
more oil and gas from him? The population of Russia has declined by
ten million people in the past decade. Mostly young women, of child
bearing age. Gonna be a long winter in Moscow (and elsewhere).

--Lee

--
Always in beta

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hi, Lee Lofaso!
I read your message from 24.02.2022 14:37

ak>> How knows -- may be peace in that region became closer?
LL> This is Putin's war. He owns it. Lock, stock, and barrel.
LL> He has ordered a full-scaled invasion of Ukraine. An unprovoked
LL> attack on an entire people. His actions have already been
LL> condemned by many world leaders, and there will be more who
LL> condemn his actions. The entire world will judge him, and
LL> he has only himself to blame.

The things the US does in Syria are not different. The US just feel that
it can do it and it does it. It wants to defend some people in Syria and
this reason is enough for being in Syria and is a good example for Russia.

I repeat, that if in Mexico some anti American forces came to power and
they ask Russia to accept them into the military block with Russia and
Belarus the reaction of the US will be similar and even 100 time quicker
and stronger.

In any case the situation doesn't demand the third world war with nukes.
The West can sting Putin in many non military ways.

Bye, Lee!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hello Ghil,

I think that is totally ... correct ... once he can oust the current
Ukrainian president and get a puppet on the throne, it will be
business as usual.

It's not so simple, ukrainians will live under occupation until Putin will die.

His own people will deal with him in their own way.
Once those body bags return with dead Russian soldiers.

--Lee

--
Education not deportation!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Lee,

It's not so simple, ukrainians will live under occupation until
Putin will die.

His own people will deal with him in their own way.
Once those body bags return with dead Russian soldiers.

A good dictator doesn't give a shite about bodybags.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Alexander,

The things the US does in Syria are not different. The US just feel that
it can do it and it does it. It wants to defend some people in Syria and this reason is enough for being in Syria and is a good example for
Russia.

I understand what you're saying and several here have been vocal when countries like Iraq and Afghanistan were invaded, including myself.

But don't you think the comparison is a bit warped?

I repeat, that if in Mexico some anti American forces came to power and they ask Russia to accept them into the military block with Russia and Belarus the reaction of the US will be similar and even 100 time quicker and stronger.

Here again the comparison is far fetched, but we have the Cuban example.

In any case the situation doesn't demand the third world war with nukes. The West can sting Putin in many non military ways.

Yes, someone could launch a formal policy complaint against him...what's his nodenumber?

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

//Hello Ward,//

on *24.02.22* at *15:48:05* You wrote in Area *FIDONEWS*
to *Lee Lofaso* about *"Re: Ukraine National Anthem"*.

A good dictator doesn't give a shite about bodybags.

Actually, as the quite entertaining guide "How to Become a Tyrant" on Netflix correctly points out, these are required and helpful to keep power.

Regards,
Tim

--- WinPoint 400.3
* Origin: Original WinPoint Origin! (2:240/1120.29)

Hi, Ward Dossche!
I read your message from 24.02.2022 18:54

ak>> The things the US does in Syria are not different. The US just
ak>> feel that it can do it and it does it. It wants to defend some
ak>> people in Syria and this reason is enough for being in Syria and
ak>> is a good example for Russia.

WD> I understand what you're saying and several here have been vocal
WD> when countries like Iraq and Afghanistan were invaded, including
WD> myself.

Every successful unlawful military operation has a long negative
consequences for the world. The simplest argument -- if they can do it
why I can't do it, with mt bunch of nukes under belt? Or take the recent military operation of Azerbaijan against the Karabakh, a breakaway
republic with Armenian population. This republic was recaptured, but the operation has sent a strong signal to the Ukrainian military that the situation in Dombass can be also solved by force. It is easy to note
that the aggravation of the situation in Dombass has begun right after Azerbijan's operation.

WD> But don't you think the comparison is a bit warped?

It is not the same, of course, but the pretext is similar -- the Syrian authority conducts military operations against the rebels and the USA
likes the rebels and want to defend them from military strikes. Note,
that in this case there is absolutely no any danger to the USA from the
Syrian regime.

ak>> I repeat, that if in Mexico some anti American forces came to
ak>> power and they ask Russia to accept them into the military block
ak>> with Russia and Belarus the reaction of the US will be similar and
ak>> even 100 time quicker and stronger.

WD> Here again the comparison is far fetched, but we have the Cuban
WD> example.

And we saw the crazy American reaction and the world was on the brink of
the nuclear war. But, thinking in the NATO way, we could say that Cuba
had a right to be part of any block. But it has never had it. Similar?

ak>> In any case the situation doesn't demand the third world war with
ak>> nukes. The West can sting Putin in many non military ways.

WD> Yes, someone could launch a formal policy complaint against him...
WD> what's his nodenumber?

Well it is life, that not always a strong hooligan can be restrained.
The world lives like it for thousands of years. And besides, it is sure
that Russian tries to avoid the most bloody scenario. When NATO bombed Yugoslavia they didn't shame to make massive bomb strikes against most populated cities.

However it is a crazy situation. First of all nobody knows what does
Putin want and what he is going to do with big cities etc.

Bye, Ward!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
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* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hello Ward,

It's not so simple, ukrainians will live under occupation until
Putin will die.

His own people will deal with him in their own way.
Once those body bags return with dead Russian soldiers.

A good dictator doesn't give a shite about bodybags.

His people do. And without stability in his country, he is toast.

--Lee

--
Not my president!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello, alexander!

Friday February 25 2022 09:01, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

strikes. Note, that in this case there is absolutely no any danger to
the USA from the Syrian regime.

You are wrong - Syria did a lot of bad things to USA, in Lebanon and Iraq.
And from US point of view syrian rebels are at least not supplying Hizbollah with weapons.

It's a shame that only few people in Russia actually know anything about Syria and it's politics.

And we saw the crazy American reaction and the world was on the brink
of the nuclear war. But, thinking in the NATO way, we could say that
Cuba had a right to be part of any block. But it has never had it. Similar?

Cuba was a part of Soviet block since 1961. The problem was with nuclear weapons.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Ward,

How knows -- may be peace in that region became closer?

I don't think that Ukraine has to worry. Putin is just testing the
west. After he successfully put a clown on the POTUS chair in 2016 he
enjoyed watching the US distancing itself from all it's allies, with a
gullible POTUS that over and over again showed his admiration of, and
loyalty to him.

I think that is totally ... correct ...

I am sure Vladimir Putin thought he could get away with not only
taking another chunk out of Ukraine but also taking the whole thing -
at little or no cost to his own selfish interests.

And now he is learning that Joe Biden is no Donald Trump. And that
NATO is no pushover. And also the fact that the president of Ukraine
is standing up to him, without blinking, as well as a Ukrainian
military putting the hurt on an invading army that is fighting an
old man's war.

once he can oust the current Ukrainian president and get a puppet on the throne, it will be business as usual.

This is not WWII. And there will be no Vichy government in Ukraine.
Much to Putin's chagrin.

What pains me is that a single person has power to do such a thing, move an
army with tens of thousands of troops, maybe more.

It pains young people in Russia even more, as tens of thousands
were arrested in Moscow following initial reports of Russia invading
Ukraine. Most people in Russia are shocked at what is happening, and
find it difficult that their president would do such a thing, as
it was an unprovoked and unjustified attack on one of its neighbors.

Russia does not have the economy to support any long term military engagement the way the USA has.

The Russian economy has taken a beating since sanctions were
imposed after its invasion and illegal annexation of the southern
part of Ukraine known as Crimea. More sanctions have now been
imposed as a result of its continued invasion of Ukraine ...

But more so, I am saddened that a country still does this,

This is an old man's war. The vast majority of Russians do not
support war. Not this war, not any war. The Russian people have
suffered much as a result of war. Far more than than others.
Yes, the Russian people do remember Napoleon Bonaparte. Yes,
the Russian people do remember Adolf Hitler. And yes, the Russian
people will definitely remember Vladimir Putin.

at the outskirts of Europe, where since the onset of the EU in the late 1940-ies it has been demonstrated that countries can peacefully co-exist and prosper ... even arch-enemies such as France and Germany which are now the greatest of friends.

Mikhail Gorbachev understood this. And I am sure Vladimir Putin
also understands this. Difference is, Gorbachev wanted peace.
Putin does not.

This is the fifth war Putin has started. For no other reason
than it being his wish. He has no love even for his own people.

I have listened to my dad who in 1940 was among the last 600 to defend Dunkirk against evil. The description of battle scenes, the brutality of fighting, the bloodshed ... the tears in his eyes ... 70 years after he experienced it.

Putin was once employed as a low-level clerk in the KGB. He lost
his job due to Gorbachev's dissolution of the USSR. And now he wants
to become Gorbachev's replacement - which he feels was stolen from
him by Boris Yeltsen.

I just cannot understand why people would want to cause harm to someone else
over the silly claims and propagande which are taking us back to the darkest days of hard-core communism when I was a teenager.

Putin is not well. He is a mental case. And there is no cure.

Never put that much power into the hands of a single person ... history is obvious about that ... yet another proof.

The best form of government is a benevolent dictator. However, Putin
is more like Angelina Jolie ...

I'm also disturbed by the lack of action/support by the west,

Putin's threat, and current invasion, to invade Ukraine has not
weakened the resolve of the USA or the Western alliance. NATO remains
strong and united. Sanctions have been imposed, with more coming.
Rather than falling apart, NATO is considering adding new members -
such as Finland and Sweden. The US is sending more troops to NATO
countries, and will continue to do so. Any Russian attack on any
of its members will result in an Article V. And you know what
that means ...

an historical lack of support ....

This is not WWII. And Joe Biden is no Neville Chamberlain.
Nor is he a Donald Trump, who lavishly praised Putin in Helsinki
as "a tough cookie".

In 1953 Russian troops caused bloodshed in East Germany in its attempt to "liberate" East-Germans from the West and the West just stood by, watched, condemned and had a beer.

How did the USSR's blockade of Berlin go? Well, we all know how
that turned out. So do the people who lived there at the time.

Germany never recognized the eastern part of Germany as being a
separate independent state. Ukraine never recognized the two areas
Putin claims are separate independent states.

So what is your point? The US recognizes Germany as one united
state. Not two separate entities. The US recognizes Ukraine as one
united stated. Not two (or three or four) separate states.

In 1956 Russian troops caused bloodshed in Hungary in its attempt to "liberate" Hungarians from the West and the West just stood by, watched, condemned and had a beer.

Which explains why Hungary (and many other European countries)
have joined NATO (now at thirty, and growing).

In 1968 Russian troops marched into CzechoSlovakia in its attempt to "liberate" Czechs and Slovaks from the West and the West just stood by, watched, condemned and had a beer.

Both the Czech Republic and Slovakia have since joined NATO.

In 1981 in Poland there was Jaruzelski, no Russian troops but Russian support was overwhelming and again the West just stood by, watched, condemned and had a beer. Lucky for the Poles, there was a Polish catholic Pope and that made a huge difference ... plus Lech Walesa.

Poland is also a member of NATO. And likely a target in Putin's
crosshairs. What do you think will happen when, and if, Putin crosses
that line?

All of NATO's major players are on the same page.

Again now the west is watching, is condmning and later today will have a beer

The only one who is drinking is Vladimir Putin. And I do not believe
he is drinking beer. More like horse piss, given the reaction of most
Russians (those who have learned of his invasion of Ukraine).

... the cry for help has gone unanswered the past weeks because "it would de-stabilize the situation".

Time to rock Putin's world.

I'm saddened ...

I am deeply saddened. Saddened that some people in this country
are aiding and abetting and giving comfort to the enemy. Russian
apologists on our airwaves. Mostly on FoxNews. Tucker Carlson,
eat your heart out.

--Lee

--
The people! Unite! Will never be defeated!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hi, Dmitry Protasoff!
I read your message from 25.02.2022 15:52

ak>> strikes. Note, that in this case there is absolutely no any
ak>> danger to the USA from the Syrian regime.
DP> You are wrong - Syria did a lot of bad things to USA, in
DP> Lebanon and Iraq. And from US point of view syrian rebels are
DP> at least not supplying Hizbollah with weapons. It's a shame
DP> that only few people in Russia actually know anything about
DP> Syria and it's politics.

Do you think that the USA is a part of Israel? ;-)

ak>> And we saw the crazy American reaction and the world was on
ak>> the brink of the nuclear war. But, thinking in the NATO
ak>> way, we could say that Cuba had a right to be part of any
ak>> block. But it has never had it. Similar?
DP> Cuba was a part of Soviet block since 1961. The problem was
DP> with nuclear weapons.

It's exactly Putin's rhetoric about deploying NATO rockets and bases in Ukraine. NATO has refused to discuss the issue, or I something missed?

Bye, Dmitry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Alexander,

It's exactly Putin's rhetoric about deploying NATO rockets and bases in Ukraine. NATO has refused to discuss the issue, or I something missed?

Neither you nor I have been privy to the debate during such meetings. Therefore I don't know and neither do you.

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, alexander!

Friday February 25 2022 20:24, you wrote to me:

You are wrong - Syria did a lot of bad things to USA, in
Lebanon and Iraq. And from US point of view syrian rebels are
at least not supplying Hizbollah with weapons. It's a shame
that only few people in Russia actually know anything about
Syria and it's politics.

Do you think that the USA is a part of Israel? ;-)

Hizbollah tortured and killed a lot of US citizens and Syria sent quite a lot of terrorists to Syria (and Lebanon, but it's another story).

And USA didn't bomb Syria to stop Assad, they came to stop ISIS. And they did it.
While Russia was saving Assad's ass from opposition.

Cuba was a part of Soviet block since 1961. The problem was
with nuclear weapons.

It's exactly Putin's rhetoric about deploying NATO rockets and bases
in Ukraine. NATO has refused to discuss the issue, or I something
missed?

NATO was never going to deploy any bases or nuclear weapons in Ukraine. It's only a Putin's crazy dream.
It's Russia who was keeping military base in Ukraine and used it to invade Crimea.

The Ukraine was trying to joing NATO because it knew that Russia will invade at some point.
And Russia just did it.

So joning NATO is the only way for any small country to stop Putin. And no one should trust any high level Russian officials - they are just spreading desinformation and lies.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

//Hello Lee,//

on *25.02.22* at *9:25:39* You wrote in Area *FIDONEWS*
to *Ward Dossche* about *"Ukraine National Anthem"*.

A good dictator doesn't give a shite about bodybags.

His people do. And without stability in his country, he is toast.

Think of 1984: It doesnt matter if the war in Eurasia even exists ...

Regards,
Tim

--- WinPoint 400.3
* Origin: Original WinPoint Origin! (2:240/1120.29)

Again now the west is watching, is condmning and later today will have a beer ... the cry for help has gone unanswered the past weeks because "it would de-stabilize the situation".

Well, I think there's a lot of action going on right now, but you are correct, the complacency is despicable.

The most powerful tool available is still not used. I'm talking about Swift, with a very tight Belgian connection, BTW. :)

Oh yes, I know that Swift cannot act on it's own, it needs the European Council (more Belgian connections...) to issue a directive about cutting Russia off from Swift services. It worked on Iran in March 2012, and it would most likely have an immediate impact on Putin and his oligarchy thieving friends.

But it will also (like with the Iranian affair) mean a huge reduction in fossil fuel consumption in Europe. Yikes, less air pollution? Nah.... We can't have that.

It also will mean that banks and financial institutions world wide will get reduced profits and even credit losses. That means less bribes to the lawmakers, that keep those profits high -- on the ordinary people's expense. We surely can't have that either.



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

The most powerful tool available is still not used. I'm talking about Swift, with a very tight Belgian connection, BTW. :)

You're sure it hasn't been cut yet, because it is necerssary to do it.

In any case something along that line was mentioned here on the TV-news... hoz do we check?

Oh yes, I know that Swift cannot act on it's own, it needs the
European Council (more Belgian connections...) to issue a directive about cutting Russia off from Swift services.

C'mon Ursula ...

But it will also (like with the Iranian affair) mean a huge reduction
in fossil fuel consumption in Europe. Yikes, less air pollution? Nah....
We can't have that.

I can put on an extra sweater ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello Bj�rn,

Again now the west is watching, is condmning and later today will

have a

beer ... the cry for help has gone unanswered the past weeks because

"it

would de-stabilize the situation".

Well, I think there's a lot of action going on right now, but you are correct, the complacency is despicable.

The US President, NATO, and leaders around the world are far from
complacent in regards to what is happening right now. Sanctions have
been imposed, the entire world has condemned Putin's actions, and
more and more troops are being called up and being positioned in
NATO countries. And that's just the beginning.

The most powerful tool available is still not used. I'm talking about Swift,
with a very tight Belgian connection, BTW. :)

It's a communications platform, not a financial payment system.

Oh yes, I know that Swift cannot act on it's own, it needs the European Council (more Belgian connections...) to issue a directive about cutting Russia off from Swift services.

Russia has workarounds in case swift is used as part of sanctions.
And using swift against Russia would also encourage others (such as
other countries and terrorists) to use China instead.

It worked on Iran in March 2012,

Using swift as part of sanctions on Iran due to its nuclear weapons
program (which Iran claims is for peaceful purposes).

and it would most likely have an immediate impact on Putin and his oligarchy
thieving friends.

Only a small impact, as Russia has other means.

But it will also (like with the Iranian affair) mean a huge reduction in fossil fuel consumption in Europe. Yikes, less air pollution? Nah.... We can't have that.

All sanctions have some impact on countries outside of Russia.

It also will mean that banks and financial institutions world wide will get
reduced profits and even credit losses. That means less bribes to the lawmakers, that keep those profits high -- on the ordinary people's expense. We surely can't have that either.

Keeping swift in reserve is what the US and Europe are doing now.
Sanctions take time, and are not felt immediately. The best Putin
& Co. can do for themselves (and for Russia) is to end his insane
and brutal war on Ukraine. The sooner the better.

--Lee

--
Erections, That's Our Game

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Bj�rn!

26 Feb 22 03:54, Bj�rn Felten wrote to Ward Dossche:

The most powerful tool available is still not used. I'm talking
about Swift, with a very tight Belgian connection, BTW. :)

CHIPS and SPFS stand ready to take over the market space SWIFT might be feeing up...


Regards,
Gerrit

... 9:58AM up 51 days, 20:53, 5 users, load averages: 0.47, 0.36, 0.34

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: And still they come and go (2:240/12)

Hello Bj�rn!

26 Feb 22 03:54, Bj�rn Felten wrote to Ward Dossche:

The most powerful tool available is still not used. I'm talking
about Swift, with a very tight Belgian connection, BTW. :)

CIPS and SPFS stand ready to take over the market space SWIFT might be freeing up...


Regards,
Gerrit

... 10:05AM up 51 days, 21 hrs, 5 users, load averages: 0.51, 0.45, 0.37

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: A love pays love for lying (2:240/12)

Hi, Dmitry Protasoff!
I read your message from 25.02.2022 22:11

DP>>> You are wrong - Syria did a lot of bad things to USA, in Lebanon
DP>>> and Iraq. And from US point of view syrian rebels are at least
DP>>> not supplying Hizbollah with weapons. It's a shame that only few
DP>>> people in Russia actually know anything about Syria and it's
DP>>> politics.

ak>> Do you think that the USA is a part of Israel?

DP> Hizbollah tortured and killed a lot of US citizens and Syria sent
DP> quite a lot of terrorists to Syria (and Lebanon, but it's another
DP> story).

To Syria? ;)
As for torture, let's not talk who tortures people more -- Hizbollah or
the US. The US a long ago approved the concept that if a torture helps
it should be used. We have seen it in Guantanamo, Cuba. The only
military base that has ever been there, BTW.

DP> And USA didn't bomb Syria to stop Assad, they came to stop ISIS.
DP> And they did it. While Russia was saving Assad's ass from
DP> opposition.

DP>>> Cuba was a part of Soviet block since 1961. The problem was with
DP>>> nuclear weapons.

ak>> It's exactly Putin's rhetoric about deploying NATO rockets and
ak>> bases in Ukraine. NATO has refused to discuss the issue, or I
ak>> something missed?

DP> NATO was never going to deploy any bases or nuclear weapons in
DP> Ukraine. It's only a Putin's crazy dream. It's Russia who was

Also NATO has never been going to expand to the East, BTW. When the USSR
gave up the East Germany it was told like that. And it is funny from
your side to talk on behalf of NATO. How do you know? Who tells the
truth on this planet? ;)

DP> keeping military base in Ukraine and used it to invade Crimea.

The events in the former USSR look like a long divorce scandal. But,
IMHO, it is foolish to not allow "the children" to choose the side where
to go. The people of Crimea and Donbass were always prorussain, and it
is not a secret.

DP> The Ukraine was trying to joing NATO because it knew that Russia
DP> will invade at some point. And Russia just did it.

DP> So joning NATO is the only way for any small country to stop Putin.
DP> And no one should trust any high level Russian officials - they are
DP> just spreading desinformation and lies.

Those Ukrainian nationalists who had made the cope in Kiev in 2014 are
idiots and fools. They decided to privatize the whole Ukraine for
themselves, they divided the Ukrainians, they has tried to humiliate the Russian part of population as a big hooligan humiliates a weak person.
But I repeat again, it was a gross mistake. First, remember, if you are
going to humiliate somebody you should choose a weak, defenceless
person. Russian people in Ukraine do not fit at this role at all.
Second, don't began fight with a strong person who can hit back. You can easily have a bloody nose. Fight only with week people, and it would be happiness and victory. ;=)

Bye, Dmitry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, alexander!

Saturday February 26 2022 17:06, you wrote to me:

Hizbollah tortured and killed a lot of US citizens and Syria
sent quite a lot of terrorists to Syria (and Lebanon, but it's
another story).

To Syria? ;)

To Iraq, typo. But then they've returned to Syria with ISIS, so I was also correct in some way.

As for torture, let's not talk who tortures people more -- Hizbollah

Hizbollah. It even killed soviet diplomat in 80s and captured 3 others, but USSR did nothing against them except for much talking :)
And take Syria - how many people were tortured there for decades in prisons like one in Tandmour.

or the US. The US a long ago approved the concept that if a torture
helps it should be used. We have seen it in Guantanamo, Cuba. The only

Those who used it in Guantanamo were punished and you can't compare Guantanamo even to ordinary russian police station, where torture is just a "new normality". In our prisons torture used like in Nazi camps, check famous Gulagu.net videos.
No one in Guantanamo was putting mop in prisoners asses till death. Such thing have something with russian culture's addiction to forced male to male anal sex.

military base that has ever been there, BTW.

We had military base there and lied that it was a "traning center #12".

NATO was never going to deploy any bases or nuclear weapons in
Ukraine. It's only a Putin's crazy dream. It's Russia who was

Also NATO has never been going to expand to the East, BTW. When the

Who told you that?

USSR gave up the East Germany it was told like that. And it is funny

No, it's a fake. No one found even a single agreement between NATO and SU about that.

from your side to talk on behalf of NATO. How do you know? Who tells
the truth on this planet? ;)

You now everyone can see that is the only real force to protect your country from Russia. Before 2014 NATO was lossing budget and people, quite fast.
Now it's going to be strong again. Putin wanted it like this?

keeping military base in Ukraine and used it to invade Crimea.

The events in the former USSR look like a long divorce scandal. But,
IMHO, it is foolish to not allow "the children" to choose the side
where to go. The people of Crimea and Donbass were always prorussain,
and it is not a secret.

Is it ok for you to use military force against your friends because you think that you know better how to divide your friend's countries?
Well, this leeds to new cold war. And you know that Russia can't win it.

We are already loosing: no access to Airbus, TSMC, etc.. What for??

Those Ukrainian nationalists who had made the cope in Kiev in 2014 are
idiots and fools. They decided to privatize the whole Ukraine for

"Idiots and fools"? Sounds like you are very smart? :)

themselves, they divided the Ukrainians, they has tried to humiliate
the Russian part of population as a big hooligan humiliates a weak

No one was going to "privatize" Ukraine. I have many friends there, russians, who don't agree with you completely.
Have you been in Kiev since 2014? I did, btw.

back. You can easily have a bloody nose. Fight only with week people,
and it would be happiness and victory. ;=)

And now we are discussion how we'll live without SWIFT.. Long queues in Moscow to get euro/dollars from ATMs (impossible at the moment), prices increasing daily, a lot of EU countries stopped issuing visas..

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

The most powerful tool available is still not used. I'm talking about
Swift, with a very tight Belgian connection, BTW. :)

You're sure it hasn't been cut yet, because it is necerssary to do it.

Difficult to be sure of anything those days, but as I understand it so far, Canada is a Yes, USA is a Yes if it's allies say yes. In the EU most seem to be a YES, except Germany, France and Italy (their banks have been to greedy and invested too much in Russia). Let's hope that the Biden administration can find a way to twist their arms...

In any case something along that line was mentioned here on the
TV-news... hoz do we check?

Indeed. :(



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hi, Dmitry Protasoff!
I read your message from 26.02.2022 17:13


DP>>> Hizbollah tortured and killed a lot of US citizens and Syria sent
DP>>> quite a lot of terrorists to Syria (and Lebanon, but it's another
DP>>> story).

ak>> To Syria?
DP> To Iraq, typo. But then they've returned to Syria with ISIS, so I
DP> was also correct in some way.

ak>> As for torture, let's not talk who tortures people more --
ak>> Hizbollah

DP> Hizbollah. It even killed soviet diplomat in 80s and captured 3
DP> others, but USSR did nothing against them except for much talking
DP> And take Syria - how many people were tortured there for decades in
DP> prisons like one in Tandmour.

It's easy - when all peaceful ways to solve the problem end, terrorists
and rebels always will appear. It's life.


ak>> or the US. The US a long ago approved the concept that if a
ak>> torture helps it should be used. We have seen it in Guantanamo,
ak>> Cuba. The only

DP> Those who used it in Guantanamo were punished and you can't compare
DP> Guantanamo even to ordinary russian police station, where torture
DP> is just a "new normality". In our prisons torture used like in Nazi
DP> camps, check famous Gulagu.net videos. No one in Guantanamo was
DP> putting mop in prisoners asses till death. Such thing have
DP> something with russian culture's addiction to forced male to male
DP> anal sex.

You are too young and you don't know the scandals when Americans
soldiers humiliated Iraqi prisoners in the most dishonest ways. They
treated them like animals. However, I believe is a common feature of the people who work in prisons. Not all course.

ak>> military base that has ever been there, BTW.

DP> We had military base there and lied that it was a "traning center
DP> #12".

DP>>> NATO was never going to deploy any bases or nuclear weapons in
DP>>> Ukraine. It's only a Putin's crazy dream. It's Russia who was

ak>> Also NATO has never been going to expand to the East, BTW. When
ak>> the

DP> Who told you that?

ak>> USSR gave up the East Germany it was told like that. And it is
ak>> funny

DP> No, it's a fake. No one found even a single agreement between NATO
DP> and SU about that.

You deceive yourself because you want it: https://en.news-front.info/2022/02/19/der-spiegel-official-document-confirms-that-nato-promised-not-to-expand-eastwards/

https://tinyurl.com/yatjn4yw

<skipped>

ak>> The events in the former USSR look like a long divorce scandal.
ak>> But, IMHO, it is foolish to not allow "the children" to choose the
ak>> side where to go. The people of Crimea and Donbass were always
ak>> prorussain, and it is not a secret.

DP> Is it ok for you to use military force against your friends because
DP> you think that you know better how to divide your friend's
DP> countries? Well, this leeds to new cold war. And you know that
DP> Russia can't win it.

DP> We are already loosing: no access to Airbus, TSMC, etc.. What for??

Well, when Zorg in the "Fifth element" smashed the glass his tirade
sounded cool. ;-) I say it as person who can do nothing. I have to find something positive for myself. ;-)

ak>> Those Ukrainian nationalists who had made the cope in Kiev in 2014
ak>> are idiots and fools. They decided to privatize the whole Ukraine
ak>> for

DP> "Idiots and fools"? Sounds like you are very smart?

These fucking idiots created most groundless foolish havoc that the
world has not seen for ages.

ak>> themselves, they divided the Ukrainians, they has tried to
ak>> humiliate the Russian part of population as a big hooligan
ak>> humiliates a weak

DP> No one was going to "privatize" Ukraine. I have many friends there,
DP> russians, who don't agree with you completely. Have you been in
DP> Kiev since 2014? I did, btw.

Nothing would happen if it were as you say.

ak>> back. You can easily have a bloody nose. Fight only with week
ak>> people, and it would be happiness and victory. ;=)

DP> And now we are discussion how we'll live without SWIFT.. Long
DP> queues in Moscow to get euro/dollars from ATMs (impossible at the
DP> moment), prices increasing daily, a lot of EU countries stopped
DP> issuing visas..

There are different opinions about what can be called an interesting
life. ;-)

Bye, Dmitry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, alexander!

Sunday February 27 2022 11:30, you wrote to me:

Hizbollah. It even killed soviet diplomat in 80s and captured 3
others, but USSR did nothing against them except for much
talking And take Syria - how many people were tortured there for
decades in prisons like one in Tandmour.

It's easy - when all peaceful ways to solve the problem end,
terrorists and rebels always will appear. It's life.

Hizbollah appeared when peaceful solution came to Lebanon. The whole idea was kill peacekeepers, to continue the war.
And Syria war like this from 60s, when they've started to physically eliminate opposition.

You are too young and you don't know the scandals when Americans
soldiers humiliated Iraqi prisoners in the most dishonest ways. They treated them like animals. However, I believe is a common feature of
the people who work in prisons. Not all course.

I am way too old to remember that were also punished.
And no one from FSB was punished for torturing russian political prisoners.

And even yesterday police was torturing political protesters in Moscow, sounds like you don't care about that?

You deceive yourself because you want it: https://en.news-front.info/2022/02/19/der-spiegel-official-document-co nfirms-that-nato-promised-not-to-expand-eastwards/

https://meduza.io/feature/2022/02/25/odin-iz-argumentov-dlya-vtorzheniya-v-ukrainu-yakoby-dannoe-zapadom-obeschanie-ne-rasshiryat-nato-na-vostok-i-dazhe-nash lis-novye-dokumenty-kotorye-eto-podtverzhdayut

It's a very old story, no documents exists about any "promises".
Just talks.

And as I said before - NATO is a good idea for any country, otherwise Russia will find some excuse to invade.

We are already loosing: no access to Airbus, TSMC, etc.. What
for??

Well, when Zorg in the "Fifth element" smashed the glass his tirade sounded cool. ;-) I say it as person who can do nothing. I have to
find something positive for myself. ;-)

We all can do something, because we are free humans, not slaves.
But even slaves were trying.

"Idiots and fools"? Sounds like you are very smart?

These fucking idiots created most groundless foolish havoc that the
world has not seen for ages.

It's nonsense. Putin started the war and you are blaming someone else.

No one was going to "privatize" Ukraine. I have many friends
there, russians, who don't agree with you completely. Have you
been in Kiev since 2014? I did, btw.

Nothing would happen if it were as you say.

The only thing that matter is a crazy former KGB agent in Kremlin.

And now we are discussion how we'll live without SWIFT.. Long
queues in Moscow to get euro/dollars from ATMs (impossible at
the moment), prices increasing daily, a lot of EU countries
stopped issuing visas..

There are different opinions about what can be called an interesting
life. ;-)

Beeing poor in Russia is not fun ;)

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Ward,

It's exactly Putin's rhetoric about deploying NATO rockets and bases in
Ukraine. NATO has refused to discuss the issue, or I something missed?

Neither you nor I have been privy to the debate during such meetings. Therefore I don't know and neither do you.

Donald Trump knows.
He knows everything.
And is never wrong.

Q: What do you call a paranoid megalomaniac bent on starting WWIII?

Trump: Genius!

--Lee

--
No justice! No peace!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Tim,

A good dictator doesn't give a shite about bodybags.

His people do. And without stability in his country, he is toast.

Think of 1984: It doesnt matter if the war in Eurasia even exists ...

Not in the world of Newspeak* ...

WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.

* Newspeak was the official language of Oceania and had been devised
to meet the ideological needs of Ingsoc, or English Socialism.

--Lee

--
Silence is violence!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Gerrit,

The most powerful tool available is still not used. I'm talking
about Swift, with a very tight Belgian connection, BTW. :)

CIPS and SPFS stand ready to take over the market space SWIFT might be freeing up...

Looks like a few more clients are headed their way ...

--Lee

--
I won't fan the flames of hate, ~Joe Biden

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Alexander,

Hizbollah tortured and killed a lot of US citizens and Syria sent
quite a lot of terrorists to Syria (and Lebanon, but it's another
story).

To Syria?

To Iraq, typo. But then they've returned to Syria with ISIS, so I
was also correct in some way.

As for torture, let's not talk who tortures people more --
Hizbollah

Hizbollah. It even killed soviet diplomat in 80s and captured 3
others, but USSR did nothing against them except for much talking
And take Syria - how many people were tortured there for decades in
prisons like one in Tandmour.

It's easy - when all peaceful ways to solve the problem end, terrorists and rebels always will appear. It's life.

How does that make Putin any different, given his actions on Ukraine?

or the US. The US a long ago approved the concept that if a
torture helps it should be used. We have seen it in Guantanamo,
Cuba. The only

Those who used it in Guantanamo were punished and you can't compare
Guantanamo even to ordinary russian police station, where torture
is just a "new normality". In our prisons torture used like in Nazi
camps, check famous Gulagu.net videos. No one in Guantanamo was
putting mop in prisoners asses till death. Such thing have
something with russian culture's addiction to forced male to male
anal sex.

You are too young and you don't know the scandals when Americans
soldiers humiliated Iraqi prisoners in the most dishonest ways. They treated them like animals. However, I believe is a common feature of the people who work in prisons. Not all course.

The soldiers who did that to Iraqi prisoners were courts martialed.
Russians protesting Putin's actions are being put in jail. There is
no telling what their jailers are doing to them.

military base that has ever been there, BTW.

We had military base there and lied that it was a "traning center
#12".

NATO was never going to deploy any bases or nuclear weapons in
Ukraine. It's only a Putin's crazy dream. It's Russia who was

Also NATO has never been going to expand to the East, BTW. When
the

Who told you that?

USSR gave up the East Germany it was told like that. And it is
funny

No, it's a fake. No one found even a single agreement between NATO
and SU about that.

You deceive yourself because you want it:

Mikhail Gorbachev says der Spiegel, and Putin, is full of beans -

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not -to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/


So who is deceiving who? The man who was there, or the man who is
making stuff up?

I think we all know the answer to that question.

--Lee

--
Be Stupid

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

//Hello Lee,//

on *27.02.22* at *19:33:09* You wrote in Area *FIDONEWS*
to *Tim Schattkowsky* about *"Ukraine National Anthem"*.

Hello Tim,

A good dictator doesn't give a shite about bodybags.

His people do. And without stability in his country, he is toast.

Think of 1984: It doesnt matter if the war in Eurasia even exists ...

Not in the world of Newspeak* ...

double plus true

Regards,
Tim

--- WinPoint 401.1
* Origin: Original WinPoint Origin! (2:240/1120.29)

C'mon Ursula ...

I think she delivered, listening to the latest press release. A really impressive package of sanctions issued by the EU Commission, IMHO.

Ursula Gertrud von der Leyen, a Belgian born German, president of the European Commission. Not bad for a woman in a man's world...


..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

I think she delivered, listening to the latest press release.

I forgot:

https://youtu.be/oAHzr1jROfg




..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Tim,

A good dictator doesn't give a shite about bodybags.

His people do. And without stability in his country, he is toast.

Think of 1984: It doesnt matter if the war in Eurasia even exists ...

Not in the world of Newspeak* ...

double plus true

I loved Big Brother.

--Lee

--
Whose streets? / Our streets!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Ursula Gertrud von der Leyen, a Belgian born German, president of the European Commission. Not bad for a woman in a man's world...

What's understood in Scandinavian and Nordic countries, is that women are better suited to lead a country than men. They will not go to war over frivolities ... of course, there are exceptions too like that Brazilian corrupt chick...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello Bj�rn,

On Monday February 28 2022 03:20, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

C'mon Ursula ...

I think she delivered, listening to the latest press release. A
really impressive package of sanctions issued by the EU Commission,
IMHO.

That Putin now mentions the N words indicates that the sanctions are going to hurt him. At least that he thinks so...

Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)

//Hello Lee,//

on *28.02.22* at *3:29:52* You wrote in Area *FIDONEWS*
to *Tim Schattkowsky* about *"Ukraine National Anthem"*.

I loved Big Brother.

Me too. It is scaringly precise in explaining the world, and it seems to be more correct every day.

Regards,
Tim

--- WinPoint 401.1
* Origin: Original WinPoint Origin! (2:240/1120.29)

Hi, Lee Lofaso!
I read your message from 27.02.2022 22:33

DP>>> Hizbollah. It even killed soviet diplomat in 80s and captured 3
DP>>> others, but USSR did nothing against them except for much talking
DP>>> And take Syria - how many people were tortured there for decades
DP>>> in prisons like one in Tandmour.

ak>> It's easy - when all peaceful ways to solve the problem end,
ak>> terrorists and rebels always will appear. It's life.

LL> How does that make Putin any different, given his actions on
LL> Ukraine?

Well, those rebels were Russians.

<skipped>
ak>> You are too young and you don't know the scandals when Americans
ak>> soldiers humiliated Iraqi prisoners in the most dishonest ways.
ak>> They treated them like animals. However, I believe is a common
ak>> feature of the people who work in prisons. Not all course.

LL> The soldiers who did that to Iraqi prisoners were courts martialed.

I don't think that Russian torturers were given medals.

LL> Russians protesting Putin's actions are being put in jail. There is
LL> no telling what their jailers are doing to them.

It is disgrace, no doubt. It means that the guard dogs should always
serve their duty on chain and were not allowed to guard the street outside.

<skipped>

LL> So who is deceiving who? The man who was there, or the man who is
LL> making stuff up?
LL> I think we all know the answer to that question.

Do you think Gorbachev gave up the East Germany without any conditions?

Bye, Lee!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
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Hello, alexander!

Monday February 28 2022 20:04, you wrote to Lee Lofaso:

How does that make Putin any different, given his actions on
Ukraine?

Well, those rebels were Russians.

Many people who thought with them were also Russians.

The soldiers who did that to Iraqi prisoners were courts
martialed.

I don't think that Russian torturers were given medals.

Most of them - yes, got medals.

So who is deceiving who? The man who was there, or the man who
is making stuff up? I think we all know the answer to that
question.

Do you think Gorbachev gave up the East Germany without any
conditions?

If we have a document with conditions - why it's not pblic and why Gorbachev is silent about it?

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Bj�rn!

28 Feb 22 03:20, Bj�rn Felten wrote to Ward Dossche:

Ursula Gertrud von der Leyen, a Belgian born German, president of
the European Commission. Not bad for a woman in a man's world...

Hard to believe I'd ever find she's doing something useful. I was so happy back then when we finally got rid of her father whose politics and their consequences were a huge burden both for Lower Saxony and Germany as a country for decades.


Regards,
Gerrit

... 6:19PM up 54 days, 5:14, 5 users, load averages: 0.17, 0.38, 0.44

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: Ideas of lust and dying (2:240/12)

Hi, Dmitry Protasoff!
I read your message from 27.02.2022 13:19

DP>>> Hizbollah. It even killed soviet diplomat in 80s and captured 3
DP>>> others, but USSR did nothing against them except for much talking
DP>>> And take Syria - how many people were tortured there for decades
DP>>> in prisons like one in Tandmour.

ak>> It's easy - when all peaceful ways to solve the problem end,
ak>> terrorists and rebels always will appear. It's life.

DP> Hizbollah appeared when peaceful solution came to Lebanon. The
DP> whole idea was kill peacekeepers, to continue the war. And Syria
DP> war like this from 60s, when they've started to physically
DP> eliminate opposition.

It a false idea that peace had born Hizbollah. And such organizations
have not and cannot be fluffy and peaceful.

ak>> You are too young and you don't know the scandals when Americans
ak>> soldiers humiliated Iraqi prisoners in the most dishonest ways.
ak>> They treated them like animals. However, I believe is a common
ak>> feature of the people who work in prisons. Not all course.

DP> I am way too old to remember that were also punished. And no one
DP> from FSB was punished for torturing russian political prisoners.

The bigger punitive force the more chance to have sadists in its rows.
To begin torturing very easy -- you just need to hate. Tortures done by
the Ukranian neo-nazis also is well known fact. As the fact that they
burned their opponents alive in Odessa in 2014.

<skipped>

DP> And as I said before - NATO is a good idea for any country,
DP> otherwise Russia will find some excuse to invade.

They thought that they can do any impudent things under Russia's nose
and run with it. I repeat, it was a gross mistake and every person
before doing something unpleasant to somebody should always think of consequences.

Ukraine crossed red lines in Donbass and got a heavy blow, and nobody
could save it from Russia with its umbrella.
Russia also got a heavy blow from the world after the recent invasion,
but it was a calculated policy. Probably Putin wants to separate
Russians from the world and lead it its own way. In other words he likes
the western reaction. ;-)

<skipped>
ak>> These fucking idiots created most groundless foolish havoc that
ak>> the world has not seen for ages.

DP> It's nonsense. Putin started the war and you are blaming someone
DP> else.

The events started in 2014 after the coup where ultra-natioalists were
the main force. It trigged everything, the Crimea referendum and Donbass including.

Bye, Dmitry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, alexander!

Monday February 28 2022 20:41, you wrote to me:

Hizbollah appeared when peaceful solution came to Lebanon. The
whole idea was kill peacekeepers, to continue the war. And Syria
war like this from 60s, when they've started to physically
eliminate opposition.

It a false idea that peace had born Hizbollah. And such organizations
have not and cannot be fluffy and peaceful.

Yes, Iran wanted to destroy Israel and created Hizbollah. It started it's operations by killing peacekeepers - 241 US soldiers and 58 French soldiers which came to contry to stop civil war. And Hizbollah used suicide bombers for that.
Please check their photo with suicide bombers on parade: https://images.csmonitor.com/csm/2012/03/HEZLIST-ORIGINS.JPG?alias=standard_900x600nc

Our brothers in arms! We are fighting together in Syria.

The bigger punitive force the more chance to have sadists in its rows.
To begin torturing very easy -- you just need to hate. Tortures done
by the Ukranian neo-nazis also is well known fact. As the fact that
they burned their opponents alive in Odessa in 2014.

No, it was an accidental event. Nothing like sending killers to Europe, the common thing for our country during last years.

And as I said before - NATO is a good idea for any country,
otherwise Russia will find some excuse to invade.

They thought that they can do any impudent things under Russia's nose
and run with it. I repeat, it was a gross mistake and every person
before doing something unpleasant to somebody should always think of consequences.

Our nose is running - more than 1 million Russians died from COVID and no one cares.
But sending your army to Ukraine which just wanted to be protected - is another story.

Ukraine crossed red lines in Donbass and got a heavy blow, and nobody could save it from Russia with its umbrella.

So we've sent there troops in 2014 and kraine crossed red lines?! For real?!

Russia also got a heavy blow from the world after the recent invasion,
but it was a calculated policy. Probably Putin wants to separate
Russians from the world and lead it its own way. In other words he
likes the western reaction. ;-)

So he likes that Russians will suffer? It's like some BSDM game between our people and president?
Is there any 'stop' words for it?

It's nonsense. Putin started the war and you are blaming someone
else.

The events started in 2014 after the coup where ultra-natioalists were
the main force. It trigged everything, the Crimea referendum and
Donbass including.

There was a coup in Burma last yeah and we are actually never blamed them for that. Our officials visited Burma after the coup and were shaking hands with new rules. And innocent people are being killed right now there.
So the whole story about "coup" is just a Putin's lie.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Dmitry!

28 Feb 22 20:11, Dmitry Protasoff wrote to alexander koryagin:

Do you think Gorbachev gave up the East Germany without any
conditions?

If we have a document with conditions - why it's not pblic and why Gorbachev is silent about it?

Gorbachev already statet years ago that there were no such conditions for the German reunification (and all the conditions they agreed on have been fulfiled). The topic came up later, but never reached the state of formal approval. In hindsight, this probably should have been done.


Regards,
Gerrit

... 9:44PM up 54 days, 8:39, 5 users, load averages: 0.22, 0.45, 0.48

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: We're telling tales of communication (2:240/12)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Gerrit!

Monday February 28 2022 21:44, you wrote to me:

Gorbachev already statet years ago that there were no such conditions
for the German reunification (and all the conditions they agreed on
have been fulfiled). The topic came up later, but never reached the
state of formal approval. In hindsight, this probably should have been done.

Soviet Union was collapsing, we had civil war in some regions, no money to feed our people, just finished war in Afghanistan and almost no one here cared about some unified Germany and DDR.
My aunt visited DDR in ~88 (if I remember correctly) and told us - "those Germans live better than we do! what a shame!".

The whole idea to start a war to protect DDR where most of the people wanted reunification was a very weird idea for average Russian who wanted to buy more toilet paper and VCR (to watch US movies).


Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Tim,

I loved Big Brother.

Me too. It is scaringly precise in explaining the world, and it seems to be
more correct every day.

From beginning to end. The last four words of Orwell's novel
are chilling - "He loved Big Brother." Those who have read the
novel would know that all too well.

--Lee

--
Black lives matter!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Dmitry,

[..]

Do you think Gorbachev gave up the East Germany without any
conditions?

If we have a document with conditions - why it's not pblic and why Gorbachev
is silent about it?

There is video -

"Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" ~Ronald Reagan in Berlin

Gorbachev complied, without saying a word (in English or in Russian).

--Lee

--
Whose streets? / Our streets!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Lee!

Tuesday March 01 2022 01:48, you wrote to me:

Gorbachev complied, without saying a word (in English or in Russian).

Gorbachev was busy with problems in his own country, no one in USSR cared much about Berlin wall in 1989.
I am from Kuzbass region where in 1989 coal miners started protests, with political slogans.
Coal was exported to Japan, with payments in hard currency, it was very important for SU.

Coal miners started those protests because we had soap shortage and they were unable to wash enough after the work.

If you don't have enough soap for coal miners - how you are supposed to supply troops in DDR? The whole country was collapsing, DDR problem was something very alien to average russian citizen.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

//Hello Lee,//

on *01.03.22* at *0:47:50* You wrote in Area *FIDONEWS*
to *Tim Schattkowsky* about *"Ukraine National Anthem"*.

Me too. It is scaringly precise in explaining the world, and it seems to
be more correct every day.

From beginning to end. The last four words of Orwell's novel are chilling - "He loved Big Brother." Those who have read the novel would know that all too well.

A song comes to my mind: history repeats itself ...

As people forget the book, the things we went through in the past, we again have to argue over bullsthit that already found its judgement a long time ago ...

Learned a new word recently: bothsiderism ... fits perfectly in today.

Regards,
Tim

--- WinPoint 401.1
* Origin: Original WinPoint Origin! (2:240/1120.29)

Hi, Dmitry Protasoff!
I read your message from 01.03.2022 00:42

DP> The whole idea to start a war to protect DDR where most of the
DP> people wanted reunification was a very weird idea for average
DP> Russian who wanted to buy more toilet paper and VCR (to watch US
DP> movies).

But people of Crimea could not want reunification. Because they were
Russians. ;-)

Bye, Dmitry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, alexander!

Tuesday March 01 2022 14:44, you wrote to me:

The whole idea to start a war to protect DDR where most of the
people wanted reunification was a very weird idea for average
Russian who wanted to buy more toilet paper and VCR (to watch US
movies).

But people of Crimea could not want reunification. Because they were Russians. ;-)

People in Crimea voted for independence from Soviet Union in 1991, no one forced them to do it.
And DDR was not annexed by West Germany, no troops entered DDR and no one blocked Soviet forces there.

The real story was that Russia used it's military base to take Crimea from Ukraine, although we had a pact with Ukraine signed in 1997 that we respect it's borders.

Do you know that many Russian citizens are now trapped in Ukraine because our embassy just closed and never asked them to leave? The are mostly women and children, visiting their relatives. In Kiev, in Kharkov, where we are bombing residental areas.. We were liyng publicly while our embassy was burning papers and evacuating themselves.

And now you are telling me that we care about Russians?
We started a war even without formal declaration, like Germany did in 1941 to us by boming our cities at 5 am.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hi, Dmitry Protasoff!
I read your message from 01.03.2022 15:22

DP>>> The whole idea to start a war to protect DDR where most
DP>>> of the people wanted reunification was a very weird
DP>>> idea for average Russian who wanted to buy more toilet
DP>>> paper and VCR (to watch US movies).
ak>> But people of Crimea could not want reunification. Because
ak>> they were Russians.;-)
DP> People in Crimea voted for independence from Soviet Union in
DP> 1991, no one forced them to do it.

They were promised prosperity in bilingual Ukraine. This promise was
dragged in the mire.

Bye, Dmitry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
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* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, alexander!

Tuesday March 01 2022 17:10, you wrote to me:

People in Crimea voted for independence from Soviet Union in
1991, no one forced them to do it.

They were promised prosperity in bilingual Ukraine. This promise was dragged in the mire.

Putin promised prosperity to Russians many times. And failed.
And now I don't even see how it's possible to end this conflict.
And what to do with Ukraine.
And do I really need to live in Russia? Some of my friends left already during last 4 days.

Putin is destroying our future.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Dmitry,

People in Crimea voted for independence from Soviet Union in
1991, no one forced them to do it.

They were promised prosperity in bilingual Ukraine. This promise was
dragged in the mire.

Putin promised prosperity to Russians many times. And failed.
And now I don't even see how it's possible to end this conflict.
And what to do with Ukraine.
And do I really need to live in Russia? Some of my friends left already during last 4 days.

Putin is destroying our future.

Russia has no future under Putin.
Not everything can be blamed on Putin.
But he is a big part as to why Russia is suffering.
There are no winners in times of war.
Old men sending young men to die.
For no earthly reason other than their own selfish interests.
What a tragedy for all, soldiers and civilians alike.
Regardless of side they are on.

It is rumored that Putin will declare martial law in Russia.
Probably sooner, rather than later, if he has not done so already.

Those who remain stuck in Russia will have to ride it out.
And hope they survive.

Good luck.

--Lee

--
Love trumps hate!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Lee!

Friday March 04 2022 15:53, you wrote to me:

Those who remain stuck in Russia will have to ride it out.
And hope they survive.

Even head of our state-owned air carrier Aeroflot flew from Russia :)


Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hi, Lee Lofaso!
I read your message from 04.03.2022 17:53

DP>>>> People in Crimea voted for independence from Soviet
DP>>>> Union in 1991, no one forced them to do it.
ak>>> They were promised prosperity in bilingual Ukraine.
ak>>> This promise was dragged in the mire.
DP>> Putin promised prosperity to Russians many times. And
DP>> failed. And now I don't even see how it's possible to end
DP>> this conflict. And what to do with Ukraine.
DP>> And do I really need to live in Russia? Some of my friends
DP>> left already during last 4 days.
DP>> Putin is destroying our future.

LL> Russia has no future under Putin.
LL> Not everything can be blamed on Putin.
LL> But he is a big part as to why Russia is suffering.

Due to the good propaganda most Russians think that Russia suffers
because of the EU and US. Most Russians like Putin as their defender and
just person. ;)

PS: BTW they prohibit selling goods in Russia and blocked currency
accounts of banks. It means that dollar and euro are not very necessary
in Russia any more, and the exchange rate will not sore too high. ;-)

Bye, Lee!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hello Alexander,

[..]

Putin is destroying our future.

Russia has no future under Putin.
Not everything can be blamed on Putin.
But he is a big part as to why Russia is suffering.

Due to the good propaganda most Russians think that Russia suffers
because of the EU and US. Most Russians like Putin as their defender and just person. ;)

It is a natural desire wanting to trust the leader of one's country.
Especially in times of crisis. But truths cannot be hidden forever.

PS: BTW they prohibit selling goods in Russia and blocked currency accounts of banks. It means that dollar and euro are not very necessary
in Russia any more, and the exchange rate will not sore too high. ;-)

The economic ranking of Russia is 11th in the world, with a GDP
of $1.528 trillion, and a population of 145 million, with a GDP per
capita of $10,846.

That is about the same size as South Korea.

The effects of sanctions imposed on Russia will basically cut its
ecnomony in half, leaving it about the same size as Taiwan.

Only the very wealthy will be able to afford anything of value.
Assuming such things can be found.

--Lee

--
Make 7-Up Yours

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello, alexander!

Saturday March 05 2022 08:44, you wrote to Lee Lofaso:

PS: BTW they prohibit selling goods in Russia and blocked currency accounts of banks. It means that dollar and euro are not very
necessary in Russia any more, and the exchange rate will not sore too high. ;-)

Euro and dollars are in high demand in Russia at the moment. Long queues in banks just to take them out of accounts.


Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hi, Lee Lofaso!
I read your message from 05.03.2022 18:57

DP>>>> Putin is destroying our future.
LL>>> Russia has no future under Putin. Not everything can be blamed on
LL>>> Putin. But he is a big part as to why Russia is suffering.

ak>> Due to the good propaganda most Russians think that Russia suffers
ak>> because of the EU and US. Most Russians like Putin as their
ak>> defender and just person.

LL> It is a natural desire wanting to trust the leader of one's
LL> country. Especially in times of crisis. But truths cannot be hidden
LL> forever.

It is difficult to say. Propaganda becomes strong when it contains a
good part of the truth. And the truth is that the Russian army,
actually, does in Ukraine the same things the Ukraine army has been
doing for 8 years, and even now it is still shelling Donetsk, for
instance. It has appeared that near Donetsk a huge Ukrainian army group
was concentrated this winter for some reason. Although, according Minsk agreement such forces cannot be there.

And the main fun is that all the blame for the creating the havoc in
2014 is put on Russians only. Shame. It is not they who make the people Ukraine to fight with each other.

ak>> PS: BTW they prohibit selling goods in Russia and blocked currency
ak>> accounts of banks. It means that dollar and euro are not very
ak>> necessary in Russia any more, and the exchange rate will not sore
ak>> too high.

LL> The economic ranking of Russia is 11th in the world, with a GDP of
LL> $1.528 trillion, and a population of 145 million, with a GDP per
LL> capita of $10,846.

LL> That is about the same size as South Korea.

Russians are ready to suffer for justice, if you don't know it. ;-)

LL> The effects of sanctions imposed on Russia will basically cut its
LL> ecnomony in half, leaving it about the same size as Taiwan.

LL> Only the very wealthy will be able to afford anything of value.
LL> Assuming such things can be found.

Well, the sanctions are heavy no doubt. But if Ukrainian ultras have
some brains they would realized that their military resistance is a very
small part in the world efforts to restrain Putin. Ukrainians could do
this war bloodless. They could allow Russian troops enter in Ukraine,
and the world suctions would do the rest. In this case Ukraine would not
be destroyed, multiple lives would have been saved.

Bye, Lee!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

And the main fun is that all the blame for the creating the havoc in
2014 is put on Russians only. Shame. It is not they who make the people Ukraine to fight with each other.

The main "fun" in Ukraine in 2014 are separatists. Russian backed separatists.

Russians are ready to suffer for justice, if you don't know it. ;-)

You call an invasion justice?

There is nothing in Ukraine for Russia. There never was an there never will be.

Well, the sanctions are heavy no doubt. But if Ukrainian ultras have
some brains they would realized that their military resistance is a very small part in the world efforts to restrain Putin. Ukrainians could do
this war bloodless. They could allow Russian troops enter in Ukraine,
and the world suctions would do the rest. In this case Ukraine would not
be destroyed, multiple lives would have been saved.

A better solution is if Russia stayed out of Ukraine instead of sending an invasion for to kill civilians.

It didn't happen like that but if you think you can explain it away then carry on.

Russia not only wages war on Ukraine but on truth. Here in the west we know the truth but you may not.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-5
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hello, alexander!

Sunday March 06 2022 20:32, you wrote to Lee Lofaso:

It is difficult to say. Propaganda becomes strong when it contains a
good part of the truth. And the truth is that the Russian army,
actually, does in Ukraine the same things the Ukraine army has been
doing for 8 years, and even now it is still shelling Donetsk, for

The same story. Russia sent forces to Ukraine in 2014 and managed to keep this conflict alive with only the one reason - to start current war with Ukraine.
Putin announced that Ukraine should not exist. Clear as day.

Russians are ready to suffer for justice, if you don't know it. ;-)

They are not. I can see that every day while talking to dozens of Russians.

Well, the sanctions are heavy no doubt. But if Ukrainian ultras have
some brains they would realized that their military resistance is a
very small part in the world efforts to restrain Putin. Ukrainians

No, they are fighting for their Motherland.

could do this war bloodless. They could allow Russian troops enter in Ukraine, and the world suctions would do the rest. In this case
Ukraine would not be destroyed, multiple lives would have been saved.

Putin is just a crazy madman. You should never surrender to crazy madman.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Alan Ianson!

** On Sunday 06.03.22 - 10:04, Alan Ianson wrote to alexander koryagin:

There is nothing in Ukraine for Russia. There never was an there never will be.

Apparently it's rich in mineral resources.

A better solution is if Russia stayed out of Ukraine
instead of sending an invasion for to kill civilians.

A logical, sensible leader might do that. Develop good
business ties - and then prosper together.

A former prez. to Latvia, Vaira Vike-Freiberga, recently stated
that "Putin is a narcissist, psychopath, egomaniac and
unhinged", all in one sentence. Trained as a psychologist, she
is probably actually qualified to say that. She stated that he
does not care for the well-being of other people.

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.51
* Origin: --> . <-- (2:221/1.58)

Apparently it's rich in mineral resources.

Russia is also rich in natural resources. I don't think that is what Putin wants.

A logical, sensible leader might do that. Develop good
business ties - and then prosper together.

Yes, that would be mutually beneficial. Putin is only concerned with his own benefit. I wonder if he has realized yet there is no benefit in his war.

A former prez. to Latvia, Vaira Vike-Freiberga, recently stated
that "Putin is a narcissist, psychopath, egomaniac and
unhinged", all in one sentence. Trained as a psychologist, she
is probably actually qualified to say that. She stated that he
does not care for the well-being of other people.

He certainly is unhinged. He has played the nuclear card. Now the west is also calculating..

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-5
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 06.03.2022 21:04

ak>> And the main fun is that all the blame for the creating the havoc
ak>> in 2014 is put on Russians only. Shame. It is not they who make
ak>> the people Ukraine to fight with each other.

AI> The main "fun" in Ukraine in 2014 are separatists. Russian backed
AI> separatists.

You are fooled. The Russian rebels appeared a good time _after_ the ultra-nationalists cope in Kiev when bilingual Ukraine had been
violently demolished and its legal president had to run away to save his
life. And quite logically a huge mass of people in east and south of
Ukraine could not accept it. The reckless violence by nationalist
trigged all pensive events in Ukraine.

No wonder however. Those nationalists are fucking children of
totalitarian regimes and they could not imagine a democratic way of
reforms. They showed a kind of national fascism -- totalitarian
suppression of opponents.

ak>> Russians are ready to suffer for justice, if you don't know it.
AI> You call an invasion justice?

Well you then probably call justice a 8-years siege of Donbass with 14 thousand killed? All this time everything was all right and democratic?
Why you has been shut up then and is so loud now?

AI> There is nothing in Ukraine for Russia. There never was an there
AI> never will be.

You forgot that eastern Ukraine has always had closest ties with Russia
and is Russian speaking. And this was one of the reasons for the attack
on the eastern regions of Ukraine after the cope in 2014.

ak>> Well, the sanctions are heavy no doubt. But if Ukrainian ultras
ak>> have some brains they would realized that their military
ak>> resistance is a very small part in the world efforts to restrain
ak>> Putin. Ukrainians could do this war bloodless. They could allow
ak>> Russian troops enter in Ukraine, and the world suctions would do
ak>> the rest. In this case Ukraine would not be destroyed, multiple
ak>> lives would have been saved.

AI> A better solution is if Russia stayed out of Ukraine instead of
AI> sending an invasion for to kill civilians.

Even now Russian troops cannot stop shelling of Donetsk.

AI> It didn't happen like that but if you think you can explain it away
AI> then carry on.

I just try to be objective. And don't follow Putin's propaganda. The
main thing you should understand on the west that both partis of the
conflict are guilty for it creation. But the start was the nationalistic
cope in 2014.

AI> Russia not only wages war on Ukraine but on truth. Here in the west
AI> we know the truth but you may not.

How do you know the truth if you have not even a single correspondent on
the Russian side of the conflict? ;-)

Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Dmitry Protasoff!
I read your message from 07.03.2022 00:23

ak>> It is difficult to say. Propaganda becomes strong when it contains
ak>> a good part of the truth. And the truth is that the Russian army,
ak>> actually, does in Ukraine the same things the Ukraine army has
ak>> been doing for 8 years, and even now it is still shelling Donetsk,
ak>> for

DP> The same story. Russia sent forces to Ukraine in 2014 and managed
DP> to keep this conflict alive with only the one reason - to start
DP> current war with Ukraine. Putin announced that Ukraine should not
DP> exist. Clear as day.

People in eastern and southern Ukraine were too close to Russia to allow
them to be eliminated. I think elimination of a bilingual Ukraine was a foolish and criminal act. Lawlessness bore lawlessness, as a rule.

ak>> Russians are ready to suffer for justice, if you don't know it.

DP> They are not. I can see that every day while talking to dozens of
DP> Russians.

I would speak in general, not by dozens.

ak>> Well, the sanctions are heavy no doubt. But if Ukrainian ultras
ak>> have some brains they would realized that their military
ak>> resistance is a very small part in the world efforts to restrain
ak>> Putin. Ukrainians

DP> No, they are fighting for their Motherland.

You don't understand. Let Russian troops enter where they want but fix
the lawlessness of the act. It would a peaceful bloodless resistance.
Russian troops would have nothing to do in Ukraine.

ak>> could do this war bloodless. They could allow Russian troops enter
ak>> in Ukraine, and the world suctions would do the rest. In this case
ak>> Ukraine would not be destroyed, multiple lives would have been
ak>> saved.

DP> Putin is just a crazy madman. You should never surrender to crazy
DP> madman.

I hope Zelensky understands it. However he tries to drag into the
conflict NATO and the US in his appeals.


Bye, Dmitry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

The main "fun" in Ukraine in 2014 are separatists. Russian backed
separatists.

You are fooled.

No, and I won't be fooled by you.

The Russian rebels appeared a good time _after_ the
ultra-nationalists cope in Kiev when bilingual Ukraine had been
violently demolished and its legal president had to run away to save his life. And quite logically a huge mass of people in east and south of
Ukraine could not accept it. The reckless violence by nationalist
trigged all pensive events in Ukraine.

There was no coup, or cope as you call it. The people of Ukraine did not want to go in the direction that Viktor Yanukovych wanted to take the country and so they revolted and ousted him.

I could go on about that but I think you get the idea?

No wonder however. Those nationalists are fucking children of
totalitarian regimes and they could not imagine a democratic way of
reforms. They showed a kind of national fascism -- totalitarian
suppression of opponents.

That is what Russia is doing in a peaceful, sovereign nation.

You call an invasion justice?

Well you then probably call justice a 8-years siege of Donbass with 14 thousand killed? All this time everything was all right and democratic?
Why you has been shut up then and is so loud now?

No, as I said the situation in the east of the country is separatists. Russia backed separatists. Do you think Russia has any roll in solving Ukraine problems? No, Russia has played a roll in exacerbating them for it's own percieved gains.

There is nothing in Ukraine for Russia. There never was an there
never will be.

You forgot that eastern Ukraine has always had closest ties with Russia
and is Russian speaking. And this was one of the reasons for the attack
on the eastern regions of Ukraine after the cope in 2014.

Russian is a very common language in Ukraine. Many in all parts of Ukraine speak both languages.

A man can speak war or peace in any language. It's best to speak a language your target audience can understand.

Well, the sanctions are heavy no doubt. But if Ukrainian ultras
have some brains they would realized that their military
resistance is a very small part in the world efforts to restrain
Putin. Ukrainians could do this war bloodless. They could allow
Russian troops enter in Ukraine, and the world suctions would do
the rest. In this case Ukraine would not be destroyed, multiple
lives would have been saved.

Ukrainians have not started a war, Russia did. Russia gave the citizens of Ukraine no choice. They has bombed both Russian and Ukrainian speakers indescriminately.

Russia is not in Ukraine protecting Russian speakers, it is killing them along with Ukrainian speakers.

A better solution is if Russia stayed out of Ukraine instead of
sending an invasion for to kill civilians.

Even now Russian troops cannot stop shelling of Donetsk.

Of course they can, but Putin needs to save face somehow and I don't see a way for him to do that. So, the killing continues.

I just try to be objective. And don't follow Putin's propaganda. The
main thing you should understand on the west that both partis of the
conflict are guilty for it creation. But the start was the nationalistic
cope in 2014.

Russia started and continues this war. That is not a hard fact to be objective about.

How do you know the truth if you have not even a single correspondent on
the Russian side of the conflict? ;-)

I don't have a Russian correspondent sitting next to me here, but the last one I was reading says that millions of Russians think this war is a catastophy and are protesting the war at great risk to themselves.

This is very much a Putin vs Ukraine war and not a Russia vs Ukraine war.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-5
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hello, alexander!

Monday March 07 2022 17:13, you wrote to me:

The same story. Russia sent forces to Ukraine in 2014 and
managed to keep this conflict alive with only the one reason -
to start current war with Ukraine. Putin announced that Ukraine
should not exist. Clear as day.

People in eastern and southern Ukraine were too close to Russia to
allow them to be eliminated. I think elimination of a bilingual

"Eleminated" is just a wrong word, do you think that ossetians in Russia were "eliminated"?

Ukraine was a foolish and criminal act. Lawlessness bore lawlessness,
as a rule.

Ukraine us still bilingual. People use Russian kanguage every day. It's even more bilingual than Tatarstan in Russia.
And our country decided not to evacuate Russians citizens from Ukraine, our state officials lied to them that there will be no war.
And now they are trapped, they cannot escape via Poland, because they don't have visas.
Our embassy just left without doing anything to help them.

This is how our country treats our citizens! Who speaks Russian, btw.

Russians are ready to suffer for justice, if you don't know it.

They are not. I can see that every day while talking to dozens
of Russians.

I would speak in general, not by dozens.

Russians already leaving Russia in big numbers, although we don't have any war inside our territory.

No, they are fighting for their Motherland.

You don't understand. Let Russian troops enter where they want but fix
the lawlessness of the act. It would a peaceful bloodless resistance.
Russian troops would have nothing to do in Ukraine.

Finns were ready to fight with USSR and now Finland is a very nice place to live. Otherwise it would be just another poor former Soviet republic.
Ukraine is doing the same.

And Puting lied many times, why do you think he won't incorporate Ukraine into Russia? Do you still trust him? :)

Putin is just a crazy madman. You should never surrender to
crazy madman.

I hope Zelensky understands it. However he tries to drag into the
conflict NATO and the US in his appeals.

He wants to protect Ukraine, that's all.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Dmitry,

And now they are trapped, they cannot escape via Poland, because they
don't have visas.

Incorrect ... Ukrainians fleeing into Poland, and as a consequence into the EU, need no passport nor visa. Some kind of identification comes in handy but even a membership of the Mickey Mouse club will do.

So far 2 million Ukrainians have crossed the border and that would've been impossible had there been a visa-requirement ... Refugees receive immediate aid, immediate refugee-status and are dispersed over de EU to spread the burden on the locals. Tens of thousands of people have opened houses and are harbouring the refugees for free, giving them shelter, hygiene, food ...

There was a rumour in Russia that Russian students in the west are kicked-off from universities. That is also incorrect, they are even supported in these trying times...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Ward!

Tuesday March 08 2022 15:40, you wrote to me:

And now they are trapped, they cannot escape via Poland, because
they don't have visas.

Incorrect ... Ukrainians fleeing into Poland, and as a consequence
into the EU, need no passport nor visa. Some kind of identification
comes in handy but even a membership of the Mickey Mouse club will do.

Ukranians, but not Russians with Russian passport and without Ukranian passport.
We had many women with children visiting their relatives in Ukarine.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 07.03.2022 21:56

AI>>> The main "fun" in Ukraine in 2014 are separatists. Russian backed
AI>>> separatists.

ak>> You are fooled.
AI> No, and I won't be fooled by you.

ak>> The Russian rebels appeared a good time _after_ the ultra-
ak>> nationalists cope in Kiev when bilingual Ukraine had been
ak>> violently demolished and its legal president had to run away to
ak>> save his life. And quite logically a huge mass of people in east
ak>> and south of Ukraine could not accept it. The reckless violence by
ak>> nationalist trigged all pensive events in Ukraine.

AI> There was no coup, or cope as you call it. The people of Ukraine
AI> did not want to go in the direction that Viktor Yanukovych wanted
AI> to take the country and so they revolted and ousted him.

Can you apply this to the storming of the Capitol in the US by the
Trumps' supporters? Suppose they would overthrown Biden, and imagine
that the Biden's supporters would not have accepted the changing of
power and would take arms?

AI> I could go on about that but I think you get the idea?

The talking is always better than wars.

ak>> No wonder however. Those nationalists are fucking children of
ak>> totalitarian regimes and they could not imagine a democratic way
ak>> of reforms. They showed a kind of national fascism -- totalitarian
ak>> suppression of opponents.

AI> That is what Russia is doing in a peaceful, sovereign nation.

You blindly don't want to note the totalitarian methods of the Ukrainian nationalistic regime towards Russian speaking population. All "love" to Ukraine that Russians now are being inoculated are based on threats,
violence, bans and discrimination. To defend rights of Russians in
Ukraine has been simply dangerous for the last 8 years.

AI>>> You call an invasion justice?

ak>> Well you then probably call justice a 8-years siege of Donbass
ak>> with 14 thousand killed? All this time everything was all right
ak>> and democratic? Why you has been shut up then and is so loud now?

AI> No, as I said the situation in the east of the country is
AI> separatists. Russia backed separatists. Do you think Russia has any
AI> roll in solving Ukraine problems? No, Russia has played a roll in
AI> exacerbating them for it's own percieved gains.

Nobody wanted to separate from Ukraine when its authority conducted a
wise, balanced, bilingual policy, very logical in such bilingual
countries like Ukraine. But some nationalistic idiots crashed everything
that was built after Ukraine became an independent state. Actually a few thousand extremists in Kiev made the cope in 2014.

AI>>> There is nothing in Ukraine for Russia. There never was an there
AI>>> never will be.

ak>> You forgot that eastern Ukraine has always had closest ties with
ak>> Russia and is Russian speaking. And this was one of the reasons
ak>> for the attack on the eastern regions of Ukraine after the cope in
ak>> 2014.

AI> Russian is a very common language in Ukraine. Many in all parts of
AI> Ukraine speak both languages.

For the person is most important which language he speaking at home, in
which language he thought. For up to 46% of Ukrainian this language is Russian, not even speaking about so called Russian speaking areas in the
east and south. To demand from this people to refuse teaching their
children in Russian, make Russian newspapers, radio, TV-channels is a totalitarian, nationalistic violent way. Actually on the verge of Nazi
way, because in this situation there is no smell of democracy and
freedom in Ukraine after 2014.

<skipped>
AI> Ukrainians have not started a war, Russia did. Russia gave the
AI> citizens of Ukraine no choice. They has bombed both Russian and
AI> Ukrainian speakers indescriminately.

This war began in 2014. But until now it was in Donbass area. I support helping to besieged people of Donbass, but I think that Putin's idea to
clean all Ukraine from Nazi is crazy and unrealisable. Ukraine was
always divided and it always be. The only positive thing for the war
maybe will be that many Ukrainians now will feel by themselves what the
people of Donbass has felt for the last 8 years.

<skipped>
ak>> I just try to be objective. And don't follow Putin's propaganda.
ak>> The main thing you should understand on the west that both parties
ak>> of the conflict are guilty for it creation. But the start was the
ak>> nationalistic cope in 2014.

AI> Russia started and continues this war. That is not a hard fact to
AI> be objective about.

The war was started in 2014. And, the crazy Putin's operation in Ukraine
is its unexpected and illogical continuation. Nobody expected it and
believed that such a thing could happen. It happened after Putin had
grabbed all the power in his hand and removed the strong people who
could object him.

ak>> How do you know the truth if you have not even a single
ak>> correspondent on the Russian side of the conflict?

AI> I don't have a Russian correspondent sitting next to me here, but
AI> the last one I was reading says that millions of Russians think
AI> this war is a catastophy and are protesting the war at great risk
AI> to themselves.

Russia is a big country.

AI> This is very much a Putin vs Ukraine war and not a Russia vs
AI> Ukraine war.

But if you want to be objective you should not dissolve the reason of
the situation in a Putin's figure only -- ugly face for many. The
problem exists without Putin.

Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hello Alexander,

Putin is destroying our future.

Russia has no future under Putin. Not everything can be blamed on
Putin. But he is a big part as to why Russia is suffering.

Due to the good propaganda most Russians think that Russia suffers
because of the EU and US. Most Russians like Putin as their
defender and just person.

It is a natural desire wanting to trust the leader of one's
country. Especially in times of crisis. But truths cannot be hidden
forever.

It is difficult to say. Propaganda becomes strong when it contains a
good part of the truth.

Propaganda has limitations. In the world today, everybody has their
own means of obtaining the information they seek. As such, it is only
a pipe dream of those who want to limit or control news media.

And the truth is that the Russian army, actually, does in Ukraine the same things the Ukraine army has been doing for 8 years, and even now it is still shelling Donetsk, for instance.

The truth is no longer what one side or another says it is. People
are now able to find out, almost instantaneously, what is happening
around the world.

It has appeared that near Donetsk a huge Ukrainian army group
was concentrated this winter for some reason. Although, according Minsk agreement such forces cannot be there.

The Minsk Agreements are null and void given Putin's actions.
That is not propaganda, but fact. Neither side fully complied
with the terms, and were not likely to do so. But they were
a basis that could have been used to build on.

And the main fun is that all the blame for the creating the havoc in
2014 is put on Russians only. Shame. It is not they who make the people Ukraine to fight with each other.

Putin's actions in regards to Ukraine were unjustified and unprovoked.
Lives have been lost, both Russian and Ukrainian. As a result, blood
is on his hands. Does that mean Ukraine is totally innocent? Of course
not. There were groups in Donbas region that were far-right extremist.
But that was Ukraine's problem to deal with. And should not have been
Russia's concern.

PS: BTW they prohibit selling goods in Russia and blocked currency
accounts of banks. It means that dollar and euro are not very
necessary in Russia any more, and the exchange rate will not sore
too high.

The economic ranking of Russia is 11th in the world, with a GDP of
$1.528 trillion, and a population of 145 million, with a GDP per
capita of $10,846.

That is about the same size as South Korea.

Russians are ready to suffer for justice, if you don't know it. ;-)

Revenge is a dish best served cold. ~Klingon proverb

The effects of sanctions imposed on Russia will basically cut its
ecnomony in half, leaving it about the same size as Taiwan.

Only the very wealthy will be able to afford anything of value.
Assuming such things can be found.

Well, the sanctions are heavy no doubt. But if Ukrainian ultras have
some brains they would realized that their military resistance is a very small part in the world efforts to restrain Putin.

Putin is finished. His military advisors now realise it was a serious
mistake or miscalculation to have attempted to invade Ukraine. The cost
was way too high, and will continue to get higher as time goes on.
Not only have the people of Ukraine united, but so has NATO. As well
as the European Union. Indeed, the entire world has condemned Putin's
action. Except maybe for China, which has refused to go along with
sanctions.

Ukrainians could do this war bloodless.

Russia attacked Ukraine, not the other way around. An unjustified
and unprovoked attack on a democratically-elected sovereign state.

They could allow Russian troops enter in Ukraine, and the world suctions would do the rest.

"I do not want to beat you up. But if you do not give me what I want,
I will." ~bully to intended victim

In this case Ukraine would not be destroyed, multiple lives would have been
saved.

In this case, the victim refused to give his lunch money to the bully,
and the bully beat himself up, losing two top generals in the process.

Seriously, the road to peace is never through war. We should all
pray for peace, in our own way. Give peace a chance.

--Lee

--
Big Or Small We Lay Them All

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Alexander,

[..]

Russia not only wages war on Ukraine but on truth. Here in the west
we know the truth but you may not.

How do you know the truth if you have not even a single correspondent on the
Russian side of the conflict? ;-)

The truth. Or course. But whose truth? That is the question. Is it
the world according to Biden? The world according to Putin? The world
according to Garp? Maybe it is the world according to Lee. Or even the
world according to Alexander. The truth is whatever we make it out to
be. Which might explain why Jesus remained silent when Pilate asked
him that very question.

A WORLD STATESMAN.
~by Elizabeth H. Connor

With our President as leader,
Lies the world’s destiny,
Where in righteousness and freedom
Will prevail equally.

Holding forth the very brightest
Aspirations for all,
A universal peace and trust,
In freedom’s bugle call.

Highest ideals personified,
The noblest of mankind,
Where honor and democracy
Together are combined.

When might will be replaced by right,
And peace shall dawn again,
Our nation’s annals will reveal
The glory of his reign.

She wrote those words long before all of us were born. Have things
changed at all since her time? Sometimes I wonder. Even without nukes,
we are able to cause massive destruction and cause more deaths than
ever thought possible.

--Lee

--
We! Reject! The president-nonelect!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

There was no coup, or cope as you call it. The people of Ukraine
did not want to go in the direction that Viktor Yanukovych wanted
to take the country and so they revolted and ousted him.

Can you apply this to the storming of the Capitol in the US by the
Trumps' supporters? Suppose they would overthrown Biden, and imagine
that the Biden's supporters would not have accepted the changing of
power and would take arms?

No, the storming of the capitol in the US was based on the big lie of Donald Trump and a large swath of the republican party.

I don't think it had a very good chance of success. It was an attack on democracy by the republican party supported by groups like the oath keepers. It was not a popular uprising.

I believe one of those oath keepers was convicted on all charges today but I need to read more.

The talking is always better than wars.

Yes.

That is what Russia is doing in a peaceful, sovereign nation.

You blindly don't want to note the totalitarian methods of the Ukrainian nationalistic regime towards Russian speaking population. All "love" to Ukraine that Russians now are being inoculated are based on threats, violence, bans and discrimination. To defend rights of Russians in
Ukraine has been simply dangerous for the last 8 years.

No, I don't believe it happened this way.

You call an invasion justice?

Well you then probably call justice a 8-years siege of Donbass
with 14 thousand killed? All this time everything was all right
and democratic? Why you has been shut up then and is so loud now?

I am not saying the death of anyone is good. I am saying that some in the Donbass region are separatists, a minority supported by Russia and that is why it has come to this.

Nobody wanted to separate from Ukraine when its authority conducted a
wise, balanced, bilingual policy, very logical in such bilingual
countries like Ukraine. But some nationalistic idiots crashed everything
that was built after Ukraine became an independent state. Actually a few thousand extremists in Kiev made the cope in 2014.

If it was wise and balanced then why a popular uprising to oust the then leader?

The uprising in 2014 was not about the Donbass region. The people of Ukraine did not want a Putin puppet in power as is the case in Belarus and so they ousted him. The people of Ukraine are free to choose their future and they have done so.

The Russian federation can not force their will on Ukraine. They can try through military might but this will fail at great cost to Russia in international opinion and the loss of some soldiers sent in to fight and also in economic sanctions.

The people of Ukraine will pay in blood, sweat and tears for a war they didn't start.

There is nothing good here for Russia, Ukraine or the world.

You forgot that eastern Ukraine has always had closest ties with
Russia and is Russian speaking. And this was one of the reasons
for the attack on the eastern regions of Ukraine after the cope in
2014.

I did not forget that. That is not a bad thing. It's not something to start a war over.

For the person is most important which language he speaking at home, in
which language he thought. For up to 46% of Ukrainian this language is Russian, not even speaking about so called Russian speaking areas in the
east and south. To demand from this people to refuse teaching their
children in Russian, make Russian newspapers, radio, TV-channels is a totalitarian, nationalistic violent way. Actually on the verge of Nazi
way, because in this situation there is no smell of democracy and
freedom in Ukraine after 2014.

Yes, Russians are not so different than Ukrainians.

This war began in 2014.

Don't be romantic. This war started Feb 24, 2022 although Russia took some time to build up the military force around Ukraine's border. This war is Russia's doing and not someone else.

But until now it was in Donbass area. I support
helping to besieged people of Donbass, but I think that Putin's idea to
clean all Ukraine from Nazi is crazy and unrealisable. Ukraine was
always divided and it always be. The only positive thing for the war
maybe will be that many Ukrainians now will feel by themselves what the people of Donbass has felt for the last 8 years.

It is crazy because there are no nazi's in Ukraine aside from the russian forces that now occupy and attack the peace loving nation of Ukraine.

Russia started and continues this war. That is not a hard fact to
be objective about.

The war was started in 2014.

Bzzt.

And, the crazy Putin's operation in Ukraine is its unexpected and illogical continuation. Nobody expected it and believed that such a thing could
happen. It happened after Putin had grabbed all the power in his hand and removed the strong people who could object him.

Russia has become an oligarchy. The Oligarch's depend on each other. Is that the only power in Russia today?

I don't have a Russian correspondent sitting next to me here, but
the last one I was reading says that millions of Russians think
this war is a catastophy and are protesting the war at great risk
to themselves.

Russia is a big country.

So it is and it is clear that most of the people of Russia have nothing to gain from a war with Ukraine, and no desire to be there in a state of war.

But if you want to be objective you should not dissolve the reason of
the situation in a Putin's figure only -- ugly face for many. The
problem exists without Putin.

While the Russian federation is responsible for the invasion it was ordered by Putin for some crazy idea that does not benefit the peoople of Russia, or anyone else.

The problem is the oligarchs. No one else in Russia seems to have a say in what is happening in Russia. They can't even say this is a war and they can't even say I disagree. So they sit back and watch, powerless to do or say anything.

A few brave souls do simply say "I disagree" in the town square at great personal cost to themselves.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-5
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hi, Dmitry Protasoff!
I read your message from 08.03.2022 16:53

ak>> People in eastern and southern Ukraine were too close to
ak>> Russia to allow them to be eliminated. I think elimination
ak>> of a bilingual
DP> "Eleminated" is just a wrong word, do you think that ossetians
DP> in Russia were "eliminated"?

Ossetians entered Russia voluntarily and learned Russian to be part of
Russia, nobody threatened them or fined. As for Russian speaking in
Ukraine they are much more numerous, and they have the right to be
treated on equal footing with Ukrainians.

ak>> Ukraine was a foolish and criminal act. Lawlessness bore
ak>> lawlessness, as a rule.
DP> Ukraine us still bilingual. People use Russian kanguage every

It is not true. New law about the state language strongly discriminates
the Russian language. Actually, according the law (the final stage of
which was planed in 2024) it will be almost impossible to issue Russian speaking newspapers, do Russian radio stations, Russian tv channels etc.

(Russian resource)
https://www.yaplakal.com/forum1/topic2379495.html


Bye, Dmitry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 09.03.2022 02:13

AI>>> There was no coup, or cope as you call it. The people of Ukraine
AI>>> did not want to go in the direction that Viktor Yanukovych wanted
AI>>> to take the country and so they revolted and ousted him.
ak>> Can you apply this to the storming of the Capitol in the US by the
ak>> Trumps' supporters? Suppose they would overthrown Biden, and
ak>> imagine that the Biden's supporters would not have accepted the
ak>> changing of power and would take arms?

AI> No, the storming of the capitol in the US was based on the big lie
AI> of Donald Trump and a large swath of the republican party.

Well, Ukrainian nationalists also lied that Yanukovich sold himself to
Moscow, and it was a complete lie.

AI> I don't think it had a very good chance of success. It was an
AI> attack on democracy by the republican party supported by groups
AI> like the oath keepers. It was not a popular uprising.

Yes, it was on less scale, but you can imagine that it could be on a
great scale. And in that case we will see something similar to the
Kiev's events in 2014.

<skipped>
AI>>> That is what Russia is doing in a peaceful, sovereign nation.
ak>> You blindly don't want to note the totalitarian methods of the
ak>> Ukrainian nationalistic regime towards Russian speaking
ak>> population. All "love" to Ukraine that Russians now are being
ak>> inoculated are based on threats, violence, bans and
ak>> discrimination. To defend rights of Russians in Ukraine has been
ak>> simply dangerous for the last 8 years.
AI> No, I don't believe it happened this way.

Yeah, those who are against Russia cannot be bad guys. Or, maybe, this
will be closer -- "those guys are bastards, but they are our bastards!" ;-)

<skipped>
ak>> Nobody wanted to separate from Ukraine when its authority
ak>> conducted a wise, balanced, bilingual policy, very logical in such
ak>> bilingual countries like Ukraine. But some nationalistic idiots
ak>> crashed everything that was built after Ukraine became an
ak>> independent state. Actually a few thousand extremists in Kiev made
ak>> the cope in 2014.

AI> If it was wise and balanced then why a popular uprising to oust the
AI> then leader?

I say you, the mutiny was similar to the Capitol storming. The
difference was that western countries greatly threaten Yanukovich so
that he would not cease the mutiny by the police force. The agreement
for peace had been achieved, but the same evening somebody started
shooting at the crowd and the police. Of course nationalists easily
blamed Yanukovich, although it had no sense for him after the agreement concluded.
In short all "popular uprising" was done by a small group of people.

<skipped>
ak>> This war began in 2014.

AI> Don't be romantic. This war started Feb 24, 2022 although Russia
AI> took some time to build up the military force around Ukraine's
AI> border. This war is Russia's doing and not someone else.

Better to say that in 2022 Russia openly entered in the Ukrainian civil
war that had started in 2014.

ak>> But until now it was in Donbass area. I support helping to
ak>> besieged people of Donbass, but I think that Putin's idea to clean
ak>> all Ukraine from Nazi is crazy and unrealisable. Ukraine was
ak>> always divided and it always be. The only positive thing for the
ak>> war maybe will be that many Ukrainians now will feel by themselves
ak>> what the people of Donbass has felt for the last 8 years.

AI> It is crazy because there are no nazi's in Ukraine aside from the
AI> russian forces that now occupy and attack the peace loving nation
AI> of Ukraine.

Uhu, this is from another planet, not Ukraine: http://pics.rsh.ru/img/IMGx2028456_4t6v1y1j.jpg http://pics.rsh.ru/img/IMGx2029194_lk19dzdx.jpg

ak>> And, the crazy Putin's operation in Ukraine is its unexpected and
ak>> illogical continuation. Nobody expected it and believed that such
ak>> a thing could happen. It happened after Putin had grabbed all the
ak>> power in his hand and removed the strong people who could object
ak>> him.

AI> Russia has become an oligarchy. The Oligarch's depend on each
AI> other. Is that the only power in Russia today?

It seems Putin has grabbed all the power and he surrounded himself with
loyal military and police units. No oligarch can make him to change his
ways.

<skipped>
AI> A few brave souls do simply say "I disagree" in the town square at
AI> great personal cost to themselves.

Putin has created many laws and forces to suppress such acts. Modern electronics, spy technology has brought the world of Orwell into Russia quicker than it penetrates into other countries. :-\

That's why any countries should NOT create such omnipresent spying
structures! Because one day you will find that you cannot change your
country.

Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
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*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, alexander!

Wednesday March 09 2022 08:41, you wrote to me:

"Eleminated" is just a wrong word, do you think that ossetians
in Russia were "eliminated"?

Ossetians entered Russia voluntarily and learned Russian to be part of

Ukraine left USSR after referendum, as free choice of people. No one forced them to become independed state with ukranian as offical language.

Russia, nobody threatened them or fined. As for Russian speaking in

They have to use Russian in schools and universities, otherwise they will be punished, even jailed.

Ukraine they are much more numerous, and they have the right to be
treated on equal footing with Ukrainians.

Chechens in Chechnya have to use Russian in schools, but they are majority in Chechnya. And they never joined Russia voluntarily.

Ukraine us still bilingual. People use Russian kanguage every

It is not true. New law about the state language strongly

It's no true. I've been in Kiev some time ago and had no problem with my Russian.

discriminates the Russian language. Actually, according the law (the
final stage of which was planed in 2024) it will be almost impossible
to issue Russian speaking newspapers, do Russian radio stations,
Russian tv channels etc.

(Russian resource)
https://www.yaplakal.com/forum1/topic2379495.html

According to the news you just have to provide ukranian language copy. Ukranians were at war with Russia for 8 years, don't forget about that.



Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hello, alexander!

Wednesday March 09 2022 09:49, you wrote to Alan Ianson:

No, the storming of the capitol in the US was based on the big
lie of Donald Trump and a large swath of the republican party.

Well, Ukrainian nationalists also lied that Yanukovich sold himself to
Moscow, and it was a complete lie.

How do you know about his relatons with Putin? Sources?
We now all know that Putin thinks that Ukraine should not exist. And it was his idea for many years.

I don't think it had a very good chance of success. It was an
attack on democracy by the republican party supported by groups
like the oath keepers. It was not a popular uprising.

Yes, it was on less scale, but you can imagine that it could be on a
great scale. And in that case we will see something similar to the
Kiev's events in 2014.

It's not similar. Ukraine had free elections after Yanukovich, no one took power by force.
USA had elections also, and Trump lost.

No, I don't believe it happened this way.

Yeah, those who are against Russia cannot be bad guys. Or, maybe, this
will be closer -- "those guys are bastards, but they are our
bastards!" ;-)

I am against current Russian actions and I live in Russia. So what? :)

I say you, the mutiny was similar to the Capitol storming. The
difference was that western countries greatly threaten Yanukovich so
that he would not cease the mutiny by the police force. The agreement
for peace had been achieved, but the same evening somebody started shooting at the crowd and the police. Of course nationalists easily
blamed Yanukovich, although it had no sense for him after the
agreement concluded. In short all "popular uprising" was done by a
small group of people.

You can't fully control people with weapons who are ready to kill.
So probably no one asked Yanukovich for permission.

Don't be romantic. This war started Feb 24, 2022 although Russia
took some time to build up the military force around Ukraine's
border. This war is Russia's doing and not someone else.

Better to say that in 2022 Russia openly entered in the Ukrainian
civil war that had started in 2014.

War in 2014 was also started by Russia.


Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hi, Lee Lofaso!
I read your message from 08.03.2022 21:37

LL> She wrote those words long before all of us were born. Have
LL> things changed at all since her time? Sometimes I wonder. Even
LL> without nukes, we are able to cause massive destruction and
LL> cause more deaths than ever thought possible.

But check it out the fact -- Russian troops captured the Zaporojskya
Nuclear Station and this station is still provides Ukraine with
electricity. Can be such things during a war?

Bye, Lee!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
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* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

No, the storming of the capitol in the US was based on the big lie
of Donald Trump and a large swath of the republican party.

Well, Ukrainian nationalists also lied that Yanukovich sold himself to Moscow, and it was a complete lie.

Donald Trump's lie was an obvious one. He said "Frankly, we did win this election" when he did not. He sounded like an autocrat. I don't ever recall a president of the US making such a ridiculous statement after losing an election.

I don't think it had a very good chance of success. It was an
attack on democracy by the republican party supported by groups
like the oath keepers. It was not a popular uprising.

Yes, it was on less scale, but you can imagine that it could be on a
great scale. And in that case we will see something similar to the
Kiev's events in 2014.

It was on much less scale. The capitol was cleared after some hours of that turmoil and went back to work and finished what they were there to do later in the day.

If it was wise and balanced then why a popular uprising to oust the
then leader?

I say you, the mutiny was similar to the Capitol storming.

It is very different. Those who stormed the capitol wanted a president who lost an election to continue in that role.

The uprising in Ukraine was because the people wanted to oust their president.

The difference was that western countries greatly threaten Yanukovich so
that he would not cease the mutiny by the police force. The agreement
for peace had been achieved, but the same evening somebody started
shooting at the crowd and the police. Of course nationalists easily
blamed Yanukovich, although it had no sense for him after the agreement concluded.

The people of Ukraine did not want to go in the direction Yanukovich was going to take the country. So much so that that they rose up and ousted him.

Something like that could happen in Russia too although I believe people in Russia are scared (for good reason) to stand up.

In short all "popular uprising" was done by a small group of people.

This uprising was big enough to oust Yanukovich. There was also a big uprising in Belarus not long ago around the election there. It did not succeed in any change.

Better to say that in 2022 Russia openly entered in the Ukrainian civil
war that had started in 2014.

No, Russia invaded Ukraine. There is no other way to say it if you want to be honest. Are you aware of the damage that Russia has done in Ukraine to this point, and continues to do? There is damage all over Ukraine from missiles and toe to toe warfare. Large numbers of civilian casualties. Civilian infratucture (homes and apartments) is being targeted. Large numbers of Russian soldiers also. It is all needless.

Uhu, this is from another planet, not Ukraine:

Ah, no. The images you present don't prove anything and are not an accurate picture of Ukraine.

http://pics.rsh.ru/img/IMGx2028456_4t6v1y1j.jpg http://pics.rsh.ru/img/IMGx2029194_lk19dzdx.jpg

Neo nazis and white supremacists exist. They are among us.

It seems Putin has grabbed all the power and he surrounded himself with
loyal military and police units. No oligarch can make him to change his
ways.

He has surrounded himself with yes men. He couldn't get good advice at this point if his life depended on it. That has probably been the case for decades.

A few brave souls do simply say "I disagree" in the town square at
great personal cost to themselves.

Putin has created many laws and forces to suppress such acts. Modern electronics, spy technology has brought the world of Orwell into Russia quicker than it penetrates into other countries. :-\

So much so that you cannot believe what you see on TV in Russia today. It is all propaganda designed to make you believe what the state wants you to believe.

That's why any countries should NOT create such omnipresent spying structures! Because one day you will find that you cannot change your country.

Sometimes you have to find the truth when it is hidden.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-5
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hello, alexander!

Wednesday March 09 2022 12:10, you wrote to Lee Lofaso:

She wrote those words long before all of us were born. Have
things changed at all since her time? Sometimes I wonder. Even
without nukes, we are able to cause massive destruction and
cause more deaths than ever thought possible.

But check it out the fact -- Russian troops captured the Zaporojskya Nuclear Station and this station is still provides Ukraine with electricity. Can be such things during a war?

Sure! Soviet power stations were providing electricity under German occupation during WWII.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hi, Dmitry Protasoff!
I read your message from 09.03.2022 12:45

LL>>> She wrote those words long before all of us were born.
LL>>> Have things changed at all since her time? Sometimes I
LL>>> wonder. Even without nukes, we are able to cause
LL>>> massive destruction and cause more deaths than ever
LL>>> thought possible.
ak>> But check it out the fact -- Russian troops captured the
ak>> Zaporojskya Nuclear Station and this station is still
ak>> provides Ukraine with electricity. Can be such things
ak>> during a war?
DP> Sure! Soviet power stations were providing electricity under
DP> German occupation during WWII.

But check another fact -- when the Crimea separated the Ukrainian
nationalists had cut off fresh water canal and electricity to the
peninsular. All the people there became enemies. Do you know how many civilians has suffered because of this, children including? The answer
is simple -- the nationality of this people was not correct, and they
did not deserve human treating, even while officially they were called Ukrainian citizens.

Bye, Dmitry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
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* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, alexander!

Wednesday March 09 2022 13:47, you wrote to me:

Sure! Soviet power stations were providing electricity under
German occupation during WWII.

But check another fact -- when the Crimea separated the Ukrainian nationalists had cut off fresh water canal and electricity to the peninsular. All the people there became enemies. Do you know how many civilians has suffered because of this, children including? The answer

It wasn't exactly britgh idea but no one died because of that.
When Putin was thinking about annexation of Crimea - it was his responsibility to think about consequences.

But now we know he is very weak about long term planning.

is simple -- the nationality of this people was not correct, and they
did not deserve human treating, even while officially they were
called Ukrainian citizens.

"Human treating" means that they never deserved Russian invasion? And Putin lied again that "it wasn't Russian army".

Now Russians are leaving Russia because they also think that "human treating" is not something that Putin is doing to them.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hello Dmitry!

** On Wednesday 09.03.22 - 15:48, you wrote..

It wasn't exactly britgh idea but no one died because of that.
When Putin was thinking about annexation of Crimea - it was his responsibility to think about consequences.

But now we know he is very weak about long term planning.

I have to wonder if he's weak in other ways. Pictures of him
show a puffed-up face. Prednisone? Perhaps he's dealing with an
illness - and wants to make it into the history books doing
something "grand" before times runs out.


--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.51
* Origin: --> . <-- Oh look.. A point! (2:221/1.58)

Hello, August!

Wednesday March 09 2022 08:54, you wrote to me:

I have to wonder if he's weak in other ways. Pictures of him
show a puffed-up face. Prednisone? Perhaps he's dealing with an
illness - and wants to make it into the history books doing
something "grand" before times runs out.

Yeah, agree.
I am not a psychiatrist, can't say exactly how his behavoir is called.

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Lee Lofaso wrote to alexander koryagin <=-

It has appeared that near Donetsk a huge Ukrainian army group
was concentrated this winter for some reason. Although, according Minsk agreement such forces cannot be there.

The Minsk Agreements are null and void given Putin's actions.
That is not propaganda, but fact. Neither side fully complied
with the terms, and were not likely to do so. But they were
a basis that could have been used to build on.

"Whataboutism" is alive and well.


... Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 09.03.2022 12:28

AI>>> No, the storming of the capitol in the US was based on the big
AI>>> lie of Donald Trump and a large swath of the republican party.

ak>> Well, Ukrainian nationalists also lied that Yanukovich sold
ak>> himself to Moscow, and it was a complete lie.

AI> Donald Trump's lie was an obvious one. He said "Frankly, we did win
AI> this election" when he did not. He sounded like an autocrat. I
AI> don't ever recall a president of the US making such a ridiculous
AI> statement after losing an election.

AI>>> I don't think it had a very good chance of success. It was an
AI>>> attack on democracy by the republican party supported by groups
AI>>> like the oath keepers. It was not a popular uprising.

ak>> Yes, it was on less scale, but you can imagine that it could be on
ak>> a great scale. And in that case we will see something similar to
ak>> the Kiev's events in 2014.

AI> It was on much less scale. The capitol was cleared after some hours
AI> of that turmoil and went back to work and finished what they were
AI> there to do later in the day.

Imagine that the events would go like in Kiev -- the protesters would
make barricades around the Capitol, threw Molotov cocktail and rocks at
the police, Russian envoy would come to the barricades to encourage the protesters with crackers and juice, as it did auntie Nuland in Kiev in
2014? And Russia would demand to observe human rights of the protesters
and refuse from violence? ;-)

ak>> I say you, the mutiny was similar to the Capitol storming.

AI> It is very different. Those who stormed the capitol wanted a
AI> president who lost an election to continue in that role.

But they claimed that unfair shuffling was during the elections and the elections are illegal and Biden.

AI> The uprising in Ukraine was because the people wanted to oust their
AI> president.

It was the opinion of a few thousand people.

ak>> The difference was that western countries greatly threaten
ak>> Yanukovich so that he would not cease the mutiny by the police
ak>> force. The agreement for peace had been achieved, but the same
ak>> evening somebody started shooting at the crowd and the police. Of
ak>> course nationalists easily blamed Yanukovich, although it had no
ak>> sense for him after the agreement concluded.

AI> The people of Ukraine did not want to go in the direction
AI> Yanukovich was going to take the country. So much so that that they
AI> rose up and ousted him.

Thousands people of the USA also didn't want Biden and hate him. In
short the situation is similar.

AI> Something like that could happen in Russia too although I believe
AI> people in Russia are scared (for good reason) to stand up.

ak>> In short all "popular uprising" was done by a small group of
ak>> people.

AI> This uprising was big enough to oust Yanukovich. There was also a
AI> big uprising in Belarus not long ago around the election there. It
AI> did not succeed in any change.

No it is not correct. Simply saying, Yanukovich was too liberal with protesters. No other president in the world could lead such a liberal
policy towards such protests. Naturally, Lukashenko was not such a
person. ;-) Yanukovich was the most democratic leader in post-soviet
space after Gorbachev.

ak>> Better to say that in 2022 Russia openly entered in the Ukrainian
ak>> civil war that had started in 2014.

AI> No, Russia invaded Ukraine. There is no other way to say it if you
AI> want to be honest. Are you aware of the damage that Russia has done
AI> in Ukraine to this point, and continues to do? There is damage all
AI> over Ukraine from missiles and toe to toe warfare. Large numbers of
AI> civilian casualties. Civilian infratucture (homes and apartments)
AI> is being targeted. Large numbers of Russian soldiers also. It is
AI> all needless.

Nobody targets home and apartments on purpose -- I don't know how you
can believe it. The number of victims comparable with Donbass victims.
If you think that shellings of Donentsk has been stopped today you are mistaken.

<skipped>

AI> He has surrounded himself with yes men. He couldn't get good advice
AI> at this point if his life depended on it. That has probably been
AI> the case for decades.

I would call it a political HIV. The guard system that should defend
organism started to eliminate both healthy and unhealthy organs and took
the functionality of a crazy dictator.

AI>>> A few brave souls do simply say "I disagree" in the town square
AI>>> at great personal cost to themselves.

ak>> Putin has created many laws and forces to suppress such acts.
ak>> Modern electronics, spy technology has brought the world of Orwell
ak>> into Russia quicker than it penetrates into other countries.

AI> So much so that you cannot believe what you see on TV in Russia
AI> today. It is all propaganda designed to make you believe what the
AI> state wants you to believe.

The matter is not in propaganda -- the matter is in impossibility of the protest. Orwell state prevents such events. The leader of a protest is arrested right when he left his home.

Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
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* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Dmitry Protasoff!
I read your message from 09.03.2022 11:16

<skipped>
DP>>> Ukraine us still bilingual. People use Russian kanguage every
ak>> It is not true. New law about the state language strongly

DP> It's no true. I've been in Kiev some time ago and had no problem
DP> with my Russian.

ak>> discriminates the Russian language. Actually, according the law
ak>> (the final stage of which was planed in 2024) it will be almost
ak>> impossible to issue Russian speaking newspapers, do Russian radio
ak>> stations, Russian tv channels etc.

ak>> (Russian resource)
ak>> https://www.yaplakal.com/forum1/topic2379495.html

DP> According to the news you just have to provide ukranian language
DP> copy. Ukranians were at war with Russia for 8 years, don't forget
DP> about that.

In short if Yanukovich has been in power Ukraine would have been a
prosperous peaceful country, and the nationalistic Maidan idiots would
not have put the world and Ukraine on its ears. ;-) The reason for that
was miserable. Probably they understand it now.

Bye, Dmitry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
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* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

alexander koryagin wrote to Alan Ianson <=-

Imagine that the events would go like in Kiev -- the protesters would
make barricades around the Capitol, threw Molotov cocktail and rocks at the police, Russian envoy would come to the barricades to encourage the protesters with crackers and juice, as it did auntie Nuland in Kiev in 2014? And Russia would demand to observe human rights of the protesters and refuse from violence? ;-)

I'm glad to see your sense of humor is intact in spite of recent events. ;)

But they claimed that unfair shuffling was during the elections and the elections are illegal and Biden.

Yes, they were making claims before the election also. They continue making baseless claims.

It was the opinion of a few thousand people.

Only a few thousand Ukraianians managed to oust the leader?

AI> The people of Ukraine did not want to go in the direction
AI> Yanukovich was going to take the country. So much so that that they
AI> rose up and ousted him.

Thousands people of the USA also didn't want Biden and hate him. In
short the situation is similar.

Yes, that is so. Nevertheless he did win the election by a large majority and he is the President of the USA.

ak>> In short all "popular uprising" was done by a small group of
ak>> people.

A popular uprising is not a small group of people.

AI> This uprising was big enough to oust Yanukovich. There was also a
AI> big uprising in Belarus not long ago around the election there. It
AI> did not succeed in any change.

No it is not correct. Simply saying, Yanukovich was too liberal with protesters. No other president in the world could lead such a liberal policy towards such protests. Naturally, Lukashenko was not such a
person. ;-) Yanukovich was the most democratic leader in post-soviet
space after Gorbachev.

I don't know Yanukovich. Never watched or was interested in him. We can call him left or right as you please, that is not the issue. The people of Ukraine didn't want to go in the direction he wanted to take the country and that is why he was ousted.

It has been many years now but I remember the crowds in the streets protesting his leadership and his downfall. It was a (very) popular uprising.

Nobody targets home and apartments on purpose -- I don't know how you
can believe it. The number of victims comparable with Donbass victims.
If you think that shellings of Donentsk has been stopped today you are mistaken.

As always the Ukraine military protects the people of Ukraine. Russia has been shelling Ukrainians including russian speaking Ukrainians all over Ukraine including the Donbass region.

And yes, the Russian military has been targetting civilians and civilian infrastructure. On Feb 26 and apartment tower in Kyiv was hit by a missile and the carnage has increased since then. Today a childrens hospital in Mariupol was hit and probably destroyed. It's been a daily occurance since the war started.

Perhaps if you were more upto date on current events we could debate these facts.

The matter is not in propaganda -- the matter is in impossibility of
the protest. Orwell state prevents such events. The leader of a protest
is arrested right when he left his home.

The protests do happen, so it is not impossible. Why arrest a protester, someone who disagrees with the war? They are not hurting anyone at all. They just say no to war.


Ttyl :-),
Al

... Bureaucrats cut red tape, lengthwise

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-5
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, alexander!

Thursday March 10 2022 08:35, you wrote to me:

In short if Yanukovich has been in power Ukraine would have been a prosperous peaceful country, and the nationalistic Maidan idiots would

Yanukovich was moving in Putin's direction, had all chances to become another authoritarian leader.
In any case - it's Ukraine's problem.

not have put the world and Ukraine on its ears. ;-) The reason for
that was miserable. Probably they understand it now.

It's a common tradition in Russia to blame everyone else for your own mistakes: USA, jews, nazis and so on.
But in this case we've failed a lot - Putin lied for many months that they will be no war and now we are shelling Kharkiv.
Who is gonna trust him now?

Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Alexander,

No it is not correct. Simply saying, Yanukovich was too liberal with protesters. No other president in the world could lead such a liberal policy towards such protests. Naturally, Lukashenko was not such a
person. ;-) Yanukovich was the most democratic leader in post-soviet
space after Gorbachev.

Democracy is the will of the people and accepting the fact that you can be voted out of office. He may have intended well, but that is not how democracy works.

Democracy means there are checks and balances and the person who has the title can be overruled ...

With Yanukovich such checks and balances were inexistant, there was no way for the people to interact via elections.

There is a name for a system of a supreme unquestioned leadership which acts for the best of the people on private initiative ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 10.03.2022 11:03

ak>> Imagine that the events would go like in Kiev -- the protesters
ak>> would make barricades around the Capitol, threw Molotov cocktail
ak>> and rocks at the police, Russian envoy would come to the
ak>> barricades to encourage the protesters with crackers and juice, as
ak>> it did auntie Nuland in Kiev in 2014? And Russia would demand to
ak>> observe human rights of the protesters and refuse from violence?

AI> I'm glad to see your sense of humor is intact in spite of recent
AI> events.

I can add that the choice of Nuland for crackers was not accidental. She
knows the people of the former USSR very well -- she was deputy director
for former Soviet Union affairs. So, in one Russian book for children
(by Arkadiy Gaydar), and she read that some Russian nasty boys can be
bribed by western enemies with big quantity of jam and crackers. So you
know now what she did in Kiev in 2014. ;-) Bingo!

ak>> It was the opinion of a few thousand people.
AI> Only a few thousand Ukraianians managed to oust the leader?

Almost all coups in history have been done by small groups of people.
People in general is like an obedient herd.

AI>> The people of Ukraine did not want to go in the direction
AI>> Yanukovich was going to take the country. So much so that that
AI>> they rose up and ousted him.

You could say it if Yanukovich would lost the fair elections.

ak>> Thousands people of the USA also didn't want Biden and hate him.
ak>> In short the situation is similar.

AI> Yes, that is so. Nevertheless he did win the election by a large
AI> majority and he is the President of the USA.

A half of Americans don't think so.

ak>>> In short all "popular uprising" was done by a small group of
ak>>> people.

AI> A popular uprising is not a small group of people.

In Kiev coup there participated a few thousand people, mostly
nationalists from western Ukraine. But the real popular uprising had
begun in the Ukrainian east and south, after the coup.

<skipped>
AI> And yes, the Russian military has been targetting civilians and
AI> civilian infrastructure. On Feb 26 and apartment tower in Kyiv was
AI> hit by a missile and the carnage has increased since then. Today a
AI> childrens hospital in Mariupol was hit and probably destroyed. It's
AI> been a daily occurance since the war started.

How many vistims you are told? No information? The mentioned maternity hospital in Mariupol was not functional -- it is correct.

ak>> The matter is not in propaganda -- the matter is in impossibility
ak>> of the protest. Orwell state prevents such events. The leader of a
ak>> protest is arrested right when he left his home.

AI> The protests do happen, so it is not impossible. Why arrest a
AI> protester, someone who disagrees with the war? They are not hurting
AI> anyone at all. They just say no to war.

Should I explain to you why protests are banned in the countries where
the power is kept by force of the dictator? Whose left hand is the army,
and right hand is the police? Why... ;-)

Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Ward Dossche!
I read your message from 10.03.2022 12:59

ak>> No it is not correct. Simply saying, Yanukovich was too
ak>> liberal with protesters. No other president in the world
ak>> could lead such a liberal policy towards such protests.
ak>> Naturally, Lukashenko was not such a person.;-) Yanukovich
ak>> was the most democratic leader in post-soviet space after
ak>> Gorbachev.
WD> Democracy is the will of the people and accepting the fact that
WD> you can be voted out of office. He may have intended well, but
WD> that is not how democracy works. Democracy means there are
WD> checks and balances and the person who has the title can be
WD> overruled ... With Yanukovich such checks and balances were
WD> inexistant, there was no way for the people to interact via elections.

I don't know where you take the information that there was no fair
elections in Ukraine when Yanukovich was President.


Bye, Ward!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Almost all coups in history have been done by small groups of people.
People in general is like an obedient herd.

In places where protest and freedom is outlawed, yes they are. At least until they do stand up.

That is not so in Ukraine where the people will stand up even against the odds like the people of Ukraine have do and are doing.

You could say it if Yanukovich would lost the fair elections.

It seems to me that Yanukovich lost. It was the will of the people or it wouldn't have happened. Democracy is about the will of the people.

Yes, that is so. Nevertheless he did win the election by a large
majority and he is the President of the USA.

A half of Americans don't think so.

It is not that much. It is half of the republican party, not Americans.

In Kiev coup there participated a few thousand people, mostly
nationalists from western Ukraine. But the real popular uprising had
begun in the Ukrainian east and south, after the coup.

Do you believe, or want me to believe that a few thousand people overthrough a popular leader and the rest just went along with that? No.

And yes, the Russian military has been targetting civilians and
civilian infrastructure. On Feb 26 and apartment tower in Kyiv was
hit by a missile and the carnage has increased since then. Today a
childrens hospital in Mariupol was hit and probably destroyed. It's
been a daily occurance since the war started.

How many vistims you are told? No information? The mentioned maternity hospital in Mariupol was not functional -- it is correct.

The hospital was functioning. There are images of pregnant women being taken away for treatment. Three people died and there were large numbers of injured as I'm sure you can imagine. The number of dead is likely to rise when the facts can be known. Over 1,000 died in Mariupol yesterday because of the bombardment of the city that has been ongoing for some days. Most people in Mariupol have no heat or power.

So no it is not correct to say the hospital not functional.

I haven't heard or read numbers of dead today but the last number I read was 2,300 civilians dead, not including Mariupol. The number of Russian soldiers killed is estimated at 12,000 by Ukraine authorities and the US miliatry says 8,000, at least they are sitting on that number for now.

Those numbers could be called best guesses at this point. The number of civilian casualties is thought to be conservative.

Should I explain to you why protests are banned in the countries where
the power is kept by force of the dictator?

No, I understand.

Whose left hand is the army, and right hand is the police? Why... ;-)

Because they are authoritarian.

To be honest I don't enjoy these conversations much. It's not because I don't like you or regular Russian people. I hope that you (and all Russian people, and people everywhere for that matter) can and will live in peace so they can simply go about their lives and enjoy time with friends and family.

If we could spend an afternoon/evening at the movies or have a game of bowling I would enjoy that very much and would make time for it.

Please don't get the idea that I don't like you or Russian people. It is Putin and men like him that I don't like, regardless of the country they reside in.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-5
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Alexander,

How many vistims you are told? No information? The mentioned maternity hospital in Mariupol was not functional -- it is correct.

The thing is ... as good as every western European country has their own news crews at several locations inside Ukraine. They do not have to rely on propagande from whichever side, not the Kremlin, not someone in Kiev.

Then, when presented with the facts as reported by independant news crews on site from Belgium, Netherlands, France, BBC, Germany and others and compare that to what we see in the official "Russian news" flashes I am abhored how an entire population of 140 million people is massively lied to and misled up to the extent they have no other option but believe the single remaining source of ... "what" ... because the free press has been silenced and you are imprisoned for merely using the word "war" ... It is not a re-writing of history, it is distorting it up to the moment when it actually is happening ... Lies are deliberately replacing fact and forcefully fed to an entire population.

People in countries such as mine which have a high degree of free speech are full of disbelief that a nation which has been so successful in high technology such as space-travel, medication, binkd and a number of others are downgraded to what it is now.

The damage done these past three weeks has destroyed all the goodwill that was created since Glasnost. Russia is backtracking 40-50 years in history at the darkest hours of Communism and totalitarianism. The Russian economy is not that impressive other than gas and oil ... it is perhaps has big as the entire Benelux I've had it worded (Belgium, Netherlands, Luxemburg) against the entire world-economy.

Russia will be banned from importing, exporting, trading, travel, aviation, sports, no access to the financial markets ... above all, much of this will not have to be imposed, it will be automatic because it is no longer a trustworthy trade-partner ... the toilet-paper in the supermarket here is worth more than the Ruble.

Russia is quickly pushing a law through that leased aircraft do not have to be returned to the owner and the contract can be paid in Rubles. Do you understand how ridiculous this is? There will be no specialized maintenance anymore other than changing the oil, there are not going to be any certified parts anymore for repairs after which aircraft will not be insured anymore ... 515 Boeings and Airbuses ... it will be the end of commercial aviation in Russia as we know it and Aeroflot in one blow has lost its good reputation ... I even let my own kids fly on it and before I allow that a lot has got to happen...

I hope you also don't believe this whole thing is about the Dombas region and a difference in language-speaking. My own country has a history of two main languages that kind of separates the country, it never is a problem. It only becomes a problem in the run-up to elections when minor politicians go hunting for votes. The language is not the issue. When we had major floods last summer killing 100+ people and destroying thousands of homes in 'the one region' the immediate and in general most help came from 'the other region'. People will help eachother and a language-difference probably points at something else, like an economic imbalance hinging on this ...

The Dombas-conflict was started by Russia in the first place in a carefully planned strategy years ahead, it was started by Russia and fuelled by Russia because somewhere down the line an excuse would be needed to start this "war". So when all the possible excuses were de-fused Putin decided upon a "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" scenario.

Proof? MH17 ... we know that flight MH17 was shot down by a Russian Buk-missile because of the impact of shrapnell on the forward section of the aircraft and the metal bullits found in the corpses of the cockpit crew. We know it was fired from within "rebel" territory, we know the "rebels" did not have such a device, pictures exist of the exact carrier that fired it before and after the firing, the names of the personnel that crewed it are also known and the commander is now standing trial as we speak but is not present because your lying and cheating government says it is not involved with all evidence pointing to the contrary...the carrier has been tracked leaving Russia and returning when the plane was shot down.

It's on my bucket-list to visit Russia again, meet with some Russian sysops, drink so much beer I will sing alomg in drinking-songs which I don't understand but make absolute sense at that moment. I'd want to visit Red Square and pay homage to Komarov, see that Lenin still is dead, visit the Hermitage in St.Peterburg, walk on the Nevsky Prospect, see the war ship Aurora which changed history and visit Chernobyl (yes, I know that is not Russia) ... now I don't know if all that will ever be possible anymore during my life-time...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello Tim,

Me too. It is scaringly precise in explaining the world, and it

seems to

be more correct every day.

From beginning to end. The last four words of Orwell's novel are

chilling

- "He loved Big Brother." Those who have read the novel would know

that

all too well.

A song comes to my mind: history repeats itself ...

As people forget the book, the things we went through in the past, we again
have to argue over bullsthit that already found its judgement a long time ago ...

Learned a new word recently: bothsiderism ... fits perfectly in today.

Learned something new from a book published on March 8, 2022 by
Margaret Atwood entitled "Burning Questions" relating to Orwell's
novel -

begin quote

I myself have written two works of “science fiction” or, if you prefer, “speculative fiction”: The Handmaid’s Tale and Oryx and Crake. Although lumped together by commentators who have spotted those things they have
in common—they are not “novels” in the Jane Austen sense, and both are set in the future—they are in fact dissimilar. The Handmaid’s Tale is a classic dystopia, which takes at least part of its inspiration from
George Orwell’s Nineteen Eighty-Four—particularly the epilogue. In a
BBC piece I did in June 2003 on the occasion of Orwell’s centenary
birthday, I said:

Orwell has been accused of bitterness and pessimism—of leaving us with
a vision of the future in which the individual has no chance, and where
the brutal, totalitarian boot of the all-controlling Party will grind
into the human face, for ever.

But this view of Orwell is contradicted by the last chapter in the book,
an essay on Newspeak—the doublethink language concocted by the regime.
By expurgating all words that might be troublesome—“bad” is no longer permitted, but becomes “double-plus-ungood”—and by making other words mean the opposite of what they used to mean—the place where people get tortured is the Ministry of Love, the building where the past is
destroyed is the Ministry of Information—the rulers of Airstrip One
wish to make it literally impossible for people to think straight.

end quote

Atwood has always been a bit of a feminist, as anyone who has read
her works (both fiction and non-fiction) would know. Upon reflection,
she is right in her analysis of Orwell's "1984" given the epilogue,
or essay on Newspeak. Had previously thought Orwell was poking fun
of Basic English, knowing Germans had tried to come up with a Basic
German for non-Germans to learn during the days of WWII.

--Lee

--
Nothing sucks like an Electrolux

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello, alexander!

Friday March 11 2022 09:00, you wrote to Alan Ianson:

children (by Arkadiy Gaydar), and she read that some Russian nasty

Arkadiy Gaydar was an alcoholic, because he killed a lot of Russians during our civil war.

boys can be bribed by western enemies with big quantity of jam and crackers. So you know now what she did in Kiev in 2014. ;-) Bingo!

Gaydar was part of propadanda during Stalin's repsessions agains Russian people.
He was drinking a lot and spent some time in mental hospital because he was a child soldier.

In Kiev coup there participated a few thousand people, mostly
nationalists from western Ukraine. But the real popular uprising had
begun in the Ukrainian east and south, after the coup.

Fake, Russia sent groups of fighters to DNR/LNR and invaded Crimea.
Kharkiv never had any uprisings and now fighting with Russians forces, in fact it doing better in comparison with Nazi invasion in 1941.


Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hi, Dmitry Protasoff!
I read your message from 12.03.2022 02:59

ak>> children (by Arkadiy Gaydar), and she read that some Russian nasty

DP> Arkadiy Gaydar was an alcoholic, because he killed a lot of
DP> Russians during our civil war.

I don't know how these two things can be connected, but surely you are
too serious about my joke about Nuland's motives. :-)

ak>> boys can be bribed by western enemies with big quantity of jam and
ak>> crackers. So you know now what she did in Kiev in 2014. Bingo!

DP> Gaydar was part of propadanda during Stalin's repsessions agains
DP> Russian people. He was drinking a lot and spent some time in mental
DP> hospital because he was a child soldier.

IMHO, judging by the appearance and actions of his grandson, the chief
of economic reforms in Russia of 90s Egor Gaydar, there were some
genetic defects in their family. ;-)

ak>> In Kiev coup there participated a few thousand people, mostly
ak>> nationalists from western Ukraine. But the real popular uprising
ak>> had begun in the Ukrainian east and south, after the coup.

DP> Fake, Russia sent groups of fighters to DNR/LNR and invaded Crimea.
DP> Kharkiv never had any uprisings and now fighting with Russians
DP> forces, in fact it doing better in comparison with Nazi invasion in
DP> 1941.

Knarkiv had avoided that havoc due to the wise and independent policy of
its mayor, Kernes, AFAIR, who didn't allowed nationalists to do
everything the wanted. It was an exception however.

Bye, Dmitry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Ward Dossche!
I read your message from 11.03.2022 11:27

ak>> How many vistims you are told? No information? The mentioned
ak>> maternity hospital in Mariupol was not functional -- it is
ak>> correct.

WD> The thing is... as good as every western European country has their
WD> own news crews at several locations inside Ukraine. They do not
WD> have to rely on propagande from whichever side, not the Kremlin,
WD> not someone in Kiev.

I've took your answer as "I don't know about victims, but they say on
our TV that the maternity hospital was attacked inhumanly". ;)

WD> Then, when presented with the facts as reported by independant news
WD> crews on site from Belgium, Netherlands, France, BBC, Germany and
WD> others and compare that to what we see in the official "Russian
WD> news" flashes I am abhored how an entire population of 140 million
WD> people is massively lied to and misled up to the extent they have
WD> no other option but believe the single remaining source
WD> of... "what"... because the free press has been silenced and you
WD> are imprisoned for merely using the word "war"... It is not a re-
WD> writing of history, it is distorting it up to the moment when it
WD> actually is happening... Lies are deliberately replacing fact and
WD> forcefully fed to an entire population.

A lie and propaganda exist on both sides. It will be simply a folly to
deny it. Such things are usual during the war. You should analyse and
filter the information. For instance, nationalists may say that people
in Odessa in 2014 burned themselves on purpose. But you should not
believe the information on the ground of its antirussian contence.

<skipped>
WD> Russia will be banned from importing, exporting, trading, travel,
WD> aviation, sports, no access to the financial markets... above all,
WD> much of this will not have to be imposed, it will be automatic
WD> because it is no longer a trustworthy trade-partner... the toilet-
WD> paper in the supermarket here is worth more than the Ruble.

Indeed Rouble is not necessary in your supermarket. But for a while the
EU relieved from sanctions Russian fuel industry. Russian banks are
under sanctions, but paying for resources nobody can cancel and they are allowed. That's how Putin gets its currency and it seems the west cannot refuse from Russian resources physically.

WD> Russia is quickly pushing a law through that leased aircraft do not
WD> have to be returned to the owner and the contract can be paid in
WD> Rubles. Do you understand how ridiculous this is? There will be no
WD> specialized maintenance anymore other than changing the oil, there
WD> are not going to be any certified parts anymore for repairs after
WD> which aircraft will not be insured anymore... 515 Boeings and
WD> Airbuses... it will be the end of commercial aviation in Russia as
WD> we know it and Aeroflot in one blow has lost its good reputation...
WD> I even let my own kids fly on it and before I allow that a lot has
WD> got to happen...

It is an economic war. Both parts want damnify each other. There are no special logic here, everything natural. After war I hope for the better. ;)

WD> I hope you also don't believe this whole thing is about the Dombas
WD> region and a difference in language-speaking. My own country has a
WD> history of two main languages that kind of separates the country,
WD> it never is a problem. It only becomes a problem in the run-up to

You simply don't know who Ukrainian nationalists are. Violence and
threats are their usual weapon to get their aims.

WD> elections when minor politicians go hunting for votes. The language
WD> is not the issue. When we had major floods last summer killing 100+
WD> people and destroying thousands of homes in 'the one region' the
WD> immediate and in general most help came from 'the other region'.
WD> People will help eachother and a language-difference probably
WD> points at something else, like an economic imbalance hinging on
WD> this...

I don't argue -- there can be perfectly good and happy bilingual states.
You don't understand only one important thing -- it is not necessary
that fascism is always has a political ground. National fascism is still
more dangerous and ugly.

WD> The Dombas-conflict was started by Russia in the first place in a
WD> carefully planned strategy years ahead, it was started by Russia
WD> and fuelled by Russia because somewhere down the line an excuse
WD> would be needed to start this "war". So when all the possible
WD> excuses were de-fused Putin decided upon a "Damn the torpedoes,
WD> full speed ahead" scenario.

You are free to think everything, but it is not necessary that you are
right.

WD> Proof? MH17... we know that flight MH17 was shot down by a Russian
WD> Buk-missile because of the impact of shrapnell on the forward
WD> section of the aircraft and the metal bullits found in the corpses
WD> of the cockpit crew. We know it was fired from within "rebel"
WD> territory, we know the "rebels" did not have such a device,
WD> pictures exist of the exact carrier that fired it before and after
WD> the firing, the names of the personnel that crewed it are also
WD> known and the commander is now standing trial as we speak but is
WD> not present because your lying and cheating government says it is
WD> not involved with all evidence pointing to the contrary... the
WD> carrier has been tracked leaving Russia and returning when the
WD> plane was shot down.

Whoever shot that plane, I think you don't believe that somebody planned
that shooting. Well, there is a possibility however, that somebody
wanted to frame the rebels and Russia. They lost most.

WD> It's on my bucket-list to visit Russia again, meet with some
WD> Russian sysops, drink so much beer I will sing alomg in drinking-
WD> songs which I don't understand but make absolute sense at that
WD> moment. I'd want to visit Red Square and pay homage to Komarov, see
WD> that Lenin still is dead, visit the Hermitage in St. Peterburg,
WD> walk on the Nevsky Prospect, see the war ship Aurora which changed
WD> history and visit Chernobyl (yes, I know that is not Russia)... now
WD> I don't know if all that will ever be possible anymore during my
WD> life-time...

I think that everything will be all right soon. Because both parties
should realise that the cause of this war is not worth of an eaten egg. Ukrainians and Russian can live next and do not compost each other
brains in the bilingual prosperous Ukraine.

Bye, Ward!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Alexander,

Whoever shot that plane, I think you don't believe that somebody planned that shooting. Well, there is a possibility however, that somebody
wanted to frame the rebels and Russia. They lost most.

I'm pretty convinced it was planned and on purpose ... why else shoot a Buk at an airplane ... They probably targeted another aircraft ... like a NATO radar plane ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello alexander!

12 Mar 22 13:04, alexander koryagin wrote to Ward Dossche:

I've took your answer as "I don't know about victims, but they say on
our TV that the maternity hospital was attacked inhumanly". ;)

Yeah, sure, given you want to go on blindfolded by Russian propaganda. OTOH, you may take it as "They did proper fact checks and along the way even discovered how Russian media produced fake news from it.".


Regards,
Gerrit

... 11:48AM up 65 days, 22:43, 5 users, load averages: 0.69, 0.57, 0.53

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: Tall orders to fulfil (2:240/12)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, alexander!

Saturday March 12 2022 11:57, you wrote to me:

Arkadiy Gaydar was an alcoholic, because he killed a lot of
Russians during our civil war.

I don't know how these two things can be connected, but surely you are
too serious about my joke about Nuland's motives. :-)

My colleagues are under shelling in Ukraine, I am too serious.
Gayday was drinking because he saw dead people in his dreams, people he killed in civil war.
That's why he was drinking a lot.

Gaydar was part of propadanda during Stalin's repsessions agains
Russian people. He was drinking a lot and spent some time in
mental hospital because he was a child soldier.

IMHO, judging by the appearance and actions of his grandson, the chief
of economic reforms in Russia of 90s Egor Gaydar, there were some
genetic defects in their family. ;-)

You sounds exactly like some Nazi, with "genetic defects" slogan.
USSR collapse was a disaster and your are blaming Gaydar and not Stalin and Lenin, who created our state which was based on corruption and crazy ideas.

Fake, Russia sent groups of fighters to DNR/LNR and invaded
Crimea. Kharkiv never had any uprisings and now fighting with
Russians forces, in fact it doing better in comparison with Nazi
invasion in 1941.

Knarkiv had avoided that havoc due to the wise and independent policy
of its mayor, Kernes, AFAIR, who didn't allowed nationalists to do
everything the wanted. It was an exception however.

And now Kharkiv is paying a price. Beeing destroyed by Russians who are "protecting Russians".


Best regards,
dp.

--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 11.03.2022 10:45

ak>> In Kiev coup there participated a few thousand people, mostly
ak>> nationalists from western Ukraine. But the real popular uprising
ak>> had begun in the Ukrainian east and south, after the coup.

AI> Do you believe, or want me to believe that a few thousand people
AI> overthrough a popular leader and the rest just went along with
AI> that? No.

If a crowd has weapons and when the President doesn't want to suppress
them down with force. It is possible. And Yanukovich has proved it. And
Pitin and Lukashenko has learnt a lot.

Well, imagine what would happen if the storming of the Capitol would not
be suppressed. As it was in Kiev in 2014 where the parliamentarian would
go to their work through the crowd, insults and threats.

AI>>> And yes, the Russian military has been targetting civilians and
AI>>> civilian infrastructure. On Feb 26 and apartment tower in Kyiv
AI>>> was hit by a missile and the carnage has increased since then.
AI>>> Today a childrens hospital in Mariupol was hit and probably
AI>>> destroyed. It's been a daily occurance since the war started.

ak>> How many vistims you are told? No information? The mentioned
ak>> maternity hospital in Mariupol was not functional -- it is
ak>> correct.

AI> The hospital was functioning. There are images of pregnant women
AI> being taken away for treatment. Three people died and there were

It had been proved that this woman was brought there after the shelling.
A propaganda in short.
And I say the you the following -- Russian media channels were shut up
and you relay only on the Ukrainian side of information. In this
situation your truth is hardly worth of a used condom. It is complete
wrong to shut up information from one side, even if you don't agree with
it. I am a strong supporter of free speech. People should decide themselves.

AI> large numbers of injured as I'm sure you can imagine. The number of
AI> dead is likely to rise when the facts can be known. Over 1,000 died
AI> in Mariupol yesterday because of the bombardment of the city that
AI> has been ongoing for some days. Most people in Mariupol have no
AI> heat or power.

AI> So no it is not correct to say the hospital not functional.

AI> I haven't heard or read numbers of dead today but the last number I
AI> read was 2,300 civilians dead, not including Mariupol. The number
AI> of Russian soldiers killed is estimated at 12,000 by Ukraine
AI> authorities and the US miliatry says 8,000, at least they are
AI> sitting on that number for now.

Propaganda can say anything on both sides. Reaction? After the UN has
accepted 14 thousand killed in Ukrainian Donbass siege nobody has said
nothing about it.

<skipped>


Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Ward Dossche!
I read your message from 12.03.2022 13:26

ak>> Whoever shot that plane, I think you don't believe that
ak>> somebody planned that shooting. Well, there is a
ak>> possibility however, that somebody wanted to frame the
ak>> rebels and Russia. They lost most.
WD> I'm pretty convinced it was planned and on purpose ... why else
WD> shoot a Buk at an airplane ... They probably targeted another
WD> aircraft ... like a NATO radar plane ...

Well, among 14 thousand civilians killed in Donbass siege almost all
were killed without intention. When Ukrainian side has shelled Donetsk
nobody can guarantee that the shells will not drop on the civilians. In
this sense the passengers in that plane were like people of Donbass. It
was a sad incident of course.

Bye, Ward!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Gerrit Kuehn!
I read your message from 12.03.2022 13:48

ak>> I've took your answer as "I don't know about victims, but
ak>> they say on our TV that the maternity hospital was attacked
ak>> inhumanly".;)
GK> Yeah, sure, given you want to go on blindfolded by Russian
GK> propaganda. OTOH, you may take it as "They did proper fact
GK> checks and along the way even discovered how Russian media produced
GK> fake news from it.".

Both sides are lying, that why it is wrong to shut up one side only. And
how can you appreciate the fakes from the Russian media if they shut up?

Bye, Gerrit!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Alexander,

In
this sense the passengers in that plane were like people of Donbass. It
was a sad incident of course.

Except, in this case it was a plane full with citizens of the Netherlands and they don't take shit for an answer ...

It's 2022 and I still can't believe this is happening ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hi! Ward,

On 13 Mar 2022, Ward Dossche said the following...

this sense the passengers in that plane were like people of Donbass. I was a sad incident of course.

WD> Except, in this case it was a plane full with citizens of the

Netherlands and they don't take shit for an answer ...

Our collective heartache has yet to be assuaged also. IIRC, there were 28 Australians on board as well others from various nationalities.

Cheers,
Paul.

... Modeming takes a lot of time. Oh well, I'd just be asleep otherwise!

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/32)
* Origin: Quinn's Rock vBox - sunny-side up on the desktop (3:640/1384)

Do you believe, or want me to believe that a few thousand people
overthrough a popular leader and the rest just went along with
that? No.

If a crowd has weapons and when the President doesn't want to suppress
them down with force. It is possible. And Yanukovich has proved it. And
Pitin and Lukashenko has learnt a lot.

Putin has not learned even after his wars in Afghanistan and Syria (among others). He does not want to learn and is incapable of learning. He is a dictator.

I have to ask again. Do you believe, or want me to believe that a few thousand people overthrough a popular leader and the people of Ukraine just along with that? No.

The people of Ukraine want to go in the direction of their choosing. They choose to go in the direction of the EU and NATO. The reasons for this are crytal clear today and I hope their choice will be realized.

Well, imagine what would happen if the storming of the Capitol would not
be suppressed. As it was in Kiev in 2014 where the parliamentarian would
go to their work through the crowd, insults and threats.

The events of 2014 and 2020 are not the same. Not even the same continent.

It had been proved

Really!? Now you are talking silly.

that this woman was brought there after the shelling.

The woman has since had her baby and is safe and sound. As safe as a person can be when under attack from bombs and missiles of a rogue state like the Russian Federation.

A propaganda in short.

Propagana is a real thing I know. This is a real life story, a true story and there are many more.

The people of Russia now live in a constant state of propaganda. The government has outlawed the truth in Russia. This is not new but it has ramped up. Media outlets have closed up (or moved) shop rather than risk a 15 year jail term for using words like "war" or "invasion" even when appropriate.

What the people get in Russia today is fake news with headlines and stories provided by the state.

And I say the you the following -- Russian media channels were shut up
and you relay only on the Ukrainian side of information.

I think it is you that should/will speak of the Russian side?

If there is info I can get to you, I will try.

In this situation your truth is hardly worth of a used condom.

I hope you can find an unused condom, should the need arise. I can't help you with that.

It is complete wrong to shut up information from one side, even if you don't agree with it.

I will not shut up anything from any side.

I am a strong supporter of free speech. People should decide themselves.

I am also and yes people can and will decide for themselves. They will make better fact based decisions if they have good facts to base their conclusions.

If people are making decisions that are not based on honest facts/truths then I like to keep a comfortable distance.

Propaganda can say anything on both sides.

Propaganda is not good for anything/anyone.

Reaction? After the UN has accepted 14 thousand killed in Ukrainian Donbass siege nobody has said nothing about it.

The situation in the Donbass is settled. We know what is happening there. The actions of Russian backed separatists has destablized the region.

Factoid: There are now in excess of 2,500,000 refugees caused by the Russian Federations war against Ukraine as the onslought continues against civilians on the ground. A large part of that number is now in Poland and countries west of Ukraine.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-5
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hello alexander!

13 Mar 22 14:35, alexander koryagin wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:

Both sides are lying, that why it is wrong to shut up one side only.

Meanwhile there is an obvious difference in the quality and quantity of lies in orders of magnitude. Mr. Putin is the most embarrassing leader of a country and the most pathetic public liar I've seen in a very long time.

And
how can you appreciate the fakes from the Russian media if they shut
up?

Neither did I appreciate their fakes nor did I ask them to shut up (although it would be really helpful if they did come back to something like journalism instead of propagangda - but that's a long way now). What are you talking about?


Regards,
Gerrit

... 3:26PM up 67 days, 2:21, 5 users, load averages: 1.30, 0.62, 0.50

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: And still they come and go (2:240/12)

Hello Gerrit Kuehn!

** On Sunday 13.03.22 - 15:26, Gerrit Kuehn wrote to alexander koryagin:

Meanwhile there is an obvious difference in the quality
and quantity of lies in orders of magnitude. Mr. Putin is
the most embarrassing leader of a country and the most
pathetic public liar I've seen in a very long time.

Watching Russia's Foreign Minster, Lavrov, in front of cameras
saying "we are not attacking anyone.." is like watching a sad
puppy.

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.51
* Origin: --> . <-- Oh look.. A point! (2:221/1.58)

Hello Alan,

I am a strong supporter of free speech. People should decide

themselves.

I am also and yes people can and will decide for themselves. They will
make better fact based decisions if they have good facts to base their conclusions.

I would like to introduce to you my laws #15 and #17 on electronic communications ... maybe they need to be in a different set of laws, but here they are anyway ... both were inspired by mr.Putin already years ago...

#15
"A politician does not need to be honest, but effective"

#17
"Lying is an ultimate form of free speech"

And please, keep your acid-pot boiling...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

August,

Watching Russia's Foreign Minster, Lavrov, in front of cameras
saying "we are not attacking anyone.." is like watching a sad
puppy.

Actually ... maybe the propaganda has gotten to him too ... and he really believes it ...

Because if he consciously is lying, he is unfit for the foreign ministry. Nobody will want to deal with him, except people from other rogue states.

And if you need a reason why China is not really speaking out against Russia ... they themselves have plans to invade Taiwan, just like they did in Tibet and the world sat on its collective asses and did nothing ...

\%/@rd

--- DB4 - 20220222
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello August!

13 Mar 22 12:10, August Abolins wrote to Gerrit Kuehn:

Watching Russia's Foreign Minster, Lavrov, in front of cameras
saying "we are not attacking anyone.." is like watching a sad
puppy.

Actually, this is quite reminiscent of Walter Ulbrich (former leader of the GDR). When being asked about the borders of a "free city" Berlin in June 1961, he answered that "no-one intends to build a wall". Guess what happened two months later...


Regards,
Gerrit

... 5:38PM up 67 days, 4:33, 5 users, load averages: 0.77, 0.57, 0.54

--- msged/fbsd 6.3 2021-12-02
* Origin: Tall orders to fulfil (2:240/12)

IIRC, there were 28 Australians on board as well others from various nationalities.

You are right, if you include your neighbours.

People on board by nationality: 

Nation Number

Netherlands 193
Malaysia 43
Australia 27
Indonesia 12
United Kingdom 10
Belgium 4
Germany 4
Philippines 3
Canada 1
New Zealand 1
Total 298



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

When Ukrainian side has shelled Donetsk
nobody can guarantee that the shells will not drop on the civilians.

When Russia has shelled civilian targets in Ukraine, it can be guaranteed that the shells will kill Russians living there, as well as their Ukrainian friends living nearby.

That's the problem with systematically target civilians, and why the civilized world will never tolerate war crimes like what Mad Vlad and his ilk are committing. Rest assured, there will be dire consequences...

BTW, what's the kill score so far?

Children living in Ukraine: 280
Children living in Russia: 0

Correct me if I'm wrong.



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hi! Björn,

On 03/14/2022 05:32 AM, you wrote:

IIRC, there were 28 Australians on board as well others from
various nationalities.

You are right, if you include your neighbours.

Thank you! Yes, but it was a hunch though. Since I have been 'all over the story' it seems some facts kinda stuck. ;)

Cheers,
Paul.

--- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
* Origin: Vuja De - The feeling you've never been here before. (3:640/1384.125)

I would like to introduce to you my laws #15 and #17 on electronic communications ... maybe they need to be in a different set of laws, but here they are anyway ... both were inspired by mr.Putin already years ago...

#15
"A politician does not need to be honest, but effective"

To what effect?

#17
"Lying is an ultimate form of free speech"

Free speech means you can lie but lies not ultimate speech.

And please, keep your acid-pot boiling...

I have no acid, I only speak the truth.

If I were to mention that there was an agreement between the Russian Federation and Ukraine when Ukraine gave up it's nuclear weapons that the Russian Federation would never attack them that might seem acidic to one side.

How can we believe anything that Putin (or Russia) has to say?

In spite of that I am only speaking the unacidic truth.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-5
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Free speech means you can lie but lies not ultimate speech.

Just remember, if we don't have free speech there's no way to spot the idiots...



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Alexander,

I've took your answer as "I don't know about victims, but
they say on our TV that the maternity hospital was attacked
inhumanly".;)

Yeah, sure, given you want to go on blindfolded by Russian
propaganda. OTOH, you may take it as "They did proper fact
checks and along the way even discovered how Russian media produced
fake news from it.".

Both sides are lying, that why it is wrong to shut up one side only. And how
can you appreciate the fakes from the Russian media if they shut up?

It is quite easy to do. I'll let The Doctor explain, as he did so
well and eloquently with the Time Lord in charge on Gallifrey -

"Can you hear them? All these people who lived in terror of you and
your judgement. All these people who's ancestors devoted and sacrificed themselves to you. Can you hear them singing? Oh, you like to think
you're a god, but you're not a god. You're just a parasite eating out
the jealousy and envy and longing for the lives of others. You feed on
them. On the memory of love and lost and birth and death and joy and
sorrow. So, so come on then. Take mine. Take my memories. And I hope
you've got a big appetite because I have lived a long life and I have
seen a few things. I walked away from the last Great Time War. I marked
the passing of the Time Lords. I saw the birth of the universe and
watched as time ran out. Moment by moment until nothing remained --
no time, no space, just me. I walked in universes where the laws of
physics where devised by the mind of a mad man. I watched universes
freeze and creations burn. I have seen things you wouldn't believe.
I have lost things you will never understand. And I know things.
Secrets that must never be told. Knowledge that must never be spoken.
Knowledge that will make parasite gods blaze. So come on then! Take it!
Take it all, baby! Have it! You have it all!"
~ Doctor Who

Rather than follow orders, the Doctor chose to become a deserter.
Even though the Daleks were seeking to eliminate his entire race.

Whose truth do you want to believe? The Protector, or the Deserter?

--Lee

--
It Ain't Payday If It Ain't Nuts In Your Mouth

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hello Alexander,

I've took your answer as "I don't know about victims, but
they say on our TV that the maternity hospital was attacked
inhumanly".;)

Yeah, sure, given you want to go on blindfolded by Russian
propaganda. OTOH, you may take it as "They did proper fact
checks and along the way even discovered how Russian media produced
fake news from it.".

Both sides are lying, that why it is wrong to shut up one side only. And how can you appreciate the fakes from the Russian media if they shut up?

Propaganda has limitations. That is why people choose to read/watch
other sources than what is told to them by Big Brother.

--Lee

--
We! Reject! The president-nonelect!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se:4119 (2:203/2)

Hi, Dmitry Protasoff!
I read your message from 13.03.2022 00:15

DP>>> Arkadiy Gaydar was an alcoholic, because he killed a lot of
DP>>> Russians during our civil war.

ak>> I don't know how these two things can be connected, but surely you
ak>> are too serious about my joke about Nuland's motives.

DP> My colleagues are under shelling in Ukraine, I am too serious.

Believe me or not but a friend of mine lives in Donetsk suburb.

DP> Gayday was drinking because he saw dead people in his dreams,
DP> people he killed in civil war. That's why he was drinking a lot.

When people drink a lot they see even green devils. ;-)

DP>>> Gaydar was part of propadanda during Stalin's repsessions agains
DP>>> Russian people. He was drinking a lot and spent some time in
DP>>> mental hospital because he was a child soldier.

ak>> IMHO, judging by the appearance and actions of his grandson, the
ak>> chief of economic reforms in Russia of 90s Egor Gaydar, there were
ak>> some genetic defects in their family.

DP> You sounds exactly like some Nazi, with "genetic defects" slogan.
DP> USSR collapse was a disaster and your are blaming Gaydar and not
DP> Stalin and Lenin, who created our state which was based on
DP> corruption and crazy ideas.

I don't like Erog Gaydar because people for him were like cattle. For
this reason he invented his famous economic chocking therapy. In China
reforms were slow and checked, and they gained success. In Russia the
reforms were tantamount to a catastrophe for all industry and most
people, well, except Muscovites. ;)

DP>>> Fake, Russia sent groups of fighters to DNR/LNR and invaded
DP>>> Crimea. Kharkiv never had any uprisings and now fighting with
DP>>> Russians forces, in fact it doing better in comparison with Nazi
DP>>> invasion in 1941.

ak>> Knarkiv had avoided that havoc due to the wise and independent
ak>> policy of its mayor, Kernes, AFAIR, who didn't allowed
ak>> nationalists to do everything the wanted. It was an exception
ak>> however.

DP> And now Kharkiv is paying a price. Beeing destroyed by Russians who
DP> are "protecting Russians".

I wish I could know whom the people of Kharkov are now afraid more --
their protectors or their defenders. ;-)

Bye, Dmitry!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Alan Ianson!
I read your message from 13.03.2022 16:02

AI>>> Do you believe, or want me to believe that a few thousand people
AI>>> overthrough a popular leader and the rest just went along with
AI>>> that? No.

ak>> If a crowd has weapons and when the President doesn't want to
ak>> suppress them down with force. It is possible. And Yanukovich has
ak>> proved it. And Pitin and Lukashenko has learnt a lot.

AI> Putin has not learned even after his wars in Afghanistan and Syria
AI> (among others). He does not want to learn and is incapable of
AI> learning. He is a dictator.

At least I can say for sure that occupation of Ukraine has never been in
his plans. IMHO he declared his wishes about Ukraine clearly -- Ukraine
should stop war against Donbass (which is still be shelling every day),
and become a neutral country.

AI> I have to ask again. Do you believe, or want me to believe that a
AI> few thousand people overthrough a popular leader and the people of
AI> Ukraine just along with that? No.

I say you again -- it is possible. Bolsheviks in Russia made a very
limited size cope, but had captured the whole country. The people of the former USSSR as a rule admit all orders that come from the capital. Most country officials submit to new power under the threat of physical
reprisal.

AI> The people of Ukraine want to go in the direction of their
AI> choosing. They choose to go in the direction of the EU and NATO.
AI> The reasons for this are crytal clear today and I hope their choice
AI> will be realized.

If it were as in your head there would not war in Ukraine.

ak>> Well, imagine what would happen if the storming of the Capitol
ak>> would not be suppressed. As it was in Kiev in 2014 where the
ak>> parliamentarian would go to their work through the crowd, insults
ak>> and threats.

AI> The events of 2014 and 2020 are not the same. Not even the same
AI> continent.

ak>> It had been proved
AI> Really!? Now you are talking silly.

ak>> that this woman was brought there after the shelling.

Photos were done in completely other medical center and this girl
participated before in many other provocative photos also. This story
looks like an imitation of chemical attack in Syria when it was
bombarded afterwards. I suggest also to investigate the crashing of an attacking drone in Croatia launched from Ukraine. It is very possible
they hoped for many victims.

AI> The woman has since had her baby and is safe and sound. As safe as
AI> a person can be when under attack from bombs and missiles of a
AI> rogue state like the Russian Federation.
ak>> A propaganda in short.
AI> Propagana is a real thing I know. This is a real life story, a true
AI> story and there are many more.

I say it once again -- it is foolishess and shame to listen only one
side of the conflict. Don't forget, that the main slogan of Russia's
invasion is justice and stopping the war in Donbass. Russia is not going
to repeat infamous American invasion in Veitnam with carpet bombing,
where Americans killed millions of people and ran with it.

AI> The people of Russia now live in a constant state of propaganda.
AI> The government has outlawed the truth in Russia. This is not new
AI> but it has ramped up. Media outlets have closed up (or moved) shop
AI> rather than risk a 15 year jail term for using words like "war"
AI> or "invasion" even when appropriate.

For instance Euronews TV is on air in Russia. As for prohibition -- yes
the state propaganda does it business. But as well as Ukrainian
propaganda prohibits any positive news about Russian side. In the world
of adults it is called "information war".

AI> What the people get in Russia today is fake news with headlines and
AI> stories provided by the state.

I repeat -- the Russian stance is not a complete lie. And Ukrainian nationalists are not sinless angels. That why Putin propaganda works
well. Well, how to explain it -- suppose he speaks good and correct
words about WW2 and under this disguise he says wrong things.

<skipped>
ak>> It is complete wrong to shut up information from one side, even if
ak>> you don't agree with it.

AI> I will not shut up anything from any side.

Yes, nobody asked you when they shut up Russian media.

<skipped>
ak>> Reaction? After the UN has accepted 14 thousand killed in
ak>> Ukrainian Donbass siege nobody has said nothing about it.

AI> The situation in the Donbass is settled. We know what is happening
AI> there. The actions of Russian backed separatists has destablized
AI> the region.

It was Ukrainian ultra-nationalists who had destabilized Ukraine in
2014. Everything would have been peaceful and fine if that idiots would
not come to power with their nationalistic violence.

AI> Factoid: There are now in excess of 2,500,000 refugees caused by
AI> the Russian Federations war against Ukraine as the onslought
AI> continues against civilians on the ground. A large part of that
AI> number is now in Poland and countries west of Ukraine.

After 2014 Russia accepted more 2 million Ukrainian refugies mostly from Donbass.
https://tinyurl.com/yam46fsy (Google translation)
-----Beginning of the citation-----
Internally displaced persons in Ukraine (since 2014) are internally
displaced persons in the country who migrated from the territory of the
ATO zone (armed conflict in eastern Ukraine), they also include migrants
from Crimea, which was annexed to the Russian Federation in
February-March 2014.

According to the statement of the official representative of the Russian Foreign Ministry Maria Zakharova, the total number of Ukrainian citizens
in Russia as of March 16, 2017 is 2 million 300 thousand 320 people, of
which more than a million are refugees from Donbass[1].

On June 15, 2016, Deputy Minister for the Occupied Territories and
Internally Displaced Persons Georgiy Tuka stated that the real number of
IDPs from Donbass is about 800,000, according to an independent study conducted by international organizations[2]. At the same time, according
to the Ministry of Social Policy, the number of registered migrants is
more than 1.7 million people (as of February 1, 2016). Of this number,
more than 714 thousand families applied for state financial assistance,
which was assigned to more than 669 thousand families[2][3].
----- The end of the citation -----

Bye, Alan!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Bj?rn Felten!
I read your message from 13.03.2022 22:42

BF> BTW, what's the kill score so far?
BF> Children living in Ukraine: 280
BF> Children living in Russia: 0

Well how many children were in those 14 thousand killed in Donbass by Ukrainian troops? Thousands probably. What is going on is just a logical continuation of the war started in 2014. The main blame should be put on
those who didn't want to make peace for these 8 years. They probably
hoped to cut the rebels throats and get bingo.

What has changed? Well, for 8 years has suffered those who lived in
Donbass. Now many Ukrainians themselves feel the same horror. Probably
it makes to understand what horror they did in Donbass.

PS: And I repeat again and again, I consider Putin's operation as crazy
and unclever. But I just say to you again -- try not dissolve the reason
of the conflict in Ukraine in the person of Putin.

Bye, Bj?rn!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews,local.cc.ak 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, August Abolins!
I read your message from 13.03.2022 19:10

GK>> Meanwhile there is an obvious difference in the quality
GK>> and quantity of lies in orders of magnitude. Mr. Putin is
GK>> the most embarrassing leader of a country and the most
GK>> pathetic public liar I've seen in a very long time.
AA> Watching Russia's Foreign Minster, Lavrov, in front of cameras
AA> saying "we are not attacking anyone.." is like watching a sad
AA> puppy.

IMHO everybody in Russia, I believe Lavrov including, were sure that
the building up Russian army near Ukrainian border was just play of
muscles to prevent Ukraine from solving Donbass war forcefully. It was
true and obvious that Ukraine concentrated big forces in the Donetsk
region this winter. A big part of escalation is also lies on the
Ukrainian side.

Nobody can answer why Putin had decided that the military strike would
be the best solution. Probably after successful suppressing the riot in Kazakhstan he started to felt himself a big strategist. And there was no
one next to say him clever words. ;-\

Bye, August!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Hi, Ward Dossche!
I read your message from 13.03.2022 19:36

WD> Actually ... maybe the propaganda has gotten to him too ... and
WD> he really believes it ... Because if he consciously is lying,
WD> he is unfit for the foreign ministry. Nobody will want to deal
WD> with him, except people from other rogue states. And if you
WD> need a reason why China is not really speaking out against Russia ...
WD> they themselves have plans to invade Taiwan, just like they did in
WD> Tibet and the world sat on its collective asses and did nothing
WD> ...

Taiwan Chinese are not such idiots as Ukrainian nationalists. Its enough
to not provoke the beast and everything will be OK.

Bye, Ward!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.fidonews 2022
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
* Origin: Usenet Network (2:5075/128.130)

Putin has not learned even after his wars in Afghanistan and Syria
(among others). He does not want to learn and is incapable of
learning. He is a dictator.

At least I can say for sure that occupation of Ukraine has never been in
his plans.

No, it is simply a military invasion. He has attacked the whole country. He is not protecting anyone. Not in the Donbass region or anywhere else. He has invaded a peaceful and sovereign nation.

IMHO he declared his wishes about Ukraine clearly -- Ukraine
should stop war against Donbass (which is still be shelling every day),
and become a neutral country.

I have already expressed to you that the problem in the Donbass region is separatists. Russian backed (armed) separatists. The issue is not ultra nationalists. Well maybe it is, Russian ultra nationalists in Ukraine.

Yes, there is daily shelling in the Donbass region and everywhere in Ukraine today by the Russian military. Russian bombing/shelling is killing many in Ukraine, Russian and Ukrainian speakers alike.

Whatever the issues and solutions are in the Donbass region it is a Ukrainian problem. The Russian Federation need not amass ~200,000 troops on the Ukraine border and invade that peaceful sovereign nation with it's military.

I can only hope that makes sense to you.

I say you again -- it is possible.

It is not possible and it did not happen in this case regardless of Putin's wish list.

The people of the former USSSR as a rule admit all orders that come from the capital.

That is the case. For better or for worse.

Most country officials submit to new power under the threat of physical reprisal.

The Russian military did not come to Ukraine for a friendly visit. They went there to bark orders and expected the population to comply and offer flowers.

Of course that didn't happen. Did you or the leaders of your country really expect it would happen? Of course not.

Photos were done in completely other medical center and this girl participated before in many other provocative photos also.

Really!? You are going to have to come up with something better than "participated before in many other provocative photos also" if you want me to believe anything you have to say.

I say it once again -- it is foolishess and shame to listen only one
side of the conflict.

I am not listening to one side only. I am listening to you and you want to tell me that "a few thousand people overthrough a popular leader" and "this girl...".

Don't forget, that the main slogan of Russia's invasion is justice and stopping the war in Donbass.

There is no justice in this war, none.

Russia is not going to repeat infamous American invasion in Veitnam with carpet bombing, where Americans killed millions of people and ran with it.

I guess you have lost the argument at this point so you want to bring up Vietnam.

The people of Russia now live in a constant state of propaganda.
The government has outlawed the truth in Russia. This is not new
but it has ramped up. Media outlets have closed up (or moved) shop
rather than risk a 15 year jail term for using words like "war"
or "invasion" even when appropriate.

For instance Euronews TV is on air in Russia. As for prohibition -- yes
the state propaganda does it business. But as well as Ukrainian
propaganda prohibits any positive news about Russian side.

I have not even heard of Euronews. From what I can tell at a glance it is a british site with a Russian speaking arm out of France. It is not Russian by a long shot.

In the world of adults it is called "information war".

No, what is happening inside Russia today has no resemblance to information. Lack of information perhaps.

What the people get in Russia today is fake news with headlines and
stories provided by the state.

This is what you have in Russia today.

I repeat -- the Russian stance is not a complete lie. And Ukrainian nationalists are not sinless angels.

Nationalism can be problematical. I will give you that.

That why Putin propaganda works well.

It does? Define works well.

It was Ukrainian ultra-nationalists who had destabilized Ukraine in
2014. Everything would have been peaceful and fine if that idiots would
not come to power with their nationalistic violence.

You sure want to get your milage out of ultra-nationalists and Donbass.

https://tinyurl.com/yam46fsy (Google translation)

This is not a translation, it is a russian wikipedia site.

Wikipedia can be very good, and it can be very bad.

I don't see any refugee's heading to Russia. By and large they are leaving through Poland and onwards. Very few if any are heading toward Russia.

I just read an article in the washigton post from 2019 that 20% of the population in Russia want to leave with Germany and the USA being the places to go. I wonder what the situation is in 2022?

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* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)