On 12-26-20, AARON THOMAS said to LEE LOFASO:

Joe Biden kicked Donald Trump's orange butt. And now, instead
of doing his job, your orange clown is handing out pardons like
Christmas presents. What a sick puppy.

All the presidents do this when they're near the end of their term. And AT>yea, it is like a Christmas present. What's sick about it?

Donald Trump has granted 28 pardons and 16 commutations.


Hussein Obama had given pardons, commutations, remissions of fines or restitutions, and reprieves, to almost 2000 people who were convicted of federal crimes.


The 28 pardons and 16 commutations Trump has issued is the lowest number
of such by any president since William McKinley.



Tagline #1;



"Fact checkers didn't exist until the truth started getting out."


Taglikne #2;



"If Trump is so evil like the media is always telling us, why aren't his followers the ones looting stores, killing cops, destroying property, and assaulting innocent bystanders?"



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Hussein Obama had given pardons, commutations, remissions of fines or restitutions, and reprieves, to almost 2000 people who were convicted of federal crimes.

Lee's problem with it is that a few of Trump's turkeys were people who he was associated with.

Maybe Obama didn't pardon anyone he was associated with, but how would anyone prove that or prove otherwise?

Presidents shouldn't pardon anybody. It makes the prosecutors look bad.

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Re: Re: High Risk Inmates Vac
By: Aaron Thomas to Tim Richardson on Sat Jan 02 2021 12:07 pm

Presidents shouldn't pardon anybody. It makes the prosecutors look bad.

It makes the person who pardons badly look bad.

It's too bad that men like Donald Trump get pardon power.

Ttyl :-),
Al

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Hello Aaron,

Hussein Obama had given pardons, commutations, remissions of fines TR>or

restitutions, and reprieves, to almost 2000 people who were TR>convicted of
federal crimes.

Lee's problem with it is that a few of Trump's turkeys were people who he was associated with.

President Number of Pardons
--------- -----------------
FDR 2819
Truman 1913
Eisenhower 1110
JFK 492
Clinton 396
Reagan 393
Ford 382
Obama 212
GWB 189
GHWB 74
Trump ?

Trump pardon of those who committed acts of genocide speaks volumes
about who and what he is and always has been -

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2020-12-30/trump-pardon-of -blackwater-iraq-contractors-violates-international-law-un

Maybe Obama didn't pardon anyone he was associated with, but how would anyone prove that or prove otherwise?

It is easy to prove Bill Clinton granted his half-brother, Roger,
a pardon. First of all, Clinton admitted it himself.

It will be just as easy to prove Donald Trump granting himself
and his entire family a pardon ...

Presidents shouldn't pardon anybody.

That's what James Mason tried to tell everybody.

It makes the prosecutors look bad.

Just because a president grants somebody a pardon does not mean
he/she has to accept it.

--Lee

--
Black lives matter!

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It makes the person who pardons badly look bad.

It's too bad that men like Donald Trump get pardon power.

Obama used that power way more than Trump or anyone else since FDR. He,
like Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter, used it to pardon domestic terrorists. Clinton also used it to pardon his and Hillary's business partners.

The last time we had this discussion you admitted to not knowing much about
the US Presidential pardon.


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Re: Re: High Risk Inmates Vac
By: Mike Powell to ALAN IANSON on Sun Jan 03 2021 10:33 am

Obama used that power way more than Trump or anyone else since FDR. He, like Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter, used it to pardon domestic terrorists. Clinton also used it to pardon his and Hillary's business partners.

Trump is using pardons on a few guys who didn't talk. Obama never did that.

Trump has also pardoned a number of contractors who committed acts of terrorism in Iraq, again Obama never did that.

The last time we had this discussion you admitted to not knowing much about the US Presidential pardon.

I see. Well I know that Trump is using the pardon power differently than other presidents.

I suspect we'll see more, similar pardons coming from Trump before he is done.

Ttyl :-),
Al

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Obama used that power way more than Trump or anyone else since FDR. He, >MP> like Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter, used it to pardon domestic terrorists. >MP> Clinton also used it to pardon his and Hillary's business partners.

Trump is using pardons on a few guys who didn't talk. Obama never did that.

Trump has also pardoned a number of contractors who committed acts of terrorism
in Iraq, again Obama never did that.

Obama pardoned domestic terrorists, including Oscar Lopez Riviera, who was
in jail for use of force to commit robbery, firearms violations, and
conspiracy to transport explosives with the intent of blowing up federal property. He was a member of the FALN. They carried out over 130 bombing attacks in the United States during the 1970's and early 1980's, and killed
at least 4 people.

Most importantly, Riviera was convicted of seditious conspiracy. In other words, of attempting to overthrow or destroy the government.

He basically pardoned the Puerto Rican equivalent of Timothy MacVeigh.

The last time we had this discussion you admitted to not knowing much about the US Presidential pardon.

I see. Well I know that Trump is using the pardon power differently than other
residents.

No he is not, unless you mean he is not using it to pardon domestic
terrorists.

Obama used it to pardon domestic terrorists. Clinton used it to
pardon his own brother (family), gang members, and several former business partners and donors, including Mark Rich.

I suspect we'll see more, similar pardons coming from Trump before he is done.

I posted some numbers the other day. He'd have to sign pardons until his
arm falls off in order to pardon as many as Clinton or Obama.

Obama pardoned domestic terrorists. Clinton pardoned his own brother
(family), gang members, several former business partners, and political
donors like Mark Rich. Carter used it to pardon domestic terrorists.

Get back with me when Trump uses the power of pardon to pardon someone who
has blown something up in the United States, or that shot up Congress, or
that shot a former President.


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President Number of Pardons
--------- -----------------
FDR 2819
Truman 1913
Eisenhower 1110
JFK 492
Clinton 396
Reagan 393
Ford 382
Obama 212
GWB 189
GHWB 74
Trump ?

At my last check, Trump had pardoned < 100. Obama pardoned a whole lot
more people that 212. It was closer to 2000. Trump will never catch him.

Trump pardon of those who committed acts of genocide speaks volumes
about who and what he is and always has been -

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2020-12-30/trump-pardon-of -blackwater-iraq-contractors-violates-international-law-un

Obama pardoned someone convicted of sedition. Carter pardoned some folks who shot up Congress in the 1950's and, if I am not mistaken, someone who actually attempted to assassinate a sitting President. I guess attempting/intending to kill, or actually killing, Americans on our own soil is somehow a lesser crime since it is not against any UN laws.

Clinton pardoned former business partners and donors.


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Re: Re: High Risk Inmates Vac
By: Mike Powell to ALAN IANSON on Sun Jan 03 2021 06:14 pm

No he is not, unless you mean he is not using it to pardon domestic terrorists.

I mean that he is using it to pardon his close associates and white house aids like Roger Stone, Paul Manafort and Michael Flynn.

Trump commuted the remaining sentence of former republican congressman Steve Stockman who was convicted of misuse of charitable funds in 2018. He directed hundreds of thousands of charitable funds to himself.

He also pardoned 4 former blackwater contractors convicted of a 2007 massacre of unarmed civilians in Baghdad. Blackwater was founded by Trump supporter Erik Prince.

I could go on but I'll leave it at that. None of those pardons are about justice or doing the right thing.

Ttyl :-),
Al

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Hello Mike,

It makes the person who pardons badly look bad.

It's too bad that men like Donald Trump get pardon power.

Obama used that power way more than Trump or anyone else since FDR.

Far from it. With only 212 pardons, he is close to the bottom.

He, like Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter, used it to pardon domestic terrorists. Clinton also used it to pardon his and Hillary's business partners.

No president, except Trump, has issued pardons to those who have
committed acts of genocide. That pardon, in and of itself, is
considered by many as being an international war crime. He has also
issued pardons to those who committed acts of treason, one of whom
had plead guilty not just once, but twice.

The last time we had this discussion you admitted to not knowing much about
the US Presidential pardon.

No other leader of any democratic country has the same executive
power to grant pardons. Oh, tinpot dictators do. But that doesn't
count.

--Lee

--
Coronovirus doesn't effect rats n snakes so most of u are safe.

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Hello Alan,

Obama used that power way more than Trump or anyone else since FDR. He,
like Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter, used it to pardon domestic

terrorists.

Clinton also used it to pardon his and Hillary's business partners.

Trump is using pardons on a few guys who didn't talk. Obama never did that.

Trump pardoned guys who committed acts of treason. Obama never did that.

Trump has also pardoned a number of contractors who committed acts of terrorism in Iraq, again Obama never did that.

That is considered by many to be an international war crime.
Obama never did that. Although al-Qaeda might disagree.

The last time we had this discussion you admitted to not knowing much
about the US Presidential pardon.

I see. Well I know that Trump is using the pardon power differently than other presidents.

He hasn't pardoned himself. Or members of his own family. Yet.

I suspect we'll see more, similar pardons coming from Trump before he is done.

With less than three weeks to go, that is plenty of time. But not
really sure if his sharpie has enough ink to make it through ...

--Lee

--
You're fired, Donald!

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Hello Mike,

President Number of Pardons
--------- -----------------
FDR 2819
Truman 1913
Eisenhower 1110
JFK 492
Clinton 396
Reagan 393
Ford 382
Obama 212
GWB 189
GHWB 74
Trump ?

At my last check, Trump had pardoned < 100.

We do not know yet how many Trump will have pardoned since he has
not finished his term in office. But we will find out soon enough.

Obama pardoned a whole lot more people that 212.

Nope. That is the total number of pardons.

It was closer to 2000.

Commutations do not count.

Trump will never catch him.

He still has almost three weeks to go. With himself and his family,
along with relatives and friends, he might make it.

Trump pardon of those who committed acts of genocide speaks volumes
about who and what he is and always has been -

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2020-12-30/trump-pardon-of
-blackwater-iraq-contractors-violates-international-law-un

Obama pardoned someone convicted of sedition. Carter pardoned some folks who shot up Congress in the 1950's and, if I am not mistaken, someone who actually attempted to assassinate a sitting President. I guess attempting/intending to kill, or actually killing, Americans on our own soil is somehow a lesser crime since it is not against any UN laws.

As long as the president has the power to pardon, some pardons will
always be questioned. But some of the pardons Trump has issued were
truly despicable, such as those cited. There were also others, such
as the Manafort pardon, and Flynn pardon. And Stone pardon. And so
many more.

Clinton pardoned former business partners and donors.

We survived Clinton. I am not so sure we will survive Trump.

--Lee

--
Our Nuts, Your Mouth

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No he is not, unless you mean he is not using it to pardon domestic terrorists.

I could go on but I'll leave it at that. None of those pardons are about justice or doing the right thing.

They were also not about justice or doing the right thing when Clinton
pardoned his close business associates, or when Obama pardoned a domestic terrorist. All Presidents that have come after Bush the Elder have abused
it. President Trump is not doing anything differently than 2 or 3 of his predecessors (other than he has yet to pardon any domestic terrorists).


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Re: Re: High Risk Inmates Vac
By: Mike Powell to ALAN IANSON on Mon Jan 04 2021 02:09 pm

They were also not about justice or doing the right thing when Clinton pardoned his close business associates, or when Obama pardoned a domestic terrorist.

I don't remember Obama pardoning a domestic terrorist. He did commute a 55 year sentence after the man spent 36 years in prison.

Roger Stone and Michael Flynn spent no time in any prison for their crimes.

Do you see the difference?

All Presidents that have come after Bush the Elder have abused
it. President Trump is not doing anything differently than 2 or 3 of his predecessors (other than he has yet to pardon any domestic terrorists).

I see a very big difference in these Trump pardons, and I do hope he will not pardon any terrorists, domestic or otherwise.

Ttyl :-),
Al

... Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they AREN'T after you.
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Obama used that power way more than Trump or anyone else since FDR.

Far from it. With only 212 pardons, he is close to the bottom.

Incorrect. Obama pardoned, commuted, and recinded the convictions of 1927 people. You can play semantics and point out the differences, but that is
1927 people who, excluding any posthumous actions, were released from their sentences by the President.

Trump has done the same with just under 100 people.
Obama - 1927/2 terms
GW Bush - 200/2 terms
Clinton - 459/2 terms
GHW Bush - 77/1 term
Reagan - 406/2 terms
Carter - 566/1 term (excluding ~200K Vietnam draft dodgers, also pardoned)

He, like Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter, used it to pardon domestic terrorists. Clinton also used it to pardon his and Hillary's business partners.

No president, except Trump, has issued pardons to those who have
committed acts of genocide. That pardon, in and of itself, is
considered by many as being an international war crime. He has also
issued pardons to those who committed acts of treason, one of whom
had plead guilty not just once, but twice.

I don't see the difference between that and people who attempted to shoot
the President (Carter, Oscar Collazo, 1950), shot up Congress in an attempt
to assasinate Congresspeople (Carter, 4 persons, 1954), convicted of
seditious conspiracy (treasonous activty) (Clinton, Elizam Escobar, 1980; Obama, Oscar Lopez Rivera, 1981), domestic terrorism (Clinton, 16 FALN
members, 1970/80's; Clinton, Susan Rosenberg, 1984; Obama, Rivera, 1981).

Rivera was so bad that even Clinton didn't pardon him when he pardoned the
rest of the FALN group.

I also see no difference between that and cozying up to a foreign nation, China, that is committing genocide right now. Previous US
administrations, and Canada, have been doing that for years. Canada still
is. Reminds me of the "appeasement" policy that several countries had with Nazi Germany. To my knowledge, none of them were investing $$$ in building Germany's economy like we had been with China.

Heck, Canada even helped their troops train for winter manuevers so that
they could better round up, intern, and kill their own people in NW China.


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Re: Semantics
By: Mike Powell to LEE LOFASO on Mon Jan 04 2021 04:59 pm

Heck, Canada even helped their troops train for winter manuevers so that they could better round up, intern, and kill their own people in NW China.

That is not true. Canada had planned exercises with China in 2019 but those exercises were canceled.

Ttyl :-),
Al

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Hello Mike,

Obama used that power way more than Trump or anyone else since FDR.

Far from it. With only 212 pardons, he is close to the bottom.

Incorrect. Obama pardoned, commuted, and recinded the convictions of 1927 people.

A pardon is a pardon is a pardon. Commutations are not pardons.

Compared to Pardons

Like the pardoning power, the power to commute sentences is in the executive’s discretion; neither the legislative nor judicial branch
can interfere with or override that power.

Although commutation is considered part of the pardoning power, there
are significant differences between commutations and pardons.

Forgiveness vs. reduction.
Pardons forgive the defendant for the crime, while commutation only
reduces the sentence.

Acceptance.
Prisoners must accept pardons, but some states allow commuted sentences
without the prisoner’s consent.

Civil rights.
Unlike pardons, commutations don’t restore the civil rights lost with
the criminal conviction.

Basis.
Prisoners usually earn commutation through good behavior, while
pardons can be issued for a wide variety of reasons, some of which
may be purely political.

[source: nolo.com]

The only exception I could find was a case in 1829 when an individual
refused a presidential pardon and was then convicted and hanged.

Obama had issued 212 pardons - 2 terms in office.
Trump has issued just under 100 pardons - 1 term in office.
That is roughly the same number of pardons per term.

You can play semantics and point out the differences,

That is not semantics, but accuracy in reporting.

but that is 1927 people who, excluding any posthumous actions, were released
from their sentences by the President.

Commutations and clemency are not pardons, despite your objections.

Obama - 212/2 terms
Trump - ~100/1 term

Trump has done the same with just under 100 people.

A pardon is a pardon is a pardon. About the same number
of pardons, per term, by both Obama and Trump.

Obama - 1927/2 terms
GW Bush - 200/2 terms
Clinton - 459/2 terms
GHW Bush - 77/1 term
Reagan - 406/2 terms
Carter - 566/1 term (excluding ~200K Vietnam draft dodgers, also pardoned)

Redefining pardons as inclusive of commutations in misleading and
inaccurate. Along with just plain foolishness, as amnesty for
those who avoided the draft doesn't count as pardons or commutations
of anything.

He, like Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter, used it to pardon domestic
terrorists. Clinton also used it to pardon his and Hillary's business
partners.

No president, except Trump, has issued pardons to those who have
committed acts of genocide. That pardon, in and of itself, is
considered by many as being an international war crime. He has also
issued pardons to those who committed acts of treason, one of whom
had plead guilty not just once, but twice.

I don't see the difference between that and people who attempted to shoot the President (Carter, Oscar Collazo, 1950), shot up Congress in an attempt
to assasinate Congresspeople (Carter, 4 persons, 1954), convicted of seditious conspiracy (treasonous activty) (Clinton, Elizam Escobar, 1980; Obama, Oscar Lopez Rivera, 1981), domestic terrorism (Clinton, 16 FALN members, 1970/80's; Clinton, Susan Rosenberg, 1984; Obama, Rivera, 1981).

The only president who granted a pardon to an individual who had
tried to assassinate him was Harry Truman. Not even Ronald Reagan
had the courage to do that - probably because a jury had found him
not guilty due to reason of insanity.

Rivera was so bad that even Clinton didn't pardon him when he pardoned the rest of the FALN group.

Trump did not have a problem pardoning four Blackwater contractors
who murdered Iraqi civilians in cold blood. Which many consider as
being an international war crime.

I also see no difference between that and cozying up to a foreign nation, China, that is committing genocide right now.

Doing nothing to admonish Vladimir Putin for putting hits on US
soldiers serving in Afghanistan is beyond the pale. Yet Trump looks
at his pal in Russia as being his best friend forever. Why is that?

A president swears/affirms to defend and protect this country
from all foreign and domestic enemies. Trump has not done that,
despite putting his hand on the Holy Bible and saying so.

Previous US administrations, and Canada, have been doing that for years.

Except for the Trump administration. There is a reason why.

Canada still is.

Trudeau is not Trump.

Reminds me of the "appeasement" policy that several countries had with Nazi Germany.

Neville Chamberlain did a great job. Hitler even shook his hand.

To my knowledge, none of them were investing $$$ in building
Germany's economy like we had been with China.

They should have. Perhaps then China would have been able to repel
Japan and Pearl Harbor never would have been bombed.

Heck, Canada even helped their troops train for winter manuevers so that they could better round up, intern, and kill their own people in NW China.

I think that deal fell apart somewhere along the line.

--Lee

--
We! Reject! The president-nonelect!

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I don't remember Obama pardoning a domestic terrorist. He did commute a 55 yea
sentence after the man spent 36 years in prison.

I don't draw any distiction between a "pardon" and "commuting a sentence."
End result is someone who does not serve their full time and, in the case
of Oscar Lopez Rivera, is out free to try their hand at blowing things up again... or teaching his skills to a younger generation of domestic
terrorists.

Roger Stone and Michael Flynn spent no time in any prison for their crimes.

Do you see the difference?

What did they attempt to blow up on US soil? How many counts of sedition
were they charged with?


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Heck, Canada even helped their troops train for winter manuevers so that they could better round up, intern, and kill their own people in NW China

That is not true. Canada had planned exercises with China in 2019 but those exe
cises were canceled.

Correct. Canada is *no longer* doing so. The Army cancelled the most
recent exercises, the 2019 ones, over Trudeau's objections. But that was
not their first "playtime" together.


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On 01-05-21 13:41, Mike Powell <=-
spoke to Alan Ianson about Re: High Risk Inmates Vac <=-

I don't draw any distiction between a "pardon" and "commuting a
sentence." End result is someone who does not serve their full time

That is one result for both. In the case of a pardon, the conviction is erased. In the case of a commutation, the person is still a convicted
criminal (e.g. felon) with all that entails.

Roger Stone and Michael Flynn spent no time in any prison for their crimes. Do you see the difference?

What did they attempt to blow up on US soil? How many counts of
sedition were they charged with?

Sedition is not the only crime. Roger Stone was convicted on seven
counts of felony by a jury. Flynn plead guilty in order not to go to
trial on even more serious felonies.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


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Re: Re: High Risk Inmates Vac
By: Mike Powell to ALAN IANSON on Tue Jan 05 2021 01:41 pm

I don't draw any distiction between a "pardon" and "commuting a sentence."

There is a difference between a pardon and commuting a sentence.

Roger Stone and Michael Flynn spent no time in any prison for their
crimes.

What did they attempt to blow up on US soil? How many counts of sedition were they charged with?

I never said they blew anything up.

Roger Stone was charged in a seven count indictment in connection with Meullers probe. He was charged with one count of obstruction of an official proceeding, five counts of false statements, including lying to congress and one count of witness tampering. He was convicted on all counts and faced up to 50 years in prison if Donald Trump had not commuted his sentence.

Michael Flynn was accused of lying to the FBI and he admitted his guilt before he was pardoned by Donald Trump.

Ttyl :-),
Al

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Re: Semantics
By: Mike Powell to ALAN IANSON on Tue Jan 05 2021 01:42 pm

Correct. Canada is *no longer* doing so.

Canada *never* did so.

Ttyl :-),
Al

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Obama had issued 212 pardons - 2 terms in office.
Trump has issued just under 100 pardons - 1 term in office.
That is roughly the same number of pardons per term.

Are you also excluding Trump's commutations and clemencies? The number I have includes all 3 and is under 100.

I do not draw a distiction. All are things that reduce sentences and can be abused. My numbers are accurate if I am reporting all pardons, commutations, and clemency numbers for every President discussed.

I am comparing all apples to all apples. I suspect you are choosing to
include only certain apples for some, and all for others.


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What did they attempt to blow up on US soil? How many counts of sedition were they charged with?

Sedition is not the only crime. Roger Stone was convicted on seven
counts of felony by a jury. Flynn plead guilty in order not to go to
trial on even more serious felonies.

Felony what? Sedition, specifically seditious conspiracy, is pretty
serious. I am pretty certain that Stone and Flynn were never convited of attempting to overthrow the government or of destroying/attempting to
destroy government property with the object of bringing the government down.

This go around with Al started when he said (paraphrasing) "Trump is
abusing his power of pardon/commutation/clemency like no other President
before him." "Trump pardoned liars" is a statement I cannot refute because
I believe it is likely true. The former, paraphrased statement is not true.

When he starts pardoning/commuting/clemencying domestic terrorists, or approaches 1000 total of all three categories (Obama's 4-year average), then
it just might be true.


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There is a difference between a pardon and commuting a sentence.

I count them all as all are potential oppotunities for abuse. Others only count pardons for some, and all for others.

What did they attempt to blow up on US soil? How many counts of sedition were they charged with?

I never said they blew anything up.

You did say, paraphrasing, that Trump was abusing this power more than any other President, so...

Obama pardoned/commutted/clemencied someone who was convited of
attempting to do so. Specifically of seditious conspiracy, meaning he was working with others to blow things up with the specific intent of bringing
down the US government. He was a member of a group that was responsible
for over 100 explosions on US soil ("domestic terrorism") in the 1970's and early 1980's.

Bill Clinton also pardoned/commutted/clemencied other members of his group, FALN, and a couple of other domestic terrorists/seditious conspirators.

All Stone and Flynn did was lie. So, again, get back with me when
Trump pardons/commutes/clemencies someone who has blown things up on US
soil, or when he approaches 1000 pardons/clemencies/commutations. Then your statement will be correct. Otherwise, it is no less false than whatever
Stone and Flynn said.

In Summary:

"Trump pardoned liars." = TRUE

"Trump is abusing his pardon/commutation/clemency power more than George
H.W. Bush." = PROBABLY TRUE

"Trump is abusing his pardon/commutation/clemency power like no other
President before him." = VERY FALSE


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Re: Re: High Risk Inmates Vac
By: Mike Powell to ALAN IANSON on Wed Jan 06 2021 01:55 pm

All Stone and Flynn did was lie.

Stone and Flynn are not your ballpark liars.

"Trump is abusing his pardon/commutation/clemency power like no other President before him." = VERY FALSE

You call it false. I call it truth.

Ttyl :-),
Al

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On 01-06-21 13:50, Mike Powell <=-
spoke to Dale Shipp about Pardons <=-

What did they attempt to blow up on US soil? How many counts of sedition were they charged with?

Sedition is not the only crime. Roger Stone was convicted on seven
counts of felony by a jury. Flynn plead guilty in order not to go to
trial on even more serious felonies.

Felony what? Sedition, specifically seditious conspiracy, is pretty serious. I am pretty certain that Stone and Flynn were never convited
of attempting to overthrow the government or of destroying/attempting
to destroy government property with the object of bringing the
government down.

No one said they had committed sedition. You asked how many counts of
sedition were they charged with. I replied that sedition is not the only possible crime -- but they were guilty of other felony crimes.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


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"Trump is abusing his pardon/commutation/clemency power like no other President before him." = VERY FALSE

You call it false. I call it truth.

Which, when evidence to the contrary is presented, makes you wrong.


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On 01-05-21, ALAN IANSON said to MIKE POWELL:

his sentence. Michael Flynn was accused of lying to the FBI and he AI>admitted his guilt before he was pardoned by Donald Trump.

You are conviently ignoring the threat they hung over Flynn to prosecute his son to coerce a guilty plea from him.


Typical democrat ploy.



Tagline;


"Biden ballots keep showing up like pallets of bricks at a democrat riot!"


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Re: Re: High Risk Inmates Vac
By: TIM RICHARDSON to ALAN IANSON on Fri Jan 08 2021 09:56 pm

his sentence. Michael Flynn was accused of lying to the FBI and he
admitted his guilt before he was pardoned by Donald Trump.

You are conviently ignoring the threat they hung over Flynn to prosecute his son to coerce a guilty plea from him.

I'm not ignoring that fact, it is not germane to this discussion.

Michael Flynn was charged for his crimes, not his sons.

Ttyl :-),
Al

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Hello Mike,

Obama had issued 212 pardons - 2 terms in office.
Trump has issued just under 100 pardons - 1 term in office.
That is roughly the same number of pardons per term.

Are you also excluding Trump's commutations and clemencies? The number I
have includes all 3 and is under 100.

Pardons are pardons. The numbers are what they are.

Communtations are communtations. The numbers are what they are.

You cannot compare apples and oranges as being the same.
They are not. Even though they fall under the same category.

I do not draw a distiction.

Everybody else does, including the doj.
Time for Mike Powell to get with the program.

All are things that reduce sentences and can be abused.

That may be, but does not change the facts.

My numbers are accurate if I am reporting all pardons, commutations,
and clemency numbers for every President discussed.

Pardons are pardons. One cannot count anything else as pardons.

I am comparing all apples to all apples.

Not all apples are the same. Some are sweet, some are sour.

I suspect you are choosing to include only certain apples for some, and all
for others.

I am calling a spade a spade.

--Lee

--
Pork. The One You Love.

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Hello Mike,

Obama had issued 212 pardons - 2 terms in office.
Trump has issued just under 100 pardons - 1 term in office.
That is roughly the same number of pardons per term.

Are you also excluding Trump's commutations and clemencies? The number I have includes all 3 and is under 100.

143 pardons/commutations/clemencies in one day! That has got to be
a record! It is! Topped Bill Clinton, who did 140 on his last day in
office (pardons & commutations). Amazing! Trump topped Clinton!

Total number of pardons exceeding what Obama did in two whole
terms (212). Let's put Trump's total number at 238. Of course,
Barack Obama still has the overall record of 1,715 pardons +
commutations. But that's different.

I do not draw a distiction.

Pardons are pardons. As if the crime had never been committed.
Commutations are not pardons, the individual still having been
convicted, although the sentence shortened or done away with.
Clemencies are acts of mercy, not pardons or commutations.
Amnesty is an act granting a pardon to a group of individuals.

All are things that reduce sentences and can be abused.

Of course. And our system of justice is not perfect. There are
good reasons as to why a president should have that power. Should
it be an absolute power, as it is now? That remains an open question.

My numbers are accurate if I am reporting all pardons, commutations,
and clemency numbers for every President discussed.

Your numbers are far from accurate. Your definition is flawed
to begin with, as noted. But Trump did something no other president
has ever done. Not even his hero, Richard Nixon.

"Even Nixon didn't pardon his cronies on the way out. Amazingly,
in his final 24 hours in office, Donald Trump found one more way
to fail to live up to the ethical standard of Richard Nixon."
~ Noah Bookbinder

Worst president ever.

Here is a partial list of some of the people Trump pardoned
last night -

* Rapper Lil Wayne
* Detroit mayor Kwame Kilpatrick
* Stephen K. Bannon
* Newt Gingrich
* Kellyanne Conway
* Sen. Lindsey Graham
* Sen. Tommy Tubberville
* GOP megadonor Elliott Broidy

Julian Assange did *not* get a pardon. Edward Snowden did *not* get
a pardon. Trump's children did *not* get a pardon. Trump's son-in-law
did *not* get a pardon, although his daughter's father-in-law did.
Trump's personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, did *not* get a pardon.

Talk about loyalty. Trump-style.

Donald Trump did *not* pardon himself. And then realized he could
not trust his own vice president to pardon him, due to the events on
January 6. No pulling a Nixon on us due to his own incompetence.

I am comparing all apples to all apples.

You know nothing about apples. Your grandmother, maybe.
But only if she was a Granny Smith.

I suspect you are choosing to include only certain apples for some, and all
for others.

You can only make apple pies from some, apple sauce from others.
And apple butter never from the same kind of apples one would use
for apple pies or apple sauce.

I wonder what kind of apple fell on Newton's head?

--Lee

--
Melts in your mouth, not in your hands

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Total number of pardons exceeding what Obama did in two whole
terms (212). Let's put Trump's total number at 238. Of course,
Barack Obama still has the overall record of 1,715 pardons +
commutations. But that's different.

Except you are lumping all of Trump's pardons, commutations, etc., in one bucket, while only counting Obama's pardons. Just like I said you were and just like I knew you would continue to.

If you count all of Obama's pardons, commutations, and clemencies like you
are Trump's, the number is 1927. If you divide that in half (for a 4 year average), the number is 963.5.

Maybe they don't teach you good math down on the Bayou or in Sweden or
wherever you are from, but 237 (Trump's actual total OF ALL THREE CATEGORIES) is much less than 963.5. 963.5 is just over 4 times more than 237. That
means that Obama averaged as many *per year* of his presidency as Trump had total in four years.

If you have difficulty understanding the math, maybe find someone who isn't from your area who can explain it to you.

By the way, Obama's number is not the record, whether at 1715 or 1927.
Your Swed... er, Bayou sources are apparently not so hot.


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Hello Mike,

Total number of pardons exceeding what Obama did in two whole
terms (212). Let's put Trump's total number at 238. Of course,
Barack Obama still has the overall record of 1,715 pardons +
commutations. But that's different.

Except you are lumping all of Trump's pardons, commutations, etc., in one bucket, while only counting Obama's pardons. Just like I said you were and
just like I knew you would continue to.

Barack Obama (two terms)

Pardons 212
Commutations 1,715

Donald J. Trump (one term)

Pardons 213
Commutations 167

https://www.justice.gov/pardon/clemency-statistics

If you count all of Obama's pardons, commutations, and clemencies like you are Trump's, the number is 1927. If you divide that in half (for a 4 year average), the number is 963.5.

Your numbers are cracked, by the DOJ's own count.

note - Add the 70 pardons and 73 commutations Donald J. Trump issued
on his last day in office and the numbers match up perfectly.

--Lee

--
In solidarity - RIP George Floyd - Black Lives Matter

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note - Add the 70 pardons and 73 commutations Donald J. Trump issued
on his last day in office and the numbers match up perfectly.

1927. No where near it.


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Hello Mike,

note - Add the 70 pardons and 73 commutations Donald J. Trump issued
on his last day in office and the numbers match up perfectly.

1927. No where near it.

Donald J. Trump (one term) 213 pardons granted
Barack Obama (two terms) 212 pardons granted

Ain't life a bitch?

But hey.

You wanna compare pardons and commutations.

So let's do it.

143 - # of pardons & commutations on Trump's last day in office.
140 - # of pardons & communtations on Clinton's last day in office.

Donald J. Trump holds the record.

Life is a *real* bitch.

--Lee

--
They say `Yes, Trump'! / We say `No, Trump!'

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