• Re: No Plan Like Jeff's

    From MIKE POWELL@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Saturday, February 20, 2021 08:25:00
    On 19 Feb 2021, Mike Powell said the following...
    More so than the CCP does. The Paris Accord did little but set us up to pay while others were allowed to pollute. Basically, to make people like
    yourself feel good, like there was something being done.

    Pay who for what?

    We clean up while China sits on their hands and gets paid for the jobs we
    have to move offshore in order to make our clean up quotas.


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  • From MIKE POWELL@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Saturday, February 20, 2021 08:17:00
    Of course not, "Weather Alert" said that. Since you're replying as if I'd said that you did say that, then I'm going to assume that you are "Weather Alert."

    Weather alert is a bot ID that is normally only used to post in weather
    echos. I accidentally ran that script to post my own REP packet. Ooops.

    Did you not imply that more freezing rain and more thaw-and-freeze
    cycles are why the Texas wind turbines failed when the turbines in Canada and northern Europe don't?

    More likely to get freezing rain, maybe. What I implied was that wind
    turbines won't work HERE (which isn't Texas) because we get more freezing
    rain and more thaw-and-freeze. They also wouldn't work here because,
    although there are plenty of days we get a lot of wind, there are many in
    the dead of Summer where the wind doesn't blow at all.

    YOU have implied that things like wind turbines can be primary replacements
    for other power sources. In this part of the country, they cannot.
    Apparently in your part, they cannot, either. Also, based on input from someone from CANADA, they are not using them as primary sources there,
    either.

    Why don't you move somewhere where they are a primary source, and then tell
    us how great things are? Oh, wait, telling us would require a reliable
    source of power... guess you could tell us during the hours of the day
    where you actually have power, if you aren't desperate for AC or heat at
    the same time.


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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to MIKE POWELL on Saturday, February 20, 2021 19:09:08
    On 20 Feb 2021, MIKE POWELL said the following...
    Did you not imply that more freezing rain and more thaw-and-freeze cycles are why the Texas wind turbines failed when the turbines in Canad northern Europe don't?
    More likely to get freezing rain, maybe. What I implied was that wind turbines won't work HERE (which isn't Texas) because we get more freezing rain and more thaw-and-freeze. They also wouldn't work here because, although there are plenty of days we get a lot of wind, there are many in the dead of Summer where the wind doesn't blow at all.
    Freezing rain and thaw-and-freeze are exactly why they get winterized. And
    the amount of wind in any given day doesn't matter, just as the sun going
    down doesn't inhibit solar power. We have batteries and are able to store energy. We have really big batteries, too.

    The wind turbines in Texas were not winterized. Period. Nor were the fossil fuel plants or the natural gas sources and distribution systems. Nothing was winterized, because it would cost too much money. Not too much money as in it would make the various sources of energy unprofitable, but too much money as
    in it would cut into the energy companies' obscene profits.

    The energy companies gambled and it would appear that they lost, only they didn't, did they? When the supply collapsed, the demand skyrocketed. Only the demand didn't really skyrocket, did it? The demand was the same as before the supply collapsed; it didn't change that much. What changed was the demand:supply ratio. Due to the energy companies' failure to provide reliable energy, the supply collapsed, the demand:supply ratio skyrocketed, millions were without power, the price of a unit of energy (I can't remember
    which, maybe it was a kW/h?) shot up from $20 to $9000, and suddenly the
    energy companies were profiting massively off of their own failure. Is that,
    in your opinion, how the free market is supposed to work? Because it sounds pretty f'd up to me.

    YOU have implied that things like wind turbines can be primary replacements for other power sources. In this part of the country, they cannot. Apparently in your part, they cannot, either. Also, based on input from someone from CANADA, they are not using them as primary
    sources there, either.
    That Canada is not using them as a primary source does not mean that Canada cannot use them as a primary source. You are making an assumption without backing it up. The bigger the grid, the more various sources of energy can be leveraged against each other. Some may work well in one are, some may work
    well in another, but we play to our strengths and share. But that's "socialism," isn't it?

    Why don't you move somewhere where they are a primary source, and then tell us how great things are? Oh, wait, telling us would require a reliable source of power... guess you could tell us during the hours of the day where you actually have power, if you aren't desperate for AC or heat at the same time.
    I have not lost power for more than a couple of hours during this fiasco, but millions have. Also, I can't for the life of me understand why conservatives cannot understand communication. Not just modern communication, but books
    which are centuries, millenia old. You don't have to live somewhere to know what the people living there are going through. Implying otherwise is a rhetirocal cheap shot that indicates you've got nothing to argue.

    Jeff.

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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to MIKE POWELL on Saturday, February 20, 2021 19:15:16
    On 20 Feb 2021, MIKE POWELL said the following...
    We clean up while China sits on their hands and gets paid for the jobs we have to move offshore in order to make our clean up quotas.
    China is making efforts to clean up their environment, and have recently said that they were accelerating those efforts.

    As far as the offshoring goes, the ratio between CEO and employee salaries in this country is atrocious. Perhaps the costs of cleanup could come from those profits instead of passing the buck by offshoring. But that's not going to happen in a country where greed is king, is it?

    Jeff.

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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to MIKE POWELL on Sunday, February 21, 2021 11:45:29
    On 20 Feb 2021, Jeff Thiele said the following...
    demand:supply ratio skyrocketed, millions were without power, the price
    of a unit of energy (I can't remember which, maybe it was a kW/h?) shot
    up from $20 to $9000, and suddenly the energy companies were profiting
    The unit in question was a MWh. Wholesale market prices are capped by ERCOT
    at $9/kWh or $9000/MWh, although they are usually much, much lower. The
    average price for electricity in Texas in 2020 was 11.86 cents per kWh, or $118.60/MWh.

    Jeff.

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  • From MIKE POWELL@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Sunday, February 21, 2021 08:50:00
    That Canada is not using them as a primary source does not mean that Canada cannot use them as a primary source. You are making an assumption without backing it up. The bigger the grid, the more various sources of energy can be leveraged against each other. Some may work well in one are, some may work well in another, but we play to our strengths and share. But that's "socialism," isn't it?

    "Primary source" means we can use them by themselves if we have to. What
    you just described is not using them by themselves. Back that up.


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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to MIKE POWELL on Sunday, February 21, 2021 18:35:06
    On 21 Feb 2021, MIKE POWELL said the following...
    "Primary source" means we can use them by themselves if we have to. What you just described is not using them by themselves. Back that up.

    I said that just because we're not using them as a primary source isn't a
    valid argument that we couldn't.

    Jeff.

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  • From MIKE POWELL@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 16:18:00
    "Primary source" means we can use them by themselves if we have to. What
    you just described is not using them by themselves. Back that up.

    I said that just because we're not using them as a primary source isn't a valid argument that we couldn't.

    Those big batteries you mentioned the other day... are they made out of eco-friendly material or, like most batteries, are they going to pollute
    the air/water with toxic fumes/liquids should they happen to be compromised during an earthquake, flood, or fire, or when they blow up at the plant
    they are manufactured at?


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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to MIKE POWELL on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 23:28:13
    On 23 Feb 2021, MIKE POWELL said the following...
    Those big batteries you mentioned the other day... are they made out of eco-friendly material or, like most batteries, are they going to pollute the air/water with toxic fumes/liquids should they happen to be compromised during an earthquake, flood, or fire, or when they blow up
    at the plant they are manufactured at?

    Even if they were compromised, I doubt they'd be a bigger environmental
    hazard than the Exxon Valdez, Deepwater Horizon, or even the Keystone
    Pipeline spills.

    Nice try, though.

    Jeff.

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  • From Ron Lauzon@1:120/457 to MIKE POWELL on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 09:25:28
    MIKE POWELL wrote to JEFF THIELE <=-

    Those big batteries you mentioned the other day... are they made out of eco-friendly material or, like most batteries, are they going to
    pollute the air/water with toxic fumes/liquids should they happen to be compromised during an earthquake, flood, or fire, or when they blow up
    at the plant they are manufactured at?

    According to the ignorant Lefties, batteries are made from unicorn poop. Completely non-polluting and will last forever. And they are charged from electricity generated by unicorn farts (no greenhouse gas).

    Lefties can *never* see the full circle. The only see the parts that they like.


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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Ron Lauzon on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 20:14:24
    On 24 Feb 2021, Ron Lauzon said the following...
    According to the ignorant Lefties, batteries are made from unicorn poop. Completely non-polluting and will last forever. And they are charged
    from electricity generated by unicorn farts (no greenhouse gas).

    If you'd been following along, you'd know that we were specifically discussing batteries charged by wind and/or solar.

    Jeff.

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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/107 to Jeff Thiele on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 16:21:20
    Jeff Thiele wrote to MIKE POWELL <=-

    Even if they were compromised, I doubt they'd be a bigger environmental hazard than the Exxon Valdez, Deepwater Horizon, or even the Keystone Pipeline spills.

    Don't forget Bopal, India... oh, wait, that was a battery plant...


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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 23:52:19
    On 24 Feb 2021, Mike Powell said the following...
    Don't forget Bopal, India... oh, wait, that was a battery plant...

    Are you referring to the 1984 Bhopal disaster, AKA the Bhopal gas tragedy,
    that occurred at the Union Carbide India Limited pesticide plant?

    Jeff.

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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to RON LAUZON on Thursday, February 25, 2021 15:37:00
    According to the ignorant Lefties, batteries are made from unicorn poop. Completely non-polluting and will last forever. And they are charged from electricity generated by unicorn farts (no greenhouse gas).

    Lefties can *never* see the full circle. The only see the parts that they like.


    Well that is great! Maybe I need to drink the leftie koolaid and get on
    board! Maybe we both should. We never know when one of the Politics echo lefties will become the Commisar for our local area. We don't want to wind
    up in a cage in some gulag!

    That said, I cannot find any of those magic unicorn poop batteries on the
    Lowes website. Do you know where we can get them?


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  • From Ron Lauzon@1:120/457 to Mike Powell on Friday, February 26, 2021 09:46:15
    Mike Powell wrote to Ron Lauzon <=-

    Well that is great! Maybe I need to drink the leftie koolaid and get
    on board! Maybe we both should.

    Well, they do say that ignorance is bliss. Or course, reality has a way
    of biting you in the rear really hard.

    That said, I cannot find any of those magic unicorn poop batteries on
    the Lowes website. Do you know where we can get them?

    You'd have to ask a Leftie because I've never seen them.

    Oops. Strike that. Asking a Leftie will just trigger them because they
    1) won't be able to tell you or 2) have to come to grips with the fact that they have no idea how electricity is created. Either way, they would have
    to admit that they aren't all knowing and that's painful for them.


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  • From Ron Lauzon@1:120/457 to Jeff Thiele on Friday, February 26, 2021 09:46:15
    Jeff Thiele wrote to Ron Lauzon <=-

    If you'd been following along, you'd know that we were specifically discussing batteries charged by wind and/or solar.

    And if you had any knowledge on this topic, you'd know that wind/solar can't keep up with the demand and don't work well when the wind doesn't blow or
    solar panels are covered with snow.


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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Ron Lauzon on Friday, February 26, 2021 09:05:53
    On 26 Feb 2021, Ron Lauzon said the following...
    And if you had any knowledge on this topic, you'd know that wind/solar can't keep up with the demand and don't work well when the wind doesn't blow or solar panels are covered with snow.

    Done properly, they can keep up with demand. That's why we were talking about batteries being used to even out the supply.

    Done improperly, every source can fail to keep up with demand. That is what happened in Texas.

    Jeff.

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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to RON LAUZON on Friday, February 26, 2021 11:36:00
    Oops. Strike that. Asking a Leftie will just trigger them because they
    1) won't be able to tell you or 2) have to come to grips with the fact that they have no idea how electricity is created. Either way, they would have
    to admit that they aren't all knowing and that's painful for them.

    Or they will provide a link to prove that solar power can be a reliable, primary power source. Of course, the place referenced won't
    actually exist yet, other than as "an idea," and will clearly state that if
    it ever becomes "real" it will be linked to the main (non-solar) grid so that they can maintain consistent power without brown/blackouts when the Sun
    isn't out.

    Guess those unicorn poop batteries still don't quite hold a charge for
    those ~12 hours a day known as night? I think I will pass for now until
    they can breed some higher-powered unicorns.


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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Friday, February 26, 2021 14:54:22
    Oops. Strike that. Asking a Leftie will just trigger them because they 1) won't be able to tell you or 2) have to come to grips with the fact t they have no idea how electricity is created. Either way, they would ha to admit that they aren't all knowing and that's painful for them.

    Or they will provide a link to prove that solar power can be a reliable, primary power source. Of course, the place referenced won't
    actually exist yet, other than as "an idea," and will clearly state that if it ever becomes "real" it will be linked to the main (non-solar) grid so that they can maintain consistent power without brown/blackouts when the Sun isn't out.

    False. It does exist and has been populated since 2018. It has chosen to cooperate with other energy sources rather that be off-grid; as such it does not store excess energy created during the day. The excess energy is transferred to the FPL grid and then reclaimed at night. No, it's not the "same" energy due to the transient nature of electricity, but it's a give-and-take. Your reading comprehension sucks balls.

    Jeff.

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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to JEFF THIELE on Saturday, February 27, 2021 15:46:00
    False. It does exist and has been populated since 2018. It has chosen to cooperate with other energy sources rather that be off-grid; as such it does not store excess energy created during the day. The excess energy is transferred to the FPL grid and then reclaimed at night. No, it's not the "same" energy due to the transient nature of electricity, but it's a give-and-take. Your reading comprehension sucks balls.

    No, not really. At 400 people, they may be able to do all the things you
    say they can. But they clearly state why they are staying tied to the
    grid... to maintain consistent power.

    If your chosen source of power cannot maintain consistent power when the
    sky is overcast, it isn't much of a power source.

    And that is all in FLORIDA, the "Sunshine State." Imagine what'd be like trying to maintain a city of a few thousand (isn't their target 40K
    inhabitants plus businesses?) in an area not known for its daily sunshine.

    You were asked to povide a source of something from reality and instead
    chose to provide one that is still mostly fantasy and impractical for most
    of the country.


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  • From Jeff Thiele@1:387/26 to Mike Powell on Saturday, February 27, 2021 18:44:28
    On 27 Feb 2021, Mike Powell said the following...
    No, not really. At 400 people, they may be able to do all the things you say they can. But they clearly state why they are staying tied to the grid... to maintain consistent power.

    In other words, solar is not their only primary source of energy. And they
    put enough into the grid to more than offset their grid usage.

    If your chosen source of power cannot maintain consistent power when the sky is overcast, it isn't much of a power source.

    That's why we leverage different power sources.

    And that is all in FLORIDA, the "Sunshine State." Imagine what'd be like trying to maintain a city of a few thousand (isn't their target 40K inhabitants plus businesses?) in an area not known for its daily
    sunshine.

    Location wasn't specified in your original request. But I would not argue
    that it's certainly a consideration. Dubai is also using solar for a lot of things.

    You were asked to povide a source of something from reality and instead chose to provide one that is still mostly fantasy and impractical for
    most of the country.

    False. I was asked to provide an example of solar providing power for "more than a household." I have shown that it is feasible as a primary source, if
    not the only source.

    Jeff.

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