Despite Republican's failed attempts to produce credible evidence of
widespread voter fraud, the occasional incident is found.

Take, for example, the case of Barry Morphew, a Colorado MAGA supporter who
has confessed to submitting his wife's ballot on her behalf. His dead wife.
Who he's accused of murdering.

According to Morphew, he did not know that submitting a ballot for a spouse
is illegal, and also expressed confidence that his wife would have voted for Trump anyway.

Perhaps most disturbing on a political front, Morphew also said that he
thought that because the "other guys" were cheating, he would "give [Trump] another vote."

This is another unfortunate side-effect of the "Big Lie." If one side
believes that the other side is cheating, regardless of the existence of evidence to support this belief, then they are more able to justify cheating themselves. That is why it is such a dangerous game that Trump and his followers are playing by encouraging distrust in the integrity of our
elections entirely devoid of credible evidence to support such a claim.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Here is the link to details of the incident I wrote about in my previous post:

https://kdvr.com/news/local/more-charges-filed-against-barry-morphew-after-murd er-arrest/

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Hello Jeff!

14 May 21 12:19, you wrote to all:

Here is the link to details of the incident I wrote about in my
previous post:

https://kdvr.com/news/local/more-charges-filed-against-barry-morphew-a fter-murd er-arrest/

Wow, I didn't know that it is so easy to vote for someone else in the USA.

Just to explain: In Austria, every person over 18 is eligible to vote (over 16 for local council elections). Every citizen is registered in the electoral register, therefore it is also before, during and after every election who is allowed to vote at a certain time. This is actually the only way to really prevent election fraud like this.

As far as I know, there are no registration and election registers in the USA. How then is it ensured that an eligible voter can only cast one vote for himself?

Michael
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
* Origin: Silent Chat Point (2:310/31.4)

On 14 May 2021, Michael Mrak said the following...

Here is the link to details of the incident I wrote about in my previous post:

Wow, I didn't know that it is so easy to vote for someone else in the
USA.

This was not an in-person vote, but must have been a mail-in. It sounds like the vote was never actually cast for a couple of reasons: a required
signature was missing and the voter's name came up as a missing person. https://www.fox21news.com/news/crime/barry-morphew-the-husband-of-a-missing-cha ffee-county-woman-faces-additional-charges/

Just to explain: In Austria, every person over 18 is eligible to vote (over 16 for local council elections). Every citizen is registered in
the electoral register, therefore it is also before, during and after every election who is allowed to vote at a certain time. This is
actually the only way to really prevent election fraud like this.

We have registers as well, typically referred to as voter rolls. It sounds
like the missing wife was a registered voter at the time her vote was
received.

As far as I know, there are no registration and election registers in
the USA. How then is it ensured that an eligible voter can only cast one vote for himself?

There is a registration process in each state, and up until embarrassingly recently (here in Texas, anyway), voting involved going to a polling place in one's own precinct (a smallish political political district, smaller than a city or town), identifying oneself, waiting while the poll worker looks one's name up in a giant book (the voter roll), and then signing next to one's name in the book. If there was already a signature next to one's name, there was a problem.

Now it's much the same (at least in Texas), but computerized and photo IDs are semi-required. In general a photo ID is required, but there are "Reasonable Impediment" exceptions. If one doesn't have an ID, one can either cast a provisional ballot, which will be counted if photo ID is presented within some set time after voting but otherwise will not, or one can file a "Reasonable Impediment Declaration" along with presenting a document such as a paycheck
or a current utility bill.

That's for in-person voting. Mail-in voting is also available. It used to be only available for certain people, like the elderly or people who were out-of-state during the election. However, with COVID mail-in options were extended more broadly. It's much the same system as in-person voting, except without the ID. Again, names are checked against the roll.

Initially, including before the election itself, Trump and his supporters
were pointing fingers at mail-in voting as a source of fraud. However, no widespread mail-in voting fraud was ever found and they eventually turned
their attention to the electronic voting systems used for in-person voting. Ironically, Trump had told people not to use mail-in voting because it was susceptible to fraud, and it's quite likely that many of his supporters heeded his advice. This, combined with various state laws requiring in-person votes to be fully counted before moving on to counting mail-in votes led to the late-night Biden surge that many Trump supporters cited as evidence of election tampering.

It seems likely that Morphew's wife was registered to vote.

Deaths during elections are always a dicey issue, due to early voting,
mail-in voting, and poor voter roll maintenance. Early-voting or mail-in ballots can be cast before the election and it's certainly possible that one could pass away in the time between one's vote having been cast and the election. Sometimes these are caught, sometimes they are not. Another issue
is that the voter rolls are maintained on a county level (larger than a town
or city, but smaller than a state), while death certificates and other vital statistics are maintained by the state. There doesn't seem to be very good communication between the state and the counties regarding deceased people being removed from the voting rolls.

In Morphew's case, it seems like his wife was registered to vote, had not yet voted, and was considered missing rather than deceased. It also doesn't sound like her vote was counted, but a failed attempt at voter fraud is just as illegal as a successful one.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Re: Voter fraud (link)
By: Michael Mrak to Jeff Thiele on Fri May 14 2021 19:53:40

Wow, I didn't know that it is so easy to vote for someone else in the USA.

Careful. If you continue that thought to it's logical conclusion, ie that only citizens hould be allowed to vote, and that there should be some simple, universal method to ensure that happens, then you are an alt-right, facist who wants to "suppress voters of colour".

<shrug>

Boondock
===
BoonDock
El Gato de Fuego - elgato.synchronetbbs.org 4:92/1 - Pedasi/Panama



... Never let your feet run faster than your shoes.
--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
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On 14 May 2021, John Dovey said the following...

Wow, I didn't know that it is so easy to vote for someone else in the

Careful. If you continue that thought to it's logical conclusion, ie
that only citizens hould be allowed to vote, and that there should be
some simple, universal method to ensure that happens, then you are an alt-right, facist who wants to "suppress voters of colour".

Making sure that only people eligible to vote can vote is the purpose of
voter registration. That is how voters get onto the voter rolls, and only
those on the voter rolls can vote.

The rest of the statement is hyperbolic right-wing tripe intended to paint Democrats as wanting ineligible voters to vote, which is not true.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Hello John!

14 May 21 20:56, you wrote to me:

Wow, I didn't know that it is so easy to vote for someone else in
the USA.

Careful. If you continue that thought to it's logical conclusion, ie
that only citizens hould be allowed to vote, and that there should be
some simple, universal method to ensure that happens, then you are an alt-right, facist who wants to "suppress voters of colour".

I think this should not be an ideological question. Isn't it also the case in the USA that only citizens can vote? In Austria, there are basically three gradations here:

- Municipal level: Here all citizens of the EU are allowed to vote
(already from the age of 16).
- National level: Here only citizens of Austria may vote (from 18)
- EU level: Here, all citizens of the EU may vote (from 18 years).

Since every citizen in Europe has an official photo ID (passport, identity card) and there is also a population register, this results in maximum security with regard to the prevention of electoral fraud.

I do not see this ideologically. Why should people of color be prevented from voting if they have U.S. citizenship? Of course, the system described above requires that every citizen be able to obtain an official photo ID easily and without barrier (cost). Is this not also ensured in the USA?

Michael


--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
* Origin: Silent Chat Point (2:310/31.4)

Hello Jeff!

14 May 21 16:34, you wrote to John Dovey:

Making sure that only people eligible to vote can vote is the purpose
of voter registration. That is how voters get onto the voter rolls,
and only those on the voter rolls can vote.

I understand that. It just needs to be ensured that every citizen who wants to vote can access the voter register easily and without barriers.

Do I understand correctly that in the U.S. you have to register with the voter registry beforehand and that you are not automatically listed as a citizen in the voter registry, as is the case in Europe? In my opinion, that could be improved.

Michael


--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
* Origin: Silent Chat Point (2:310/31.4)

On 15 May 2021, Michael Mrak said the following...

Do I understand correctly that in the U.S. you have to register with the voter registry beforehand and that you are not automatically listed as a citizen in the voter registry, as is the case in Europe? In my opinion, that could be improved.

Mostly. Some states allow day-of registration, and there is a "Motor Voter"
law that allows people to register semi-automatically at the time they renew their (state) drivers license. But you are correct in that all citizens are
not automatically listed.

I think that this is probably due to each state having its own voting laws
and each county maintaining its own voter roll. There is no national voter registry and no national ID system other than passports, which are optional
and generally only acquired for overseas travel.

There are processes for removing people from the voter rolls, too. These are commonly called purges. Deceased people get purged, as do felons.
Occasionally a confirmation notice is sent to the address of a voter and if
the voter fails to respond in a certain amount of time, they are purged. In Texas, registered voters are automatically renewed each election cycle, so unless one moves to a different political precinct, re-registration is not required. However, some states have rules in place under which voters are purged from the roll if they fail to vote in some number of consecutive elections.

In general, the registration and voting rules are determined state-by-state. The US, and especially the South (which was named prior to westward expansion, and is now actually the southern and southeastern parts of the country), have had a long history of controlling who could and could not vote, generally by dishonest means and for dishonest purposes. The system we have now is very
much a patchwork system and far from unified.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Hello Jeff,

Despite Republican's failed attempts to produce credible evidence of widespread voter fraud, the occasional incident is found.

Take, for example, the case of Barry Morphew, a Colorado MAGA supporter who
has confessed to submitting his wife's ballot on her behalf. His dead wife.
Who he's accused of murdering.

According to Morphew, he did not know that submitting a ballot for a spouse
is illegal, and also expressed confidence that his wife would have voted for
Trump anyway.

Perhaps most disturbing on a political front, Morphew also said that he thought that because the "other guys" were cheating, he would "give [Trump]
another vote."

Mayor Daley knew how to do it right. Chicago-style is the way to go.

This is another unfortunate side-effect of the "Big Lie." If one side believes that the other side is cheating, regardless of the existence of evidence to support this belief, then they are more able to justify cheating
themselves. That is why it is such a dangerous game that Trump and his followers are playing by encouraging distrust in the integrity of our elections entirely devoid of credible evidence to support such a claim.

Nobody saw any zombies voting, yet their votes counted. All of them
for JFK. Checkers was so disappointed ...

--Lee

--
Donald Trump! Go away! Racist, sexist, anti-gay!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Jeff Thiele wrote to All <=-

Despite Republican's failed attempts to produce credible evidence of widespread voter fraud, the occasional incident is found.

So the drivel starts off with the Narrative (because the Narrative is always true - no matter how false it is): There is no voter fraud.
But evidence of voter fraud has been found and more evidence is being found every day, so Jeff has to adjust the Narrative with an "occasional incident is found".

Then he focuses your attention (rememeber that misdirection is a hallmark of Leftie arguments) on a non-example put forth as an example of the "occasional incident".

He wants direct your attention away from how an independant researcher proved that the voting machines in Antrim County, Michigan, changed votes.

He wants to direct your attention away from the Maricopa County, AZ, hand recount, where they have detected many, major problems (missing ballots, officials not having access to the machines that they are supposed to be administrating, etc).

He wants to direct your attention away from the areas who seem to have record number of voter registrations. Interestingly, now that the Census is done, those areas seem to have more votes than voters.

This is another unfortunate side-effect of the "Big Lie."

Then he pushes more of the Narrative. Taking Dinesh D'Souza's "The Big Lie" term, stealing it for himself and saying that applies to the other side. Projection is another hallmark of the Left, but they also like to do the opposite: take what you say about them and say it's really about you - with no evidence, of course.

(Side note: If you haven't seen Dinesh D'Souza's "The Big Lie" documentary, it's really good.)

cheating themselves. That is why it is such a dangerous game that Trump and his followers are playing by encouraging distrust in the integrity
of our elections entirely devoid of credible evidence to support such a claim.

And finishing it off with a trifecta of Projection, Narrative Pushing and assertions without any facts to back it up.

I think Jeff is trying to get hired at CNN. But I think that's just a pipe dream. CNN will be out of business before that.


... It wasn't my fault your wife wandered into my house!
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 (1:275/89)

Hello Ron,

Despite Republican's failed attempts to produce credible evidence of
widespread voter fraud, the occasional incident is found.

So the drivel starts off with the Narrative (because the Narrative is always
true - no matter how false it is): There is no voter fraud.

That's right. There is no credible evidence of widespread voter fraud.

But evidence of voter fraud has been found and more evidence is being found
every day,

So where is credible evidence of widespread voter fraud? Nobody
has seen it yet. No judge anywhere in the country.

so Jeff has to adjust the Narrative with an "occasional incident is found".

Show me.

--Lee

--
Work sets you free.
--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Jeff!

15 May 21 10:38, you wrote to me:

In general, the registration and voting rules are determined state-by-state. The US, and especially the South (which was named
prior to westward expansion, and is now actually the southern and southeastern parts of the country), have had a long history of
controlling who could and could not vote, generally by dishonest means
and for dishonest purposes. The system we have now is very much a patchwork system and far from unified.

Thank you for this comprehensive description of the voting system. So that means that (at least implicitly) certain segments of the population are made more difficult to vote at the ballot box, if I have understood that correctly?

Because the only thing that should be checked is whether someone is eligible to vote or not.

Michael


--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
* Origin: Silent Chat Point (2:310/31.4)

On 15 May 2021, Ron Lauzon said the following...

He wants direct your attention away from how an independant researcher proved that the voting machines in Antrim County, Michigan, changed
votes.

He has done the same kind of thing with me over several messages when we were discussing the topic as to why there always seems to be a riot within the black community. His soapbox seems to be labeled Police Brutality, but when it is pointed out that more Whites die by the hands of the Police. His lefty logic talks about proportionality. He can not seem to accept that Whites do not gather in group in multiple cities seen across the nation, or congregate near police stations with other like minded fools as the numbers grow and swell
into a angry crowd, all over someone who they:
1. They don't even know the perp(s)
2. "The Incident" has happened thousands of miles from where the protesters
are protesting. Case & point I saw a group of protesters at the
Western Avenue police station, in Albany, NY just the other day.
3. Whites don't hold a vigils like this, nor would they allow a peaceful
protest to grow into a riot and become an angry mob that continues well
into the night w/ destruction, damaging property, with a night of
purposeful rampage. Toppled Statues as if to break from those beliefs,
that which was a understanding should therefore be timeless and stand
forever more. The real problem being with these people and not the statues
themselves. The images of the aftermath looking similar to a warzone,
complete w/torched & burned out metal shells which used to be a vehicles.

3. Jeff can not explain, why they were shot or injured,
(just wants to reference over and over again Police Brutality)
Just as these people demonstrating within their protest / riot can not tell
you why. Many of them can't even form a full sentence to explain, whereas
the majority of these folks don't want to talk at all they would rather
throw rocks and set the city ablaze. No one wants to admit the "real"
events of how these things start. Cops just don't start shooting because
someone happens to be African-American. The truth is blatantly clear they
can not and do not want to follow or to obey Police direction which is why
they resist arrest.

We all know what happens next....

. ______ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
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{ NET 267 ³ ³1:267/150³ ³21:1/127³ ³ America ³ ³ by Gregory ³
/ 00ÄÄÄÄ00'-¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄÄ00ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ00ÄÄÄÙ --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/64)
* Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)

He wants to direct your attention away from the Maricopa County, AZ, hand recount, where they have detected many, major problems (missing ballots, officials not having access to the machines that they are supposed to be administrating, etc).

That one is actually getting interesting. Apparently, there was a
database, or some databases, that were deleted from a server. The state
wants to know what happened but Maricopa County seems to be playing it dumb.

Considering that at least some of that could be open to a public records request, deleting the data is a no-no.


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--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
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Lee Lofaso wrote to Ron Lauzon <=-

So where is credible evidence of widespread voter fraud? Nobody
has seen it yet. No judge anywhere in the country.

And the Leftie Elitism kicks in again.

"*I* haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist." The implication here is that you are so well informed and knowledgable that if something doesn't fit within your world view, it must not exist.

You've already demonstrated your extreme ignorance and lack of ability to learn for yourself. Is it any wonder why people don't bother "discussing" anything with you? There can be no discussion with someone who steadfastly refuses to accept reality no matter how many times it bites you.


... A hundred years from now, none of us will give a damn.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 (1:275/89)

On 15 May 2021, Ron Lauzon said the following...

Despite Republican's failed attempts to produce credible evidence of widespread voter fraud, the occasional incident is found.

So the drivel starts off with the Narrative (because the Narrative is always true - no matter how false it is): There is no voter fraud.
But evidence of voter fraud has been found and more evidence is being found every day, so Jeff has to adjust the Narrative with an "occasional incident is found".

There is no widespread voter fraud.

Then he focuses your attention (rememeber that misdirection is a
hallmark of Leftie arguments) on a non-example put forth as an example
of the "occasional incident".

This was very much an example. How was it a non-example? Because the vote was for Trump? Who's changing the narrative now?

He wants direct your attention away from how an independant researcher proved that the voting machines in Antrim County, Michigan, changed
votes.

This has been debunked. The mistallied votes were due to human error and were corrected.

He wants to direct your attention away from the Maricopa County, AZ, hand recount, where they have detected many, major problems (missing ballots, officials not having access to the machines that they are supposed to be administrating, etc).

This is a very partisan audit being conducted by people who are not
qualified to conduct audits.

He wants to direct your attention away from the areas who seem to have record number of voter registrations. Interestingly, now that the
Census is done, those areas seem to have more votes than voters.

This has also been debunked. In one case, votes cast in a Michigan county
were 350% of registered voters. Except... they were comparing votes from the Michigan county with registered voters from a Wisconsin county.

Then he pushes more of the Narrative. Taking Dinesh D'Souza's "The Big Lie" term, stealing it for himself and saying that applies to the other side. Projection is another hallmark of the Left, but they also like to
do the opposite: take what you say about them and say it's really about you - with no evidence, of course.

Nah. If anything, D'Souza stole it from the Nazis.

(Side note: If you haven't seen Dinesh D'Souza's "The Big Lie" documentary, it's really good.)

D'Souza's a fraud.

And finishing it off with a trifecta of Projection, Narrative Pushing and assertions without any facts to back it up.

1. Trump and his supporters are encouraging distrust in the integrity of our elections, and
2. No credible evidence of widespread voter fraud has been presented.

Both are facts.

I think Jeff is trying to get hired at CNN. But I think that's just a pipe dream. CNN will be out of business before that.

Jeff is disrupting your narrative and you really don't like that.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 16 May 2021, Michael Mrak said the following...

Thank you for this comprehensive description of the voting system. So

No problem.

that means that (at least implicitly) certain segments of the population are made more difficult to vote at the ballot box, if I have understood that correctly?

Yes. It's not as bad as it used to be, but it's still present. In the past, there were "poll taxes" which effectively kept the poor from voting, and "literacy tests," which were ostensibly used to determine if someone could read, but in fact were rigged so that the person administering the test could personally decide whether to allow that person to vote or not.

In Texas last year, voters were allowed to deposit mail-in votes in secure
drop boxes, but the governor declared that there would only be one such drop box per county. To understand the insidiousness of this order, you have to understand that most of the state's liberal voters are concentrated in large urban areas, while most of the state's conservative voters are located in sparsely-populated rural areas. This meant that in some counties, less than
100 people might share a drop box, but in other counties, more than 10
million people might share a single drop box.

In Georgia, there has been for decades a voter turnout program called "Souls
to the Polls," in which congregants of predominantly black churches would all leave church together on Sunday and go to the polls and vote. These are predominantly liberal voters, so of course the conservative Georgia
legislature had to find a way to put a stop to it. So they declared that
there would be no voting on Sundays.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 16 May 2021, Gregory Deyss said the following...

He wants direct your attention away from how an independant researche proved that the voting machines in Antrim County, Michigan, changed votes.

He has done the same kind of thing with me over several messages when we were discussing the topic as to why there always seems to be a riot
within the black community. His soapbox seems to be labeled Police Brutality, but when it is pointed out that more Whites die by the hands
of the Police. His lefty logic talks about proportionality. He can not

Unarmed blacks are killed by police at a disproportionately higher rate than whites.

of the Police. His lefty logic talks about proportionality. He can not seem to accept that Whites do not gather in group in multiple cities
seen across the nation, or congregate near police stations with other
like minded fools as the numbers grow and swell into a angry crowd, all over someone who they: 1. They don't even know the perp(s)

Is it necessary to have kown someone personally to be upset over their death
at the hands of police?

2. "The Incident" has happened thousands of miles from where the protesters are protesting. Case & point I saw a group of protesters at
the Western Avenue police station, in Albany, NY just the other day.

This is what is known as solidarity. White people used to have it in the
heyday of labor unions, too.

3. Whites don't hold a vigils like this,

Wanna bet?

3. Whites don't hold a vigils like this, nor would they allow a peaceful
protest to grow into a riot and become an angry mob that continues well into the night w/ destruction, damaging property, with a night of
purposeful rampage. Toppled Statues as if to break from those

They have rioted over far less, including sporting event outcomes and unemployment.

purposeful rampage. Toppled Statues as if to break from those
beliefs, that which was a understanding should therefore be timeless and stand forever more. The real problem being with these people and not the statues themselves.

This is racist drivel. The problem is with what the statues glorify.

statues themselves. The images of the aftermath looking similar to a warzone, complete w/torched & burned out metal shells which used to be a vehicles.

This happens sometimes, but the vast majority of protests are not like this.

3. Jeff can not explain, why they were shot or injured,
(just wants to reference over and over again Police Brutality)

On an individual basis, I can, but your attempts to generalize them as all having resisted arrest is incorrect.

Just as these people demonstrating within their protest / riot can
not tell you why. Many of them can't even form a full sentence to
explain, whereas the majority of these folks don't want to talk at all they would rather throw rocks and set the city ablaze. No one wants to

Geez, more racist drivel.

admit the "real" events of how these things start. Cops just don't start shooting because someone happens to be African-American. The truth is blatantly clear they can not and do not want to follow or to obey Police direction which is why they resist arrest.

You are incorrect on this point. Philando Castile, for example, was shot in
his car while reaching for his registration which the cop had asked him for.
He was not resisting arrest, nor was he refusing to follow direction. Your racist generalizations do not hold up to facts.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 16 May 2021, Ron Lauzon said the following...

So where is credible evidence of widespread voter fraud? Nobody
has seen it yet. No judge anywhere in the country.

And the Leftie Elitism kicks in again.
"*I* haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist." The implication here is
that you are so well informed and knowledgable that if something doesn't fit within your world view, it must not exist.

(Translation: Ron hasn't seen it, either.)

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Mike Powell wrote to RON LAUZON <=-

That one is actually getting interesting. Apparently, there was a database, or some databases, that were deleted from a server. The
state wants to know what happened but Maricopa County seems to be
playing it dumb.

Considering that at least some of that could be open to a public
records request, deleting the data is a no-no.

That probably the reason the Democrats keep trying to put blocks in the way of the audit.

They've already documented many cases of ballot mishandling (which are crimes) and the deletion of the database occured AFTER the subpoena was delivered. So it most certainly a crime.


... Hot water Heaters: hot water needs heating?
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Jeff Thiele wrote to Ron Lauzon <=-

There is no widespread voter fraud.

Repeating the Narrative doesn't make it true, no matter how much you want it to be.


... Cross river *THEN* insult alligator.
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Thank you for this comprehensive description of the voting system. So that mea
that (at least implicitly) certain segments of the population are made more d
ficult to vote at the ballot box, if I have understood that correctly?

No. Only if you believe that somehow "people of color" cannot do anything
for themselves. I don't believe that, but Jeff might.

Jeff is correct, there *used* to be a history of these things, but things
like poll taxes and other nonsense went away over 50+ years ago. There
also used to be a history of things like union workers being given
pre-marked ballots outside of voting places so that they would all cast
their votes for the same candidates. There also used to be places where political machines kept dead people on the registers and would cast votes
for them. That falls under fraud so Jeff would not likely ever mention
either of those.

Because the only thing that should be checked is whether someone is eligible t
vote or not.

That is all that is checked. Apparently wherever Jeff lives they did not
used to check even that. In order to check eligibility, in most places you have to be able to prove that you are who you say your are with some form
of ID. Most of the time, the poll worker is not going to know you
personally and has no idea if they should take your word for it or not.


* SLMR 2.1a * Docs? Why look at the Docs? Nurses are better.
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talks about proportionality. He can not seem to accept that Whites do not gather in group in multiple cities seen across the nation, or congregate near police stations with other like minded fools as the numbers grow and swell into a angry crowd, all over someone who they:

Leftist and anarchist whites do. See Portland and Seattle, and the CHAZ
for examples. IMHO, it is often these types of people who are stirring the
pot and getting others (white and of color) to act with a mob mentality.

While those they get stirred up may be acting out of emotion for some unfortunate event that has occurred, those stirring the pot are attempting
to cause unrest that will eventually lead to them getting what they want,
which likely has little to do with true equality or whatever other promises they made when they started the pot stir going.


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Hello Ron,

So where is credible evidence of widespread voter fraud? Nobody
has seen it yet. No judge anywhere in the country.

And the Leftie Elitism kicks in again.

Prove me wrong.

"*I* haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist." The implication here is that you are so well informed and knowledgable that if something doesn't fit within your world view, it must not exist.

Again, where is credible evidence of widespread voter fraud?
Is all you have an empty claim? Certainly you can do better than
that ...

You've already demonstrated your extreme ignorance and lack of ability to learn for yourself.

Most Cajuns learn quickly, and have done very well for themselves,
thank you very much.

Up to you to support and substantiate your claim.
Failure to do so shows everyone you have nothing but an empty claim.

Is it any wonder why people don't bother "discussing" anything
with you?

Being unable to answer the question is understandable.

There can be no discussion with someone who steadfastly refuses to
accept reality no matter how many times it bites you.

So, where is this "credible evidence of widespread voter fraud"?
Where can I find it? Where can anybody else find it? You sure can't.
All you have is an empty claim.

--Lee

--
Everybody Loves Our Buns
--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Michael Mrak wrote to Jeff Thiele <=-

Wow, I didn't know that it is so easy to vote for someone else in the
USA.

The Left has been working for a while to erode the voter integrity laws. But for the last election, they made many last minute (often illegal) changes to the procedures.

According to the U.S. Constitution, only the state's legislature can change voting rules. Many states (Michigan, for example) changed the rules without the legislature's approval (or even input) which makes those changes illegal.

As far as I know, there are no registration and election registers in
the USA. How then is it ensured that an eligible voter can only cast
one vote for himself?

There's supposed to be.

If you go in person, you should show I.D. (Lefties yell "That's Racist" because it lowers voter fraud) then they look you up in the register - because you needed to register to vote. If you aren't there, then you can still vote, but someone needs to verify that you are registered someplace else.

For mail in votes, you are supposed to go to your local gov't office and ask for an absentee ballot. Again, you must show I.D. and then they mark you off in the voter rolls as having gotten an absentee ballot. Normally, if you vote absentee, you are supposed to return your ballot **before** the election to the gov't office who puts your ballot, still sealed, into a secure location to be counted on election day. I think you can still drop off your absentee ballot on election day. But absentee ballots received **after** election day are not supposed to count.

But the Lefties forced through rules to bypass all this for the last election.


... Things working well, no problems. Time to upgrade.
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* Origin: Communication Connection 1:120/457 (1:120/457)

On 16 May 2021, Jeff Thiele said the following...

Unarmed blacks are killed by police at a disproportionately higher rate than whites.

How does this work when MORE whites are killed by Police then Blacks?
There is no way to make your math work here.

Is it necessary to have kown someone personally to be upset over their death at the hands of police?

Again more Whites die by the hands of Police then Blacks, so why are Whites
not showing the same behavior?

This is what is known as solidarity. White people used to have it in the heyday of labor unions, too.

So what happened? Did whites evolve, even when so "you" say when Whites did this back in the heyday it didn't rip the country apart, nor did it divide us to the extent of today's division.

They have rioted over far less, including sporting event outcomes and unemployment.

Sure we get a little rowdy when our team loses, we even get rowdy when they win, but we don't slash and burn down multiple cities across the nation nearly to the ground, nor we topple statues in multiple cities.

purposeful rampage. Toppled Statues as if to break from those beliefs, that which was a understanding should therefore be timeless stand forever more. The real problem being with these people and not statues themselves.

This is racist drivel. The problem is with what the statues glorify.

Is it still racist, if it happens to be true.
What are you talking about, you have be a special kind of stupid if someone with ANGER issues looks at a statue and thinks it's mocking me, so I need
to to beat its stone ass and rip it down? C'om on Man?

On an individual basis, I can, but your attempts to generalize them as
all having resisted arrest is incorrect.

It's a pattern - that is what a pattern is when things happen again and again.

Just as these people demonstrating within their protest / riot can not tell you why. Many of them can't even form a full sentence to explain, whereas the majority of these folks don't want to talk at al they would rather throw rocks and set the city ablaze. No one wants t

Geez, more racist drivel.

Nope just more painful truth, why is it true because it's called history.

You are incorrect on this point. Philando Castile, for example, was shot in his car while reaching for his registration which the cop had asked
him for. He was not resisting arrest, nor was he refusing to follow direction. Your racist generalizations do not hold up to facts.

There is more story to the events in the Philando Castile death.
You want me to look them up or do you want me to?

. ______ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
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/ 00ÄÄÄÄ00'-¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄÄ00ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ00ÄÄÄÙ --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/64)
* Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)

On 05-17-21 18:12, Gregory Deyss <=-
spoke to Jeff Thiele about Re: Voter fraud <=-

Unarmed blacks are killed by police at a disproportionately higher rate than whites.

How does this work when MORE whites are killed by Police then Blacks? There is no way to make your math work here.

The math is simple. As a simplified example, consider a case where
there are 1000 people with brown or black hair, and 100 with red hair,
in a certain city. Assume that 50 people with red hair are killed by
police, and that 100 people with black or brown hair are killed by
police. It is true that more black and brown are killed, but the
proportion of them is 10%. The proportion of those with red hair who
were killed is 50% -- hence those with red hair are killed at a disproportionately higher rate than those with black and brown hair.

That is a hypothetical example with made up numbers, but it illustrates
what Jeff was saying -- which is true given the actual numbers in each
case. I hope that this lets you understand.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked in Silver Spring, Maryland. 01:18:41, 18 May 2021
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

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On 17 May 2021, Ron Lauzon said the following...

There is no widespread voter fraud.

Repeating the Narrative doesn't make it true, no matter how much you
want it to be.

Exactly. There is exactly zero credible evidence of it, but you're sticking
to your "Narrative." I'll go with reality, and the reality is that no crdible evidence of widespread voter fraud has been presented.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Thank you for this comprehensive description of the voting system. So th

mea

that (at least implicitly) certain segments of the population are made

d

ficult to vote at the ballot box, if I have understood that correctly?

No. Only if you believe that somehow "people of color" cannot do
anything for themselves. I don't believe that, but Jeff might.

Yes, there are attempts to make it more difficult for certain segments of the population to vote. Of course the response to these hurdles from the right is that the targetted population can certainly vote unless they "cannot do anything for themselves." But that misses the point entirely, since the
hurdles should not be there in the first place.

Jeff is correct, there *used* to be a history of these things, but things like poll taxes and other nonsense went away over 50+ years ago. There

This is true. The more blatant forms of voter suppression are in the past,
but now they are more covert and insidious, being labelled as efforts to protect election integrity. It's no coincidence that conservative efforts to combat largely non-existent voter fraud result in voter suppression.

also used to be a history of things like union workers being given pre-marked ballots outside of voting places so that they would all cast their votes for the same candidates. There also used to be places where political machines kept dead people on the registers and would cast votes for them. That falls under fraud so Jeff would not likely ever mention either of those.

See the emphasis on fraud? You ask about suppression, Mike brings up fraud.

Because the only thing that should be checked is whether someone is elig

t

vote or not.

That is all that is checked. Apparently wherever Jeff lives they did not used to check even that. In order to check eligibility, in most places you have to be able to prove that you are who you say your are with some form of ID. Most of the time, the poll worker is not going to know you personally and has no idea if they should take your word for it or not.

I live in Texas, and they have not always checked ID, as such. The difference between then and now is similar to airline security pre-9/11 and now. Note again the topic switch from suppression to fraud.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 17 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

talks about proportionality. He can not seem to accept that Whites do no gather in group in multiple cities seen across the nation, or congregate police stations with other like minded fools as the numbers grow and swe into a angry crowd, all over someone who they:

Leftist and anarchist whites do. See Portland and Seattle, and the CHAZ for examples. IMHO, it is often these types of people who are stirring the pot and getting others (white and of color) to act with a mob mentality.

There are KKK marches in multiple towns and cities, and I have seen groups waving Trump flags on overpasses here. Also, there were multiple gatherings over statue removals, some of which turned violent. And of course, riots in
the aftermath of sporting events. And a small matter of insurrection on
January 6. It's racist to assume that whites do not gather to express grievances.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Lee Lofaso wrote to Ron Lauzon <=-

Prove me wrong.

It's not my job to educate you. You claim to be educated and knowledgeable. Research it yourself. Why should I waste my time educating someone who has proven that he cannot be educated?

But this is part of the problem with Lefties: They take the position that they are right and you have to prove them wrong. There's no room for discussion with that mentality.


Many years ago, I had a discussion with a semi-leftie on the BBSs. I asserted "media bias" and he, working in media, disagreed. He challenged me to give him an example and he would research the same example, independently.

So I provided him an example. True to his word, he took my example and independently researched it.

The end result was that I didn't change his mind, but he admitted that he could find no flaw in my example. i.e. it certainly looked like media bias.

That's how discussions work. Both sides need to have an open mind and have to accept the fact that they might be wrong.

And that's why "arguing" with Lefties is pointless: Lefties will NEVER admit that they are wrong.


... Honesty pays, but not enough for some.
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On 15 May 2021, Ron Lauzon said the following...

The Left has been working for a while to erode the voter integrity laws.

This is somewhat true, somewhat misleading. The left (by which I mean
liberals, not necessarily Democrats -- that's a whole different story which
I might as well tell at the end of this post because misconstruing the
history of the parties is a beloved right-wing talking point) has supported increased voting rights throughout American history. From black suufrage to women's suffrage, liberals have supported expanding the right to vote while conservatives, as their name implies they are wont to do, opposed any changes.

Inasmuch as conservatives have introduced "voter integrity" laws that impede the right to vote, liberals have opposed them. That is not quite the same as saying that the left "has been working to erode the voter integrity laws."
Many if not all of the laws we're working to "erode" are relatively new.

But for the last election, they made many last minute (often illegal) changes to the procedures.

It was a pandemic. The "illegal" changes were made to make it safer and
easier to vote amid the COVID-19 pandemic. Some changes included increased eligibility for mail-in voting and opportunities to vote without exiting
one's vehicle.

As a side note, I voted in person and everyone was wearing a mask, making
photo ID questionable at best.

According to the U.S. Constitution, only the state's legislature can change voting rules. Many states (Michigan, for example) changed the rules without the legislature's approval (or even input) which makes
those changes illegal.

Texas sued four states over changes to voting procedures; the Supreme Court ruled that Texas does not have standing to sue other states over their voting procedures. As far as I know, no lawsuits have been filed from within the respective states, though.

Also, no evidence of widespread voter fraud capable of altering an election outcome has been presented, whether related to these changes or otherwise,
and not for lack of looking.

As far as I know, there are no registration and election registers in the USA. How then is it ensured that an eligible voter can only cast one vote for himself?

There's supposed to be.

Yep, there are.

If you go in person, you should show I.D. (Lefties yell "That's Racist" because it lowers voter fraud) then they look you up in the register - because you needed to register to vote. If you aren't there, then you
can still vote, but someone needs to verify that you are registered someplace else.

Requiring state-issued photo ID does introduce hurdles for certain segments
of the population, not incoincidentally segments that tend to vote for more liberal candidates.

For mail in votes, you are supposed to go to your local gov't office and ask for an absentee ballot. Again, you must show I.D. and then they
mark you off in the voter rolls as having gotten an absentee ballot. Normally, if you vote absentee, you are supposed to return your ballot **before** the election to the gov't office who puts your ballot, still sealed, into a secure location to be counted on election day. I think
you can still drop off your absentee ballot on election day. But
absentee ballots received **after** election day are not supposed to count.

This is true, although I think that some changes were made in some states,
such as it being acceptable for the mailed-in ballot to be postmarked by election day. Again, this would have been introduced to make sure that people were able to vote despite the pandemic. Also, I think some states pro-actively mailed out ballots, or tried to, for the same reason.

But the Lefties forced through rules to bypass all this for the last election.

And yet, no instances of widespread voter fraud were found.

Now, about the ideological history of the parties...

Currently, the parties are split along liberal conservative lines, with the Democrats representing the liberals and the Republicans representing the conservatives. But this is not the way it has always been. In the past, the parties were divided more along geographical lines, with the Republicans
being more prominent in the North and the Democrats more prominent in the South. That said, there were conservative and liberal Republicans, and there were conservative and liberal Democrats. However, over time, the geographic regions developed vastly different economies. The North contained many industrial centers while the South was largely agrarian. The Southern economy relied heavily on slave labor for its livelihood, while the Northern economy did not. Tensions rose over the morality of slavery and various compromises were reached, among them introducing the concept of "slave states" and "free states." As more states were added to the US, the balance of "slave states"
and "free states" was tenuously maintained, being important because the
federal legislature, and especially the Senate, was comprised of representatives from the states. Too many "slave states" and slave holders would have a majority; too many "free states" and the growing abolitionist movement would have a majority. Sensing a threat to their slavery-based economy, the Southern states decided to secede, which kicked off the US Civil War.

The political parties being what they were at the time, the North was largely Republican and the South was largely Democrat, although there were
exceptions. However, the South was largely a slavery-supporting Democrat-controlled region and by modern moral standards (to which I wholeheartedly subscribe) these Southern Democrats were very much in the
wrong. The North (aka "the Union") won the war, the South (aka "the Confederacy") lost, and the period during which the states were re-acclimated to the US was known as Reconstruction. This was the heyday of the poll taxes and literacy tests for voting, and the Southern Democrats were responsible
for this. The KKK was formed, and Southern Democrats were responsible for
this.

Fast forward to the mid-20th century. Racial tensions were high, especially
in the South (or, more specifically, the Old South, which is now the southeastern portion of the US). There was a Civil Rights Movement in which blacks were struggling to be granted equal rights. Segregation (the US
version of Apartheid) was widespread, and Southern Democrats were still
largely responsible for this, and the Republicans were largely against it.

But then Republican politicians began coveting the Southern Democrat's voting base. They noticed that if they appealed to the white Southern racists, they could get a lot of votes. And so they did, overtly at first and then more covertly through "dog whistles." A "dog whistle" is something that sounds relatively innocent (like "voter integrity") but with a wink and a nod means something much less innocent (like "voter suppression"). The Republicans' "Southern Strategy" was quite successful and in fact led to many of the Southern Democrats switching parties, eventually leading to a full flip of
the party platforms.

So yes, it is true that Democrats once supported slavery. Yes, it is true
that Democrats formed the KKK. Yes, it is true that Democrats opposed equal rights for blacks. All of that is true, but it's not the whole story and it
has no bearing on who the Democrats are today. This is why you will see Republicans brandishing Confederate flags; this is why you'll see Republicans opposing the removal of Confederate statues and monuments; this is why you'll see the KKK and other racist groups at right-wing gatherings.

It took a bit longer for the parties to align along liberal conservative
lines; this didn't happen until the Reagan presidency and has only solidified since.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 17 May 2021, Gregory Deyss said the following...

Unarmed blacks are killed by police at a disproportionately higher ra than whites.

How does this work when MORE whites are killed by Police then Blacks? There is no way to make your math work here.

There are more whites in the population than there are blacks. The math works out just fine. If you have 10 marbles, 8 of which are white and two of which are black, and you remove two white marbles and one black marble, it's pretty obvious that you've removed more white marbles than black. But it should also be obvious that you've removed 50% of the black marbles but only 25% of the white marbles.

Is it necessary to have kown someone personally to be upset over thei death at the hands of police?

Again more Whites die by the hands of Police then Blacks, so why are Whites not showing the same behavior?

Because it's disproportionate in their favor. Get out those marbles again.

This is what is known as solidarity. White people used to have it in heyday of labor unions, too.

So what happened? Did whites evolve, even when so "you" say when Whites did this back in the heyday it didn't rip the country apart, nor did it divide us to the extent of today's division.

Ooh, you really need to study the history of American labor unions.

They have rioted over far less, including sporting event outcomes and unemployment.

Sure we get a little rowdy when our team loses, we even get rowdy when they win, but we don't slash and burn down multiple cities across the nation nearly to the ground, nor we topple statues in multiple cities.

In individual cities, though, yes they do.

purposeful rampage. Toppled Statues as if to break from those beliefs, that which was a understanding should therefore be time stand forever more. The real problem being with these people and statues themselves.

This is racist drivel. The problem is with what the statues glorify.

Is it still racist, if it happens to be true.

Glorification of racist ideals may have been intended to "stand forever more" but do they deserve to? No. You are defending the glorification of racist ideals. That's racism.

What are you talking about, you have be a special kind of stupid if someone with ANGER issues looks at a statue and thinks it's mocking me,
so I need to to beat its stone ass and rip it down? C'om on Man?

It represents a history of oppression. Statues of Saddam Hussein were torn down, Nazi trappings were torn down. It's in no way unheard of to remove symbols of oppression.

On an individual basis, I can, but your attempts to generalize them a all having resisted arrest is incorrect.

It's a pattern - that is what a pattern is when things happen again and again.

Except when it doesn't.

Just as these people demonstrating within their protest / riot c not tell you why. Many of them can't even form a full sentence t explain, whereas the majority of these folks don't want to talk they would rather throw rocks and set the city ablaze. No one wa

Geez, more racist drivel.

Nope just more painful truth, why is it true because it's called history.

They are fully willing to talk and can easily form full sentences. The
problem is that you don't want to hear what they have to say. Painting them
as stupid and unable to speak properly is racist.

You are incorrect on this point. Philando Castile, for example, was s in his car while reaching for his registration which the cop had aske him for. He was not resisting arrest, nor was he refusing to follow direction. Your racist generalizations do not hold up to facts.

There is more story to the events in the Philando Castile death.
You want me to look them up or do you want me to?

Be my guest. (You don't know what they are off-hand?) He told the officer that he had a handgun, which he had every right to have, and the officer freaked
out when he reached for his license and registration as requested by the officer. He was in no way resisting arrest.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 18 May 2021, Ron Lauzon said the following...

And that's why "arguing" with Lefties is pointless: Lefties will NEVER admit that they are wrong.

And when have you admitted that you were wrong?

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 17 May 2021, Ron Lauzon said the following...

They've already documented many cases of ballot mishandling (which are crimes) and the deletion of the database occured AFTER the subpoena was delivered. So it most certainly a crime.

No, they haven't. This is a partisan audit being conducted by people who neither know how to audit nor know anything about what they are auditing.
They leap to conclusions in service of validating preconceived conspiracy theories without knowing what it is that they're actually looking at. They're going in trying to prove that Trump won, and will not hesitate to twist the facts to support that conclusion. Maricopa County has already been audited three times, and no evidence of widespread voting fraud was found.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 17 May 2021, Ron Lauzon said the following...

That one is actually getting interesting. Apparently, there was a database, or some databases, that were deleted from a server. The state wants to know what happened but Maricopa County seems to be playing it dumb.

That probably the reason the Democrats keep trying to put blocks in the way of the audit.
They've already documented many cases of ballot mishandling (which are crimes) and the deletion of the database occured AFTER the subpoena was delivered. So it most certainly a crime.

In reality, the Maricopa Board of supervisors, which is comprised of four Republicans and one Democrat, has demanded that the (Arizona) Senate
President "immediately rescind your false and malicious tweet," adding that "Your tweet, which relies on the 'modified date' shown in the screenshot as evidence of wrongdoing, is demonstrably false; the only thing it does demonstrate is your auditors' incompetence. Their stunning lack of a basic understanding for how their software works is egregious and only made worse
by the false tweet sent defaming the hardworking employees of Maricopa
County."

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

How does this work when MORE whites are killed by Police then Blacks?
There is no way to make your math work here.

Math is suppression.

This is racist drivel. The problem is with what the statues glorify.

Is it still racist, if it happens to be true.

What are you talking about, you have be a special kind of stupid if someone with ANGER issues looks at a statue and thinks it's mocking me, so I need
to to beat its stone ass and rip it down? C'om on Man?

Have him explain why statues of Lincoln were also targets of complaints in
some places. That ought to be a funny read.


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--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
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Thank you for this comprehensive description of the voting system. So t

mea

that (at least implicitly) certain segments of the population are made

d

ficult to vote at the ballot box, if I have understood that correctly?

No. Only if you believe that somehow "people of color" cannot do anything for themselves. I don't believe that, but Jeff might.

Yes, there are attempts to make it more difficult for certain segments of the population to vote. Of course the response to these hurdles from the right is that the targetted population can certainly vote unless they "cannot do anything for themselves." But that misses the point entirely, since the hurdles should not be there in the first place.

Having an ID, so you can prove that you are registered to vote, is not a
hurdle that only certain groups of people face. Just because no one where you live used to care if you were registered or not does not make it a good practice.

Jeff is correct, there *used* to be a history of these things, but things
like poll taxes and other nonsense went away over 50+ years ago. There

This is true. The more blatant forms of voter suppression are in the past, but now they are more covert and insidious, being labelled as efforts to protect election integrity. It's no coincidence that conservative efforts to combat largely non-existent voter fraud result in voter suppression.

Why do you think the voter fraud is non-existent now? Could it be because,
as part of past election reforms, areas of the US started requiring an ID to vote, which is something you now want removed?

I would bet hard money that if it was Trump that said people should have an
ID, you'd have no problem with it... especially if it was Obama or Biden or HRC.

also used to be a history of things like union workers being given pre-marked ballots outside of voting places so that they would all cast their votes for the same candidates. There also used to be places where political machines kept dead people on the registers and would cast votes
for them. That falls under fraud so Jeff would not likely ever mention either of those.

See the emphasis on fraud? You ask about suppression, Mike brings up fraud.

Because you want us to remove things that prevent fraud but do not provide
any additional suppression. It is not like they tell people "You have to
have an ID if you are (fill in the blank with race or creed or...)." No,
it is "You have to have an ID" and that means everyone. How is that suppression?

Because the only thing that should be checked is whether someone is eli

t

vote or not.

That is all that is checked. Apparently wherever Jeff lives they did not
used to check even that. In order to check eligibility, in most places you have to be able to prove that you are who you say your are with some form of ID. Most of the time, the poll worker is not going to know you personally and has no idea if they should take your word for it or not.

I live in Texas, and they have not always checked ID, as such. The difference between then and now is similar to airline security pre-9/11 and now. Note again the topic switch from suppression to fraud.

I didn't mention fraud in that paragraph. You mentioned it in response. Michael asked about eligibility. You have to prove you are registered to
be eligible to vote. In most areas, that means showing an ID. Just taking your word for it is not good enough in most areas. Like I said, apparently where you live they did not previously care if you are registered or not.


* SLMR 2.1a * Psychoceramics: The study of crackpots.
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Inasmuch as conservatives have introduced "voter integrity" laws that impede the right to vote, liberals have opposed them. That is not quite the same as saying that the left "has been working to erode the voter integrity laws." Many if not all of the laws we're working to "erode" are relatively new.

Aside from saying that rules that make you prove you are registered to vote
and that who you say you are "impede the right to vote," you have never proven it beyond your usual "because I said so."

The only thing these rules truly impede is preventing those who are not eligible to vote from doing so.


* SLMR 2.1a * How do you know if you run out of invisible ink?
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Hello Ron,

Wow, I didn't know that it is so easy to vote for someone else in the
USA.

The Left has been working for a while to erode the voter integrity laws. But
for the last election, they made many last minute (often illegal) changes to
the procedures.

According to the U.S. Constitution, only the state's legislature can change
voting rules. Many states (Michigan, for example) changed the rules without
the legislature's approval (or even input) which makes those changes illegal.

Good luck trying to overturn the Civil Rights Act, etc.

--Lee

--
Change Is Cumming

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 18 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

How does this work when MORE whites are killed by Police then Blacks? There is no way to make your math work here.

Math is suppression.

That is the most ignorant statement I've heard in some time.

This is racist drivel. The problem is with what the statues glorify

Is it still racist, if it happens to be true.

What are you talking about, you have be a special kind of stupid if some with ANGER issues looks at a statue and thinks it's mocking me, so I nee to to beat its stone ass and rip it down? C'om on Man?

Have him explain why statues of Lincoln were also targets of complaints
in some places. That ought to be a funny read.

I don't know, I'm not responsible for any complaints about Lincoln statues
(or any statues for that matter). I'm opposed to the statues I'm opposed to, for the reasons I'm opposed to them, and in cases where my views intersect
with those of others I can explain to dense conservatives why people feel
that way.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 18 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Having an ID, so you can prove that you are registered to vote, is not a hurdle that only certain groups of people face. Just because no one
where you live used to care if you were registered or not does not make
it a good practice.

It's a hurdle for people who don't have the right type of ID. Contrary to conservative messaging, it is possible to get by in the US today with no ID (and even go grocery shopping, despite Trump's ignorant remarks to the contrary).

Not requiring ID doesn't mean that no one cares if one is registered or not. How on Earth did you jump to that absurd conclusion? Before photo ID was required, people were still required to register and identify themselves at
the polls. They just didn't need ID to do so. This is not limited to my
area; how do you suppose people voted before the advent of photography and photo IDs?

Why do you think the voter fraud is non-existent now? Could it be because, as part of past election reforms, areas of the US started requiring an ID to vote, which is something you now want removed?

Because as sources of widespread voter fraud were discovered, they were dealt with. Voter ID was only really introduced in 2012; prior to that, voter ID
laws had been blocked by the courts and DOJ. Are you saying that widespread voter fraud was present in 2000 and 2004? As I recall, the voting scandal du jour back then was "hanging chads."

I would bet hard money that if it was Trump that said people should have an ID, you'd have no problem with it... especially if it was Obama or Biden or HRC.

What? "[I]f it was Trump [...] especially if it was Obama or Biden or HRC?" I remember when Republicans were steadfastly opposed to a national ID system. They didn't want themselves "put into a database somewhere." It's not surprising to me at all that Obama, Biden, and HRC would oppose voter suppression.

also used to be a history of things like union workers being given pre-marked ballots outside of voting places so that they would all their votes for the same candidates. There also used to be places political machines kept dead people on the registers and would cast votes
for them. That falls under fraud so Jeff would not likely ever men either of those.

See the emphasis on fraud? You ask about suppression, Mike brings up fra

Because you want us to remove things that prevent fraud but do not
provide any additional suppression. It is not like they tell people
"You have to have an ID if you are (fill in the blank with race or creed or...)." No, it is "You have to have an ID" and that means everyone.
How is that suppression?

Acquiring an acceptable ID is a hurdle for some people. Sources of fraud such as those you mention were handled well prior to the photo ID requirements.

That is all that is checked. Apparently wherever Jeff lives they d not
used to check even that. In order to check eligibility, in most pl you have to be able to prove that you are who you say your are with form of ID. Most of the time, the poll worker is not going to know personally and has no idea if they should take your word for it or

I live in Texas, and they have not always checked ID, as such. The diffe between then and now is similar to airline security pre-9/11 and now. No again the topic switch from suppression to fraud.

I didn't mention fraud in that paragraph. You mentioned it in response. Michael asked about eligibility. You have to prove you are registered to be eligible to vote. In most areas, that means showing an ID. Just taking your word for it is not good enough in most areas. Like I said, apparently where you live they did not previously care if you are registered or not.

They did care whether one was registered or not, but photo ID was not
required. Did you even vote before 2012? You act like photo ID has been on
the books forever, but it has not. With photo ID being ostensibly an
anti-fraud measure, you brought up fraud when you went beyond Michael's question of whether voters need to be registered or not.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 18 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Inasmuch as conservatives have introduced "voter integrity" laws that im the right to vote, liberals have opposed them. That is not quite the sam saying that the left "has been working to erode the voter integrity laws Many if not all of the laws we're working to "erode" are relatively new.

Aside from saying that rules that make you prove you are registered to vote and that who you say you are "impede the right to vote," you have never proven it beyond your usual "because I said so."

It is a hurdle for some people to obtain the proper form of ID for voting.
Not everyone uses these forms of ID on a daily basis. (Heck, I've used my driver's license less than 10 times in the past year!)

The only thing these rules truly impede is preventing those who are not eligible to vote from doing so.

That's where you are wrong. They prevent those who do not possess these types of ID from voting.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

It is a hurdle for some people to obtain the proper form of ID for
voting. Not everyone uses these forms of ID on a daily basis. (Heck,
I've used my driver's license less than 10 times in the past year!)

If a person can't get an ID (if you drive a car you have one) then they don't need to be voting anyway. Stop with the naive messages that some people just can't get a ID, by saying so your implying there to ignorant and if that is the case they shouldn't be voting.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/02/12 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Communication Connection 1:120/457 (1:120/457)

On 18 May 2021, Jeff Squires said the following...

It is a hurdle for some people to obtain the proper form of ID for voting. Not everyone uses these forms of ID on a daily basis. (Heck, I've used my driver's license less than 10 times in the past year!)

If a person can't get an ID (if you drive a car you have one) then they don't need to be voting anyway. Stop with the naive messages that some people just can't get a ID, by saying so your implying there to ignorant and if that is the case they shouldn't be voting.

Excuse me? Only people who drive are allowed to vote? Many people live in
urban centers where owning a vehicle isn't absolutely necessary, and if one doesn't need one's own vehicle, one doesn't really need a driver's license,
do they? In the not-so-distant past, driving a car was considered a male job and women did not feel the need to drive themselves.

I'm not implying that anyone is ignorant, only that acquiring an acceptable
ID represents a hurdle for someone who doesn't already have one, *especially* if they don't have a car. Restricting voting to only those who drive is *definitely* voter suppression.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Hello Jeff!

18 May 21 10:13, you wrote to Ron Lauzon:

And that's why "arguing" with Lefties is pointless: Lefties will
NEVER admit that they are wrong.

And when have you admitted that you were wrong?

That is EXACTLY what I meant Jeff. I can confirm that almost 100%: No ability to self-reflect. For example, you gave a fact-based description of the Democrats' (thoroughly dark) past in the South in your previous post. You'll never read anything comparable from people on the right. They do everything right and have done everything right in the past. And ultimately, in their perception, their president is right about everything and everyone. Distorted perception of reality.

Michael


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Hello Jeff!

18 May 21 10:19, you wrote to Ron Lauzon:

they're actually looking at. They're going in trying to prove that
Trump won, and will not hesitate to twist the facts to support that conclusion. Maricopa County has already been audited three times, and
no evidence of widespread voting fraud was found.

I perceive this almost as an unconditional "faith in leaders". I think that is a special feature that distinguishes "Trumpists".

Michael


--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
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Hello Jeff!

18 May 21 08:58, you wrote to me:

And yet, no instances of widespread voter fraud were found.

Thank you for this historical overview of US political history. Some things I was aware of (e.g. that the Democrats originally affirmed slavery), some things I was not.

It is interesting to see that there has been a similar development in Europe as well. Of course, the history of Europe over the last 300 years cannot be compared 1:1. But I find it interesting, for example, that since the 1990s the right-wing populist parties in Europe have also managed to win over some of the original left-wing voters.

Many formerly conservative parties have also developed into far-right parties in the EU, for example here in Austria, where the People's Party, with a charismatic young leader, is now again fishing in the territory of the far-right, but still manages to retain its conservative base.

The methods are quite similar: external threats are hyped up (e.g. the refugee movement from the Middle East), discussions about "social parasites" are triggered. Fear and resentment are atoned for, and with the help of the big yellow press, this works very well here, too.

Social democracy (in many ways comparable to the Democrats in the U.S.) tries to counter with the values of justice (e.g., also tax justice) and also green issues. There are also green parties that are gaining massive votes, for example it is not completely unrealistic that in Germany the Greens will lead the next government. On the other hand, this of course means a further weakening of the Social Democrats.

As I have written before, there are individual heads of state in Europe who openly want to establish "illiberal democracy". The whole thing goes in these (mostly former states of the Eastern bloc) also almost always accompanied by massive corruption.

So the bottom line is that Europe and the U.S. are currently perceiving similar social political phenomena.

What I also notice, both in the U.S. and in our country, is that right-wing oriented people are usually not capable of self-reflection and certainly not of self-irony. My perception is that they seem very blinded.

Michael
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On 05-18-21 19:34, Jeff Thiele <=-
spoke to Jeff Squires about Re: Voter fraud (link) <=-

I'm not implying that anyone is ignorant, only that acquiring an acceptable ID represents a hurdle for someone who doesn't already have one, *especially* if they don't have a car. Restricting voting to only those who drive is *definitely* voter suppression.

There was once a time that the right to vote was only given to men
(mostly white) who owned property.

Also, I have voted in my state for multiple decades, and cannot recall
being asked for any sort of ID. In fact, in the last election, I voted
in a county new to me and did not show any ID, either to register or to
vote.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked in Silver Spring, Maryland. 02:12:51, 19 May 2021
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
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Hello Ron,

Prove me wrong.

It's not my job to educate you.

*You* made the claim.
*You* prove it.

You claim to be educated and knowledgeable.

*You* made the claim about massive voter fraud.
*You* prove it.

Research it yourself.

No need. It is *you* who made the claim.
Up to *you* to prove it.

Why should I waste my time educating someone who has
proven that he cannot be educated?

*You* made the claim. Not me.
Up to *you* to prove it.

But this is part of the problem with Lefties:

Has nothing to do with "Lefties" - you have been challenged
to prove your claim. Had you not made such a silly claim, nobody
would have challenged you. Since you have been unable to support
or substantiate your silly claim with any credible evidence,
everybody (regardless if they are a "Leftie" or a "Rightie") that
you are full of beans.

They take the position that they are right and you have to prove them wrong.

Being unable to support your own position shows you have no
credibility of your own.

There's no room for discussion with that mentality.

St. Paul told us to question everything. I am merely following
his advice. He got himself beheaded for that. Jesus got crucified.

Many years ago, I had a discussion with a semi-leftie on the BBSs.

Good for you.

I asserted "media bias" and he, working in media, disagreed.

I used to be a broadcaster on a radio station. A long time ago.

He challenged me to give him an example and he would research the same example, independently.

News reporters (whether radio or newspapers) can slant their stories.
While at the same time being truthful.

For example, a reporter for Fox News and a reporter for CNN both
reporting the same story will tell it differently. But also being
truthful about the story itself.

So I provided him an example. True to his word, he took my example and independently researched it.

Sure. Anybody can review a story and decide what he wants.

The end result was that I didn't change his mind, but he admitted that he could find no flaw in my example. i.e. it certainly looked like media bias.

Reporting the news is reporting the news. All reporters do that.
Without bias is a misconception. All reporters slant their stories,
as it is impossible not to do so. However, that is *not* the same
as media bias.

That's how discussions work.

You made a claim. You have shown your inability to support or
substantiate that claim.

Both sides need to have an open mind and have to accept the fact that they might be wrong.

Your inability to accept the fact that you are wrong is duly noted.

And that's why "arguing" with Lefties is pointless: Lefties will NEVER admit that they are wrong.

Everybody knows you made an empty claim.
I realize how difficult it is to admit it.
But you did.
Whether you admit it, or not.

You made a claim. I asked you to back it up. You have shown
to all of us you have no credible evidence, and thus nothing
more than an empty claim.

--Lee

--
Every Bottom Needs A Top

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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On 17 May 2021, Ron Lauzon said the following...

They've already documented many cases of ballot mishandling (which are crimes) and the deletion of the database occured AFTER the subpoena was delivered. So it most certainly a crime.

By the way, the Arizona autitors have confirmed that no databases were
deleted. Apparently, when the election officials were told to supply the auditors with the server, they (gasp!) shut down the machine gracefully. The database in question was MS SQL Server, and as part of its graceful shutdown
it altered the timestamps on the databases. This was misconstrued by the auditors as evidence that the database had been deleted, which was
incompetent, to say the least.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 19 May 2021, Michael Mrak said the following...

18 May 21 10:19, you wrote to Ron Lauzon:

they're actually looking at. They're going in trying to prove that Trump won, and will not hesitate to twist the facts to support that conclusion. Maricopa County has already been audited three times, and no evidence of widespread voting fraud was found.

I perceive this almost as an unconditional "faith in leaders". I think that is a special feature that distinguishes "Trumpists".

Yep, authoritarianism. The right here is so afraid of communism/socialism, but completely ignore the authoritarian corruption that was the downfall of many communist/socialist states.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 18 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

There is no way to make your math work here.

Math is suppression.

That is the most ignorant statement I've heard in some time.

I agree. I was paraphrasing things I have seen and read elsewhere
regarding Math that I think are pretty ignorant.


* SLMR 2.1a * A seminar on Time Travel will be held 2 weeks ago....
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Having an ID, so you can prove that you are registered to vote, is not a hurdle that only certain groups of people face. Just because no one where you live used to care if you were registered or not does not make it a good practice.

It's a hurdle for people who don't have the right type of ID. Contrary to conservative messaging, it is possible to get by in the US today with no ID (and even go grocery shopping, despite Trump's ignorant remarks to the contrary).

Being able to get by in the US today, without being homeless or off the
grid, without an ID goes against my personal experience. I don't know
about anyone's messaging and potential fallacies they may contain. I have listed the several things you still need an ID for here before.

If you don't drive, buy liquor, buy guns, interact with the government at
all (including entering their buildings), get a COVID shot, fly, or
register to vote, maybe you don't need one. But, since you need one to register to vote (or were able to register when you are getting your license), that means you either needed or got one when you registered.

Not requiring ID doesn't mean that no one cares if one is registered or not. How on Earth did you jump to that absurd conclusion? Before photo ID was required, people were still required to register and identify themselves at the polls. They just didn't need ID to do so. This is not limited to my
area; how do you suppose people voted before the advent of photography and photo IDs?

I "jumped to" that conclusion by paying attention in history class. We
learned about the various issues associated with our early voting systems,
re: the shennanigans that unions, political machines, and other "special interests" got up to in the days before the advent of better identification.

Those "special interest" ironically included those same groups that were attempting to suppress votes from certain groups of people.

If you live in an area where they have "never" required any form of ID in
this time after the advent of photography and photo IDs, you must live in
an area where whether or not you are really registered does not matter much.

I live in a state that a lot of people think is backwards, but even we have kept up with the times and require a photo ID. We also use the available technology to read the barcodes on the back to determine which precinct
someone lives in. We aren't stuck with 100 year old tech and bad practices like you area is, I guess.

They didn't want themselves "put into a database somewhere." It's not surprising to me at all that Obama, Biden, and HRC would oppose voter suppression.

National ID and a photo ID are two different things.

Acquiring an acceptable ID is a hurdle for some people. Sources of fraud such as those you mention were handled well prior to the photo ID requirements.

Acquiring an ID is no more likely to be a hurdle than fraud is likely to
happen (as you claim). Both might happen but the percentage is low enough
that we can ignore the hurdles and the fraud and go on.

They did care whether one was registered or not, but photo ID was not required. Did you even vote before 2012? You act like photo ID has been on the books forever, but it has not. With photo ID being ostensibly an anti-fraud measure, you brought up fraud when you went beyond Michael's question of whether voters need to be registered or not.

Yes, I have voted for much longer than that. We always need a photo ID.
If you cannot or don't want to prove who you are when you go to vote, then registration doesn't matter.


* SLMR 2.1a * The bold print giveth and the fine print taketh away.
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It is a hurdle for some people to obtain the proper form of ID for voting. Not everyone uses these forms of ID on a daily basis. (Heck, I've used my driver's license less than 10 times in the past year!)

Did you drive more than 10 times, or are you admitting to driving without
one? Even with COVID I drove more than 10 times. I also had to use a
photo ID more than 10 times, even though I was rarely going out, including
when I went to vote in person in the general election.

If you don't ever need it, why don't you get rid of it and then see how
much trouble that causes you?

The only thing these rules truly impede is preventing those who are not eligible to vote from doing so.

That's where you are wrong. They prevent those who do not possess these types of ID from voting.

They do so no more than people commit fraud. If we can ignore the fraud percentage, we can ignore this percentage, too. It is too easy to get one
if one wants one. If you don't want one, that is your problem.


* SLMR 2.1a * Shh! Be vewy qwiet! I'm hunting wuntime ewwows!
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If a person can't get an ID (if you drive a car you have one) then they don't n
ed to be voting anyway. Stop with the naive messages that some people just can'
get a ID, by saying so your implying there to ignorant and if that is the case
they shouldn't be voting.

To drive, to buy liquor, to buy a gun, to enter a government building (or
just about any other interaction with the government), to get a COVID
shot, to fly, to REGISTER to vote... lots of things require it (unless you
are doing them illegally).

Jeff apparently doesn't seem to mind needing one to drive, but he doesn't
want to have to show it to vote.


* SLMR 2.1a * If all appears to go well, you missed something...
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On 19 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Math is suppression.

That is the most ignorant statement I've heard in some time.

I agree. I was paraphrasing things I have seen and read elsewhere regarding Math that I think are pretty ignorant.

Such as?

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 19 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

It's a hurdle for people who don't have the right type of ID. Contrary t conservative messaging, it is possible to get by in the US today with no (and even go grocery shopping, despite Trump's ignorant remarks to the contrary).

Being able to get by in the US today, without being homeless or off the grid, without an ID goes against my personal experience. I don't know about anyone's messaging and potential fallacies they may contain. I
have listed the several things you still need an ID for here before.

The only form of acceptable voter ID that I have is a drivers' license. I
could get by without that if I didn't drive.

If you don't drive, buy liquor, buy guns, interact with the government at all (including entering their buildings), get a COVID shot, fly, or register to vote, maybe you don't need one. But, since you need one to register to vote (or were able to register when you are getting your license), that means you either needed or got one when you registered.

In Texas, the last four digits of one's Social Security number are considered sufficient ID for registering to vote.

The types of ID required to vote are not required get a COVID shot.
Primarily, one only has to prove residency, not identity, in these cases.

One also does not need an ID to enter all government buildings; I can walk
into many government buildings offering services without presenting ID. Entering offices and other areas not normally involved in interacting with
the public, I do need an ID. So your statement here is somewhat misleading.

Flying and driving are not necessary to modern life, nor are they fundamental civil rights.

Likewise, guns and alcohol are not necessities, and one could easily live without them.

Not requiring ID doesn't mean that no one cares if one is registered or How on Earth did you jump to that absurd conclusion? Before photo ID was required, people were still required to register and identify themselves the polls. They just didn't need ID to do so. This is not limited to my area; how do you suppose people voted before the advent of photography a photo IDs?

I "jumped to" that conclusion by paying attention in history class. We learned about the various issues associated with our early voting
systems, re: the shennanigans that unions, political machines, and other "special interests" got up to in the days before the advent of better identification.

Those issues were identified and addressed long before there were
requirements for voter ID. Apparently, people did indeed care if one was registered or not before photo IDs were required. Saying that people who support photo ID requirements "care" about who is registered, while those who do not support photo ID requirements do not "care" is a false dichotomy.

Those "special interest" ironically included those same groups that were attempting to suppress votes from certain groups of people.

And those attempts were addressed without photo ID requirements, were they
not?

If you live in an area where they have "never" required any form of ID in this time after the advent of photography and photo IDs, you must live in an area where whether or not you are really registered does not matter much.

Again with the false dichotomy. They very much cared prior to photo ID requirements.

I live in a state that a lot of people think is backwards, but even we have kept up with the times and require a photo ID. We also use the available technology to read the barcodes on the back to determine which precinct someone lives in. We aren't stuck with 100 year old tech and
bad practices like you area is, I guess.

We require photo IDs as well, but that is a rather new development. Your statement that your state has "kept up with the times" is an admission that it's a fairly new development there, too. I don't know why you keep hemming
and hawing about how long it has been required.

They didn't want themselves "put into a database somewhere." It's not surprising to me at all that Obama, Biden, and HRC would oppose voter suppression.

National ID and a photo ID are two different things.

Not just any photo ID is required for voting; it must be state- or federally-issued.

Acquiring an acceptable ID is a hurdle for some people. Sources of fraud as those you mention were handled well prior to the photo ID requirement

Acquiring an ID is no more likely to be a hurdle than fraud is likely to happen (as you claim). Both might happen but the percentage is low
enough that we can ignore the hurdles and the fraud and go on.

And just ignore that certain people are being disenfranchised by the requirements? That is where we disagree.

They did care whether one was registered or not, but photo ID was not required. Did you even vote before 2012? You act like photo ID has been the books forever, but it has not. With photo ID being ostensibly an anti-fraud measure, you brought up fraud when you went beyond Michael's question of whether voters need to be registered or not.

Yes, I have voted for much longer than that. We always need a photo ID. If you cannot or don't want to prove who you are when you go to vote,
then registration doesn't matter.

Did you *need* a photo ID to vote prior to 2012?

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 19 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

It is a hurdle for some people to obtain the proper form of ID for votin Not everyone uses these forms of ID on a daily basis. (Heck, I've used m driver's license less than 10 times in the past year!)

Did you drive more than 10 times, or are you admitting to driving without one? Even with COVID I drove more than 10 times. I also had to use a photo ID more than 10 times, even though I was rarely going out,
including when I went to vote in person in the general election.

I said I've used it less than 10 times. I have not driven much at all. Groceries are delivered. I do have a driver's license, but I have not used it (or, in fact my whole wallet) very much at all. They have been sitting in a drawer. I did use have to use it when I voted, but since we're discussing
those things *other than* voting which require it, that one doesn't really count.

If you don't ever need it, why don't you get rid of it and then see how much trouble that causes you?

That's absurd.

The only thing these rules truly impede is preventing those who are eligible to vote from doing so.

That's where you are wrong. They prevent those who do not possess these of ID from voting.

They do so no more than people commit fraud. If we can ignore the fraud percentage, we can ignore this percentage, too. It is too easy to get
one if one wants one. If you don't want one, that is your problem.

Ignoring the inability of citizens to exercise their civil rights is a whole lot different from "ignoring" fraud, which we don't actually ignore, and
which we didn't actually ignore prior to voter ID requirements. Where's that evidence of widespread voter fraud again? In the database that was deleted
but then magically wasn't, is it?

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 19 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Jeff apparently doesn't seem to mind needing one to drive, but he doesn't want to have to show it to vote.

Jeff apparently is able to empathize with circumstances other than his own.
And you apparently are not.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Hello Jeff,

It is a hurdle for some people to obtain the proper form of ID for
voting. Not everyone uses these forms of ID on a daily basis. (Heck,
I've used my driver's license less than 10 times in the past year!)

If a person can't get an ID (if you drive a car you have one) then they don't need to be voting anyway.

Let's just allow rich people to vote. Those who drive expensive cars.
Or have chauffeurs drive them to vote in limousines. No more monkeys
who can only swing on trees. Only real people who can read and write.
And can at least pay their own way rather than mooch on others.

Stop with the naive messages that some people just can't get a ID, by saying
so your implying there to ignorant and if that is the case they shouldn't be voting.

They can always mug for the cameras and then bring a picture of their
own mug shot to vote.

--Lee

--
Donald Trump! Go away! Racist, sexist, anti-gay!

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Jeff!

19 May 21 10:16, you wrote to Mike Powell:

That is the most ignorant statement I've heard in some time.

I agree. I was paraphrasing things I have seen and read
elsewhere regarding Math that I think are pretty ignorant.

Such as?

There will be no substantive answer, but the discussion will move to the emotional.

Michael


--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
* Origin: Silent Chat Point (2:310/31.4)

Hello Jeff!

19 May 21 10:36, you wrote to Mike Powell:

Flying and driving are not necessary to modern life, nor are they fundamental civil rights.

Likewise, guns and alcohol are not necessities, and one could easily
live without them.

In the EU, there is the term "official photo ID". This is a group of identity documents that can be consulted for identification. Very common in our country are passport, driver's license or so-called official photo ID. Definitions of official photo ID are contained in various laws or regulations (e.g. Banking Act, Notary Act, Passport Act Implementing Regulation). The majority of these definitions state the following characteristics of an official photo ID:

- Document issued by a government authority
- Nonreplaceable, recognizable headshot of the person
- Required information: Name, Date of birth (some laws restrict this to include the date of birth only if required by the law of the issuing state), Signature of the person, Issuing authority

Michael
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
* Origin: Silent Chat Point (2:310/31.4)

On 20 May 2021, Michael Mrak said the following...

That is the most ignorant statement I've heard in some time.

I agree. I was paraphrasing things I have seen and read
elsewhere regarding Math that I think are pretty ignorant.

Such as?

There will be no substantive answer, but the discussion will move to the emotional.

Prediction noted.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 20 May 2021, Michael Mrak said the following...

In the EU, there is the term "official photo ID". This is a group of identity documents that can be consulted for identification. Very common in our country are passport, driver's license or so-called official
photo ID. Definitions of official photo ID are contained in various laws or regulations (e.g. Banking Act, Notary Act, Passport Act Implementing Regulation). The majority of these definitions state the following characteristics of an official photo ID:
- Document issued by a government authority
- Nonreplaceable, recognizable headshot of the person
- Required information: Name, Date of birth (some laws restrict this to include
the date of birth only if required by the law of the issuing state), Signature

There are a number of acceptable IDs listed out in the voter ID legislation (which varies in its details from state to state), but a driver's license and passport are on the list. It costs money to maintain a driver's license
and/or passport, not much but not much can be quite a lot if you don't have any.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Hello Jeff!

20 May 21 07:26, you wrote to me:

There are a number of acceptable IDs listed out in the voter ID legislation (which varies in its details from state to state), but a driver's license and passport are on the list. It costs money to
maintain a driver's license and/or passport, not much but not much can
be quite a lot if you don't have any.

Yes, that sounds plausible. I think there is a fundamental difference between Europe and the USA. Here, practically every citizen has a valid ID card. Therefore, this is not a barrier to voting.

Michael


--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
* Origin: Silent Chat Point (2:310/31.4)

[Referring to the case in which a Trump supporter illegally submitted a vote for his missing, presumed-murdered-by-said-Trump-supporter wife. The fraud
was caught and the vote was not counted, but the act was still illegal.]

Then he focuses your attention (rememeber that misdirection is a hallmark of Leftie arguments) on a non-example put forth as an exampl of the "occasional incident".

This was very much an example. How was it a non-example? Because the
vote was for Trump? Who's changing the narrative now?

You really don't want to answer these questions, do you?

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Those "special interest" ironically included those same groups that were attempting to suppress votes from certain groups of people.

And those attempts were addressed without photo ID requirements, were they not?

Here, they were addressed with photo ID.

We require photo IDs as well, but that is a rather new development. Your statement that your state has "kept up with the times" is an admission that it's a fairly new development there, too. I don't know why you keep hemming and hawing about how long it has been required.

Because someone keeps telling me that it has only been required here
since 2012 which is false.

And just ignore that certain people are being disenfranchised by the requirements? That is where we disagree.

If there are places where it is difficult to get a photo ID, those areas
need to make it easier. I am all for that. Maybe that is a good task for
all of the groups who go around encouraging people to register to vote...
make sure they have ID or help them find a way to easily get one.

Did you *need* a photo ID to vote prior to 2012?

YES we did! I have always needed one going back to the 1980's. They use
it to look me up in the register.


* SLMR 2.1a * It ain't over, but the fat lady is clearing her throat.
--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)

I said I've used it less than 10 times. I have not driven much at all.

But have you driven less than 10 times? Even if you didn't have to show it
to someone, you had to have it with you.

If you don't ever need it, why don't you get rid of it and then see how much trouble that causes you?

That's absurd.

No it isn't. You are the one that claims you don't need it for hardly anything, not me. If you don't really need it, get rid of it.

It is only absurd when one realizes that you DO need it more often than,
for the sake of arguement, you are willing to admit.


* SLMR 2.1a * Air pollution is a mist demeanor.
--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)

On 20 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Those "special interest" ironically included those same groups that attempting to suppress votes from certain groups of people.

And those attempts were addressed without photo ID requirements, were th not?

Here, they were addressed with photo ID.

How exactly did photo ID requirements address attempts to suppress votes? Generally speaking, photo ID requirements are intended to reduce "extra"
votes rather than add "missing" votes.

We require photo IDs as well, but that is a rather new development. Your statement that your state has "kept up with the times" is an admission t it's a fairly new development there, too. I don't know why you keep hemm and hawing about how long it has been required.

Because someone keeps telling me that it has only been required here
since 2012 which is false.

The first photo ID requirements were in Indiana in 2006. Were photo IDs *required* where you are prior to 2006 (which is still fairly recent)?

And just ignore that certain people are being disenfranchised by the requirements? That is where we disagree.

If there are places where it is difficult to get a photo ID, those areas need to make it easier. I am all for that. Maybe that is a good task
for all of the groups who go around encouraging people to register to vote... make sure they have ID or help them find a way to easily get one.

For what, to satiate your desire to eliminate widespread voter fraud for
which you have no evidence?

Did you *need* a photo ID to vote prior to 2012?

YES we did! I have always needed one going back to the 1980's. They use it to look me up in the register.

The first photo ID requirements were legislated in Indiana for the 2006 election. Prior to that, photo ID was not required to vote anywhere in the
US. It was accepted, of course, but not required.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 20 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

If you don't ever need it, why don't you get rid of it and then see much trouble that causes you?

That's absurd.

No it isn't. You are the one that claims you don't need it for hardly anything, not me. If you don't really need it, get rid of it.

It is absurd. I don't have to live without a driver's license to know that
it's possible to live without one.

It is only absurd when one realizes that you DO need it more often than, for the sake of arguement, you are willing to admit.

There are people who don't have driver's licenses that get along just fine.
As proof of this, there is an alternate state photo ID which is not a
driver's license, but is issued by the same agency. Why would such a thing exist if it were not possible to live without a driver's license? Needless to say, it's also possible to live without this alternate photo ID.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Hello Jeff,

Math is suppression.

That is the most ignorant statement I've heard in some time.

I agree. I was paraphrasing things I have seen and read elsewhere
regarding Math that I think are pretty ignorant.

Such as?

Let 1+1+2+3+4=5+6, then 1+1+4=6.
This is not specifically a math term, just common sense.

Found on some blog ...

--Lee

--
If it's not an iPhone, it's not an iPhone
--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Jeff,

Mike brings up a serious issue for some folks -

[..]

Being able to get by in the US today, without being homeless or off the
grid, without an ID goes against my personal experience. I don't know
about anyone's messaging and potential fallacies they may contain. I
have listed the several things you still need an ID for here before.

The only form of acceptable voter ID that I have is a drivers' license. I could get by without that if I didn't drive.

Not everybody has an "acceptable voter ID" - including ID's that are
valid for their designated purpose. Some folks are veterans, retired
from the military, and have a VA card. But not all states allow those
ID's as valid evidence as to who they are.

"Could be" is not enough. Voting is a right, not a privilege. If
rich folks want to vote, but deny everybody else the same right, let
them move so someplace where that is poassible.

Those days are long past in this country. Nobody should want to
return there.

--Lee

--
When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 20 May 2021, Lee Lofaso said the following...

I agree. I was paraphrasing things I have seen and read elsewhere
regarding Math that I think are pretty ignorant.

Such as?

Let 1+1+2+3+4=5+6, then 1+1+4=6.
This is not specifically a math term, just common sense.

Silly me, I assumed Mike was referring to something relevant to our
discussion.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 20 May 2021, Lee Lofaso said the following...

Not everybody has an "acceptable voter ID" - including ID's that are
valid for their designated purpose. Some folks are veterans, retired
from the military, and have a VA card. But not all states allow those
ID's as valid evidence as to who they are.

Yep, that was my point. But Mike here claims that his state has required
voters to present photo ID since at least the 1980s, which is very strange because there were no laws requiring such present in any US state prior to 2006. I think perhaps he's confusing his use of a driver's license to
identify himself at the polls prior to 2006 with some imaginary requirement that all voters were required to produce a photo ID in order to vote.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 20 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Those "special interest" ironically included those same groups that attempting to suppress votes from certain groups of people.

And those attempts were addressed without photo ID requirements, were th not?

Here, they were addressed with photo ID.

So, if you are correct, then one would expect that widespread voter fraud
would occur in states with no photo ID requirements, or even no ID
requirements at all, right? In fact, there are currently quite a few states
in one or the other of those groups. And yet, no evidence of widespread voter fraud has been found, in those states or any other. How do you explain that?

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 20 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

We require photo IDs as well, but that is a rather new development. Your statement that your state has "kept up with the times" is an admission t it's a fairly new development there, too. I don't know why you keep hemm and hawing about how long it has been required.

Because someone keeps telling me that it has only been required here
since 2012 which is false.

[...]

* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)

I assume from your Origin line that by "here" you mean Kentucky. A (very)
quick Google search turns up the fact that photo ID has only been required in Kentucky since SB 2 was signed into law in 2020. Prior to that, a non-photo
ID or personal aquaintance with the poll worker was all that was required.

https://elect.ky.gov/Frequently-Asked-Questions/Documents/SB%202%20FAQ.pdf

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Hello Michael,

In the EU, there is the term "official photo ID". This is a group of identity documents that can be consulted for identification. Very common in
our country are passport, driver's license or so-called official photo ID. Definitions of official photo ID are contained in various laws or regulations (e.g. Banking Act, Notary Act, Passport Act Implementing Regulation). The majority of these definitions state the following characteristics of an official photo ID:

Okay. Everybody has an official photo ID. Is this photo a local photo?
A country photo? Or a EU photo?

There are 50 states in the USA.
Would your "official photo ID" be the equivalent?
We have no national "official photo ID" - except a passport,
if that is your meaning. But most folks here do not have
a passport, or have a need to.

- Document issued by a government authority
- Nonreplaceable, recognizable headshot of the person
- Required information: Name, Date of birth (some laws restrict this to include the date of birth only if required by the law of the issuing state), Signature of the person, Issuing authority

So I take it there is no "national" or "European Union" photo ID.
Only the equivalent of a regional photo ID. Kind of like a drivers'
license, as issued by each individual state in the USA.

Lots of folks in the USA have no official photo ID of any kind.
Too poor, live on an Indian reservaton, etc. And yet they retain
the right to vote. Problem is, some states have made it impossible
for them to vote. And there is nothing those folks can do about it.

Voter suppression is a means of rigging the vote. Makes it easier
for candidates of one party to win rather than candidates of another
party.

So yes. It's true. "Widespread voter fraud" does exist.

--Lee

--
It's not for women.

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 18 May 2021, Dale Shipp said the following...

On 05-17-21 18:12, Gregory Deyss <=-
spoke to Jeff Thiele about Re: Voter fraud <=-

Unarmed blacks are killed by police at a disproportionately higher ra than whites.

How does this work when MORE whites are killed by Police then Blacks? There is no way to make your math work here.

The math is simple. As a simplified example, consider a case where
there are 1000 people with brown or black hair, and 100 with red hair,
in a certain city. Assume that 50 people with red hair are killed by police, and that 100 people with black or brown hair are killed by
police. It is true that more black and brown are killed, but the proportion of them is 10%. The proportion of those with red hair who
were killed is 50% -- hence those with red hair are killed at a disproportionately higher rate than those with black and brown hair.

That is a hypothetical example with made up numbers, but it illustrates what Jeff was saying -- which is true given the actual numbers in each case. I hope that this lets you understand.

His math does not work due to the fact that anything multiplied by zero is still zero. It's also illogical due the facts there more Whites People being killed by police. So if we follow Jeff's way of thinking there should be
at least some Whites that lash out and act out their frustrations on the innocent businesses, tear down statures and nearly burn down cities in a fit of unchecked rage. There is not one Conservative group or any such individual w/ Conservative values who behaves in such a way.

People who have not escaped their ghettos through a quality education are the ones doing this and fueling this nonsense. The Democratic Party has used
these people like pawns w/ every election cycle, some are beginning to awaken from their liberal slumber as there is plenty of subject matter with a Biden
/ Harris Whitehouse. It's been nothing but a disaster and it is not going to get any better.

. ______ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
_[]_³³Äij³ ³ Fidonet ³ ³FSX Net³ ³ God Bless ³ ³ Another Message ³
{ NET 267 ³ ³1:267/150³ ³21:1/127³ ³ America ³ ³ by Gregory ³
/ 00ÄÄÄÄ00'-¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄÄ00ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ00ÄÄÄÙ --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/64)
* Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)

Hello Lee!

21 May 21 00:21, you wrote to me:

Okay. Everybody has an official photo ID. Is this photo a local photo?
A country photo? Or a EU photo?

Since there is (unfortunately, but this is my personal opinion) still no "United States of Europe" but only a Union, which is connected by common treaties and certain common laws there are both: Photo ID for people with EU citizenship. And identity cards documenting the nationality of EU citizens (e.g. passport).

It is a bit complicated, the EU has been growing together for only 60 years. In the EU there is freedom of travel and freedom of establishment, i.e. I could always move from Austria to Germany and live, work and pay taxes there.

In national elections or when the president of an EU country is elected, of course only citizens of the respective country are allowed to vote. In municipal elections and in the EU election (for the EU Parliament) all EU citizens may vote, no matter in which state they are currently resident.

Important in all this: You are automatically registered in an electoral register and must (of course) identify yourself at the election with an official photo ID.

Would your "official photo ID" be the equivalent?
We have no national "official photo ID" - except a passport,
if that is your meaning. But most folks here do not have
a passport, or have a need to.

See above. Whereas in the EU almost every citizen has a passport, because otherwise he can not travel to other EU countries. As I said, it is a different legal construct compared to the USA.

So I take it there is no "national" or "European Union" photo ID.
Only the equivalent of a regional photo ID. Kind of like a drivers' license, as issued by each individual state in the USA.

The driving license is already a uniformly formatted document in all EU states. It is also valid in all EU countries.

Lots of folks in the USA have no official photo ID of any kind.
Too poor, live on an Indian reservaton, etc. And yet they retain
the right to vote. Problem is, some states have made it impossible
for them to vote. And there is nothing those folks can do about it.

But on a purely technical note, how are they identified in the election?

Voter suppression is a means of rigging the vote. Makes it easier
for candidates of one party to win rather than candidates of another party.

I understand the problem. This does not exist in this form in the EU, because practically every citizen has a photo ID. The best solution for both the right to political participation and to ensure the identification of the person would probably be to create a simple and low-threshold access to provide every citizen with an official photo ID. But this is probably not easy to implement in the historical context.

Michael


--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
* Origin: Silent Chat Point (2:310/31.4)

On 05-20-21 21:26, Gregory Deyss <=-
spoke to Dale Shipp about Re: Voter fraud <=-

There is no way to make your math work here.

The math is simple. As a simplified example, consider a case where

<<SNIP>>

His math does not work due to the fact that anything multiplied by
zero is still zero.

Where is there a zero?

It's also illogical due the facts there more Whites
People being killed by police. So if we follow Jeff's way of thinking there should be at least some Whites that lash out and act out their frustrations on the innocent businesses, tear down statures and nearly burn down cities in a fit of
unchecked rage. There is not one Conservative group or any such
individual w/ Conservative values who behaves in such a way.

I don't know the reason why that might not be. The reason that blacks
are angry is because of the culture that has resulted in unnessary
killings of blacks by police -- over a period of years.

People who have not escaped their ghettos through a quality education
are the ones doing this and fueling this nonsense.

Some of the unjustified killings are of blacks who are well off in
society -- not all are from "ghettos". You are jumping to conclusions
because of your biased perception.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)



... Shipwrecked in Silver Spring, Maryland. 00:34:01, 21 May 2021
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

On 20 May 2021, Gregory Deyss said the following...

That is a hypothetical example with made up numbers, but it illustrat what Jeff was saying -- which is true given the actual numbers in eac case. I hope that this lets you understand.

His math does not work due to the fact that anything multiplied by zero
is still zero. It's also illogical due the facts there more Whites
People being killed by police. So if we follow Jeff's way of thinking there should be at least some Whites that lash out and act out their frustrations on the innocent businesses, tear down statures and nearly burn down cities in a fit of unchecked rage. There is not one
Conservative group or any such individual w/ Conservative values who behaves in such a way.

How about the January 6 insurrection?

People who have not escaped their ghettos through a quality education
are the ones doing this and fueling this nonsense. The Democratic Party

That is quite the racist assumption there.

are the ones doing this and fueling this nonsense. The Democratic Party has used these people like pawns w/ every election cycle, some are

The Democratic party is not killing unarmed blacks, nor are they trying to protect those who do. You're looking for a scapegoat.

beginning to awaken from their liberal slumber as there is plenty of subject matter with a Biden / Harris Whitehouse. It's been nothing but a disaster and it is not going to get any better.

Ah, the old #WalkAway. It wasn't true before (Trump lost the election by more than 7 million votes), and it's no less imaginary now. Just because you're unhappy with Trump's loss doesn't mean that everyone is, not by a long shot. You're in the minority here.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 21 May 2021, Jeff Thiele said the following...

On 20 May 2021, Gregory Deyss said the following...

That is a hypothetical example with made up numbers, but it illu what Jeff was saying -- which is true given the actual numbers i case. I hope that this lets you understand.

His math does not work due to the fact that anything multiplied by ze is still zero. It's also illogical due the facts there more Whites People being killed by police. So if we follow Jeff's way of thinking there should be at least some Whites that lash out and act out their frustrations on the innocent businesses, tear down statures and nearl burn down cities in a fit of unchecked rage. There is not one Conservative group or any such individual w/ Conservative values who behaves in such a way.

How about the January 6 insurrection?

Insurrection? Depends on how you would look at what happened, I have heard
from many politicians on that day, suggesting that *THIS* is not who we are,
I disagree this is EXACTLY who we are. It could of been far worse if it was real, there are too many obvious things wrong to make it to be convincing,
such as there just happened to be items of aid placed on the grounds before this insurrection as you have called it. Yes people died including a cop and
it has been determined for some time now that none of the individuals at the this event had anything to do with the one officers death, but these were
quick to rush assessments made at time and the fact are now known that it is NOT the case. I do believe on officer committed suicide as well.
Lot of passionate people out there, I am sure you have seen the Trump rallies throughout the Nation and even in your home state of Texas, they were
colossal in nature compared to the six people or so at a Biden get together, when Joe was not in his basement.

People who have not escaped their ghettos through a quality education are the ones doing this and fueling this nonsense. The Democratic Part

That is quite the racist assumption there.

are the ones doing this and fueling this nonsense. The Democratic Part has used these people like pawns w/ every election cycle, some are

The Democratic party is not killing unarmed blacks, nor are they trying
to protect those who do. You're looking for a scapegoat.

beginning to awaken from their liberal slumber as there is plenty of subject matter with a Biden / Harris Whitehouse. It's been nothing but disaster and it is not going to get any better.

Ah, the old #WalkAway. It wasn't true before (Trump lost the election by more than 7 million votes), and it's no less imaginary now. Just because you're unhappy with Trump's loss doesn't mean that everyone is, not by a long shot. You're in the minority here.

Not a walkaway, there are people are starting to wake up. I am not a minority here at all there are millions of people just like me, imagine that...

. ______ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
_[]_³³Äij³ ³ Fidonet ³ ³FSX Net³ ³ God Bless ³ ³ Another Message ³
{ NET 267 ³ ³1:267/150³ ³21:1/127³ ³ America ³ ³ by Gregory ³
/ 00ÄÄÄÄ00'-¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄÄ00ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ00ÄÄÄÙ --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/64)
* Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)

On 21 May 2021, Gregory Deyss said the following...

burn down cities in a fit of unchecked rage. There is not one Conservative group or any such individual w/ Conservative values behaves in such a way.

How about the January 6 insurrection?

Insurrection? Depends on how you would look at what happened, I have
heard from many politicians on that day, suggesting that *THIS* is not
who we are, I disagree this is EXACTLY who we are. It could of been far

They caused property damage to the Capitol. It was an armed insurrection.

who we are, I disagree this is EXACTLY who we are. It could of been far worse if it was real, there are too many obvious things wrong to make it to be convincing, such as there just happened to be items of aid placed
on the grounds before this insurrection as you have called it. Yes

So you're saying the entire thing was staged? Does this include the
evacuation of Congress? I can see how you would go there to avoid admitting that white conservatives did this, but really, man?

people died including a cop and it has been determined for some time now that none of the individuals at the this event had anything to do with
the one officers death, but these were quick to rush assessments made at time and the fact are now known that it is NOT the case. I do believe on

Officer Sicknick was struck in the head by the insurrectionists and later
died. That he did not die on the scene is irrelevant; he died from injuries sustained at the insurrection. And death is not the only measure of violence: Many received very real injuries.

officer committed suicide as well. Lot of passionate people out there, I

Yes, he did.

am sure you have seen the Trump rallies throughout the Nation and even
in your home state of Texas, they were colossal in nature compared to
the six people or so at a Biden get together, when Joe was not in his basement.

So these "lots of passionate people" staged an insurrection? Also, lots of passionate people gave Biden 7 million more votes than Trump. It was this passion that the insurrection was intended to reverse.

Ah, the old #WalkAway. It wasn't true before (Trump lost the election more than 7 million votes), and it's no less imaginary now. Just becau you're unhappy with Trump's loss doesn't mean that everyone is, not by long shot. You're in the minority here.

Not a walkaway, there are people are starting to wake up. I am not a minority here at all there are millions of people just like me, imagine that...

Your presidential candidate lost by 7 million votes. That puts you squarely
in the minority. It doesn't matter how many of you there are; if there are
less of you than there are of some other group, you're in the minority. Your math skills are failing you again.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 22 May 2021, Jeff Thiele said the following...

Officer Sicknick was struck in the head by the insurrectionists and later died. That he did not die on the scene is irrelevant; he died from injuries sustained at the insurrection. And death is not the only
measure of violence: Many received very real injuries.

Look at cause of death, it states that none of the events on Jan 6th had anything to do with his death, you're attempting to apply blood to the
hands through the use of confusion and perversion of which is very dishonest.

Your presidential candidate lost by 7 million votes. That puts you squarely in the minority. It doesn't matter how many of you there are;
if there are less of you than there are of some other group, you're in
the minority. Your math skills are failing you again.

We shall see how faulty my math skills are if at all in the next Presidential election.
I'm trying to break your fall, so you don't hit the truth at 343 m per second. You could have advanced knowledge, so you know what is to come. No Matter, You'll found out, soon enough.

. ______ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
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{ NET 267 ³ ³1:267/150³ ³21:1/127³ ³ America ³ ³ by Gregory ³
/ 00ÄÄÄÄ00'-¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄÄ00ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ00ÄÄÄÙ

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/64)
* Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)

Hello Gregory!

22 May 21 13:22, you wrote to Jeff Thiele:

On 22 May 2021, Jeff Thiele said the following...

Officer Sicknick was struck in the head by the insurrectionists
and later died. That he did not die on the scene is irrelevant;
he died from injuries sustained at the insurrection. And death is
not the only measure of violence: Many received very real
injuries.

Look at cause of death, it states that none of the events on Jan 6th
had anything to do with his death, you're attempting to apply blood to
the hands through the use of confusion and perversion of which is very dishonest.

Sicknick initially text-messaged his brother in the night after the storming of the Capitol, reporting that he had been twice attacked with pepper spray and was "in good shape". Shortly before 10 p.m., however, Sicknick collapsed after he had returned to his division office, within the Capitol.

Sicknick was taken to a hospital in the D.C. area, and his condition apparently deteriorated. He suffered a stroke caused by a blood clot, and was surviving on a ventilator. Sicknick died around 9:30 p.m. on January 7. Family members had not yet arrived at the hospital when he died.

The peaceful Trumpists, of course, have nothing whatsoever to do with this .....

Michael


--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
* Origin: Silent Chat Point (2:310/31.4)

Hello Gregory!

22 May 21 13:22, you wrote to Jeff Thiele:

On 22 May 2021, Jeff Thiele said the following...

We shall see how faulty my math skills are if at all in the next Presidential election. I'm trying to break your fall, so you don't
hit the truth at 343 m per second. You could have advanced knowledge,
so you know what is to come. No Matter, You'll found out, soon enough.

What exactly do you mean by that? What flies at 343 m per second? What will he find out?

Michael
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
* Origin: Silent Chat Point (2:310/31.4)

On 22 May 2021, Gregory Deyss said the following...

Officer Sicknick was struck in the head by the insurrectionists and l died. That he did not die on the scene is irrelevant; he died from injuries sustained at the insurrection. And death is not the only measure of violence: Many received very real injuries.

Look at cause of death, it states that none of the events on Jan 6th had anything to do with his death, you're attempting to apply blood to the hands through the use of confusion and perversion of which is very dishonest.

He died of a stroke after being hit in the head.

Your presidential candidate lost by 7 million votes. That puts you squarely in the minority. It doesn't matter how many of you there are if there are less of you than there are of some other group, you're i the minority. Your math skills are failing you again.

We shall see how faulty my math skills are if at all in the next Presidential election.

Yes, we shall.

I'm trying to break your fall, so you don't hit the truth at 343 m per second. You could have advanced knowledge, so you know what is to come.
No Matter, You'll found out, soon enough.

I really appreciate the advance knowledge you provided prior to the 2020 election, by the way.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Gregory Deyss wrote to Jeff Thiele <=-

Look at cause of death, it states that none of the events on Jan 6th
had anything to do with his death, you're attempting to apply blood to
the hands through the use of confusion and perversion of which is very dishonest.

Using facts on Lefties doesn't work. They either ignore or evade any fact that contridicts their Narrative.


... Live long and prosper... But don't let the IRS know.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
* Origin: Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 (1:275/89)

Hello Greg,

Not a walkaway, there are people are starting to wake up. I am not a minority
here at all there are millions of people just like me, imagine that...

Danger Will Robinson! Danger! The Walking Dead are here!

--Lee

--
The more you play with it the harder it gets

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Using facts on Lefties doesn't work. They either ignore or evade any
fact that contridicts their Narrative.

Yea! Gregory, forget about facts; try using food stamps or something shiny to prove your points to liberals.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: CompuBBS | Ashburn VA | cfbbs.scinet-ftn.org (1:275/99)

Officer Sicknick was struck in the head by the insurrectionists and later died. That he did not die on the scene is irrelevant; he died from injuries sustained at the insurrection. And death is not the only
measure of violence: Many received very real injuries.

Look at cause of death, it states that none of the events on Jan 6th had anything to do with his death, you're attempting to apply blood to the
hands through the use of confusion and perversion of which is very dishonest.

Not sure who hit this particular officer but there are plenty of photos and video that shows that not all of the people swinging baseball bats (and the like) were white. I point this out because there seems to be an
intermingling in this echo and this discussion with the terms "Republicans/ insurrectionists/Trumpsters/white-supremacists." Unless they've become a lot more accepting than I could ever imagine, I tend to think the last one
excludes people who are not white.

In other words, I don't think some of those words are the synonyms that
they are being passed off as.


* SLMR 2.1a * Man who fights with wife all day gets no piece at night.
--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)

Sicknick initially text-messaged his brother in the night after the storming of
the Capitol, reporting that he had been twice attacked with pepper spray and wa
"in good shape". Shortly before 10 p.m., however, Sicknick collapsed after he h
ad returned to his division office, within the Capitol.

Sicknick was taken to a hospital in the D.C. area, and his condition apparently
deteriorated. He suffered a stroke caused by a blood clot, and was surviving on
a ventilator. Sicknick died around 9:30 p.m. on January 7. Family members had n
t yet arrived at the hospital when he died.

Being pepper sprayed wouldn't cause a blood clot or stroke. Someone else
here indicated he was also hit in the head. That could cause bruising and clotting. That being the case, I wonder why he didn't mention being hit in
the head to his brother?

The peaceful Trumpists, of course, have nothing whatsoever to do with this ....

Maybe I am mistaken, but I seem to recall the other day where you told
someone here that using the term leftist, or lefty, was derisive. So is
the term Trumpist. Since that is mostly an American term, I thought it
might be good to point that out.

I personally believe that what happened that day was violent and uncalled
for. I also believe that what was happening in places like Portland and Seattle during the Summer of 2020 (and longer) was often violent and
certainly uncalled for. There are many who want to draw some distiction between the two, often (but as you can see, not always!!) justifying the
Summer violence as something different. I personally don't see it.


* SLMR 2.1a * He who takes credit for rain will be blamed for drought.
--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)

On 22 May 2021, Michael Mrak said the following...

Hello Gregory!

22 May 21 13:22, you wrote to Jeff Thiele:

On 22 May 2021, Jeff Thiele said the following...

Officer Sicknick was struck in the head by the insurrectionists
and later died. That he did not die on the scene is irrelevant;
he died from injuries sustained at the insurrection. And death is
not the only measure of violence: Many received very real
injuries.

Look at cause of death, it states that none of the events on Jan 6th had anything to do with his death, you're attempting to apply blood t the hands through the use of confusion and perversion of which is ver dishonest.

Sicknick initially text-messaged his brother in the night after the storming of

the Capitol, reporting that he had been twice attacked with pepper spray and was "in good shape". Shortly before 10 p.m., however, Sicknick collapsed after he had returned to his division office, within the Capitol.

Sicknick was taken to a hospital in the D.C. area, and his condition apparently

deteriorated. He suffered a stroke caused by a blood clot, and was surviving on

a ventilator. Sicknick died around 9:30 p.m. on January 7. Family
members had not yet arrived at the hospital when he died.

The peaceful Trumpists, of course, have nothing whatsoever to do with
this .....

I choose to go by the facts, as these can be used to reveal the Truth.
You're assumptions, are a whole lot of nothing fueled by liberal innuendo as well as your contemptuous attitude towards President Trump of which is based on your delusional democratic mindset. As it is extremely obvious to read.

. ______ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
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{ NET 267 ³ ³1:267/150³ ³21:1/127³ ³ America ³ ³ by Gregory ³
/ 00ÄÄÄÄ00'-¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄÄ00ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ00ÄÄÄÙ

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/64)
* Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)

On 22 May 2021, Michael Mrak said the following...

We shall see how faulty my math skills are if at all in the next Presidential election. I'm trying to break your fall, so you don't hit the truth at 343 m per second. You could have advanced knowledge, so you know what is to come. No Matter, You'll found out, soon enough

What flies at 343 m per second?

Speed of Sound.

. ______ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
_[]_³³Äij³ ³ Fidonet ³ ³FSX Net³ ³ God Bless ³ ³ Another Message ³
{ NET 267 ³ ³1:267/150³ ³21:1/127³ ³ America ³ ³ by Gregory ³
/ 00ÄÄÄÄ00'-¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄÄ00ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ00ÄÄÄÙ

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/64)
* Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)

Hello Gregory!

23 May 21 10:49, you wrote to me:

I choose to go by the facts, as these can be used to reveal the Truth.

What facts do You mean? Alternative facts?

You're assumptions, are a whole lot of nothing fueled by liberal
innuendo as well as your contemptuous attitude towards President Trump
of which is based on your delusional democratic mindset. As it is extremely obvious to read.

You know the saying: arguing with stupid people is like playing chess with a pigeon: No matter how well you play chess, the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, poop on the board, and prance around as if it had won. Meanwhile, every discussion with you feels like that - regardless of your intelligence, which of course I don't know.

Michael


--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
* Origin: Silent Chat Point (2:310/31.4)

I choose to go by the facts, as these can be used to reveal the Truth

What facts do You mean? Alternative facts?

You're assumptions, are a whole lot of nothing fueled by liberal innuendo as well as your contemptuous attitude towards President Trum of which is based on your delusional democratic mindset. As it is extremely obvious to read.

You know the saying: arguing with stupid people is like playing chess
with a pigeon: No matter how well you play chess, the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, poop on the board, and prance around as if it had won. Meanwhile, every discussion with you feels like that - regardless
of your intelligence, which of course I don't know.

Like a pigeon you, will scatter when challenged as you already seem to walking about without a destination, just like the pigeon.

. ______ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
_[]_³³Äij³ ³ Fidonet ³ ³FSX Net³ ³ God Bless ³ ³ Another Message ³
{ NET 267 ³ ³1:267/150³ ³21:1/127³ ³ America ³ ³ by Gregory ³
/ 00ÄÄÄÄ00'-¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄ00ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ00ÄÙ¨€ÀÄÄ00ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ00ÄÄÄÙ --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/64)
* Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)

Hello Mike!

23 May 21 10:01, you wrote to me:

The peaceful Trumpists, of course, have nothing whatsoever to do with
this ....

Maybe I am mistaken, but I seem to recall the other day where you told someone here that using the term leftist, or lefty, was derisive. So
is the term Trumpist. Since that is mostly an American term, I
thought it might be good to point that out.

The violence was preceded by a protest rally of tens of thousands of Trump supporters who had gathered near the White House at noon on January 6 for the so-called Save America March. That's a fact! At it, the president truthfully claimed that his defeat was due to election rigging by the Democratic Party. He urged his supporters to march with him to the Capitol to get Congress to revoke the Electoral College vote that was unfavorable to him. That is also a fact!

So there were probably no Biden supporters there. And Trump's call via Twitter "Be there, will be wild!" was probably relatively clear. I agree, probably 90% of the "demonstrators" there were simply blinded and incited. The violent (as so often a minority) but then ultimately incited the mob further and the storm was also live (even on FOX News) to see. Who, if not Trump supporters should have been there? The Republicans will not succeed in rewriting history on this point.

I personally believe that what happened that day was violent and
uncalled for. I also believe that what was happening in places like Portland and Seattle during the Summer of 2020 (and longer) was often violent and certainly uncalled for.

I agree with you 100%. However, the trigger for these protests was not a US president but (once again) assaults on a black fellow human being. White police officer Derek Chauvin publicly killed 46-year-old African-American George Perry Floyd, who was lying on the ground, by kneeling on his neck with his full body weight for nine minutes and 29 seconds, squeezing the air out of him until he died, despite numerous pleas from Floyd and surrounding witnesses. Three other police officers involved did not intervene.

The angry reaction of the mob (in this case the black mob) is unacceptable. But the cause is entirely different.

A statesman de-escalates such situations, he sees himself as a link for all citizens. To my knowledge, this did not happen either. Sad.

Michael


--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
* Origin: Silent Chat Point (2:310/31.4)

On 23 May 2021, Gregory Deyss said the following...

I choose to go by the facts, as these can be used to reveal the

What facts do You mean? Alternative facts?

You're assumptions, are a whole lot of nothing fueled by liberal innuendo as well as your contemptuous attitude towards President of which is based on your delusional democratic mindset. As it i extremely obvious to read.

You know the saying: arguing with stupid people is like playing chess with a pigeon: No matter how well you play chess, the pigeon will kno over all the pieces, poop on the board, and prance around as if it ha won. Meanwhile, every discussion with you feels like that - regardles of your intelligence, which of course I don't know.

Like a pigeon you, will scatter when challenged as you already seem to walking about without a destination, just like the pigeon.

That would be the sound of a pigeon prancing around as if it had won.

You have presented no facts, Gregory. It is you who peddles in
baseless innuendo.

Here is a factcheck of one of Lindell's videos. The claims in it have been debunked, and many were already debunked by the time the video was released. https://www.factcheck.org/2021/02/mypillow-ceos-video-rehashes-debunked-electio n-fraud-claims/

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 22 May 2021, Ron Lauzon said the following...

Look at cause of death, it states that none of the events on Jan 6th had anything to do with his death, you're attempting to apply blood t the hands through the use of confusion and perversion of which is ver dishonest.

It doesn't state that at all. Causes of death don't say, "This had absolutely nothing to do with the events of January 6" or whatever. That's not how
causes of death are documented. He died of a stroke after being hit in the
head by an insurrectionist. Sometimes people don't die instantly, but die
later from injuries received.

Using facts on Lefties doesn't work. They either ignore or evade any
fact that contridicts their Narrative.

And there's Ron, projecting again.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Hello Jeff!

24 May 21 09:24, you wrote to Gregory Deyss:

Here is a factcheck of one of Lindell's videos. The claims in it have
been debunked, and many were already debunked by the time the video
was released. https://www.factcheck.org/2021/02/mypillow-ceos-video-rehashes-debunke d-electio n-fraud-claims/

I fear the information from the University of Pennsylvania will be nothing more than communist left-left propaganda to some, probably including Gregory. Because they do not provide "alternative facts".

Pardon my cynicism, it is just frustrating to read what some people have in their heads.

Michael


--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
* Origin: Silent Chat Point (2:310/31.4)

Hello Michael,

We shall see how faulty my math skills are if at all in the next
Presidential election. I'm trying to break your fall, so you don't
hit the truth at 343 m per second. You could have advanced knowledge,
so you know what is to come. No Matter, You'll found out, soon enough.

What exactly do you mean by that? What flies at 343 m per second? What will
he find out?

A stray cat.

--Lee

--
Our Nuts, Your Mouth

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 23 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Being pepper sprayed wouldn't cause a blood clot or stroke. Someone else here indicated he was also hit in the head. That could cause bruising and clotting. That being the case, I wonder why he didn't mention being hit in the head to his brother?

It was me that mentioned that and, after checking, I'll admit that I was
wrong about that.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 23 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Not sure who hit this particular officer but there are plenty of photos and video that shows that not all of the people swinging baseball bats (and the like) were white. I point this out because there seems to be an intermingling in this echo and this discussion with the terms "Republicans/ insurrectionists/Trumpsters/white-supremacists." Unless they've become a lot more accepting than I could ever imagine, I tend to think the last one excludes people who are not white.

The insurrectionists who stormed the Capitol were overwhelmingly white. Many
of them have been arrested, and data indicates that they tended to be longtime Trump supporters, including GOP donors, Republican Party members, white supremacists, far-right militants, QAnon believers, and members of the military.

Another interesting statistic is that they did not tend to come from counties that supported Trump. Overwhelmingly, they came from blue counties that Biden won comfortably and which had recently undergone a significant decline in non-Hispanic white population. It seems that a combination of their presidential candidate losing the election plus a fear of losing their local white majorities made them very upset, upset enough to attack their own government.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 22 May 2021, Gregory Deyss said the following...

Officer Sicknick was struck in the head by the insurrectionists and l died. That he did not die on the scene is irrelevant; he died from injuries sustained at the insurrection. And death is not the only measure of violence: Many received very real injuries.

Look at cause of death, it states that none of the events on Jan 6th had anything to do with his death, you're attempting to apply blood to the hands through the use of confusion and perversion of which is very dishonest.

I was wrong about Officer Sicknick being struck in the head. However, at
least 15 officers were injured while being attacked with a fire extinguisher and American flag, among other objects. At least 3 were hit in the head. The insurrectionists were violent and that violence was directed toward the
Capitol police. Again, death is not the only measure of violence.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

I personally believe that what happened that day was violent and uncalled for. I also believe that what was happening in places like Portland and Seattle during the Summer of 2020 (and longer) was often violent and certainly uncalled for.

I agree with you 100%. However, the trigger for these protests was not a US pr
ident but (once again) assaults on a black fellow human being.

Not correct. The issues in the US Pacific Northwest, although they seemed
to become more violent last Summer, predate the incident in Minneapolis
that you speak of.

The angry reaction of the mob (in this case the black mob) is unacceptable. Bu
the cause is entirely different.

No, not really. In many cases, I would go as far as to say that while the initial violence of this Summer may have started with "the black mob," as
you call them, the violence was perpetuated by those who likely have little interest in what happened to George Floyd and every interest in
perpetuating unrest. Most protests directly related to Floyd, and others, after the initial ones were fairly peaceful.

There was also the group that set fires in Washington, DC, shortly after the "insurrection," but as those were not set by the alleged "insurrectionists"/conservatives/"right-wingers." they seemed to be forgotten quickly.

A statesman de-escalates such situations, he sees himself as a link for all ci
zens. To my knowledge, this did not happen either. Sad.

Obama did little of nothing to de-escalate similar protests while he was President (see Ferguson, Missouri). It will be interesting to see how
Biden handles similar issues, should they come up.


* SLMR 2.1a * sophisticated, adj. deprived of its native simplicity.
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On 24 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

I personally believe that what happened that day was violent and uncalled for. I also believe that what was happening in places lik Portland and Seattle during the Summer of 2020 (and longer) was oft violent and certainly uncalled for.

I agree with you 100%. However, the trigger for these protests was not a pr
ident but (once again) assaults on a black fellow human being.

Not correct. The issues in the US Pacific Northwest, although they
seemed to become more violent last Summer, predate the incident in Minneapolis that you speak of.

Police assaults on unarmed black fellow human beings also predate the
incident in Minneapolis. BLM has been around since 2013.

The angry reaction of the mob (in this case the black mob) is unacceptab Bu
the cause is entirely different.

No, not really. In many cases, I would go as far as to say that while
the initial violence of this Summer may have started with "the black
mob," as you call them, the violence was perpetuated by those who likely have little interest in what happened to George Floyd and every interest in perpetuating unrest. Most protests directly related to Floyd, and others, after the initial ones were fairly peaceful.

They will tell you why they are protesting. They will carry signs that tell
you why they're protesting. But by all means, demonize them by attributing
your own motives to them.

There was also the group that set fires in Washington, DC, shortly after the "insurrection," but as those were not set by the alleged "insurrectionists"/conservatives/"right-wingers." they seemed to be forgotten quickly.

Armed insurrection kind of takes the cake, don't you think?

A statesman de-escalates such situations, he sees himself as a link for ci
zens. To my knowledge, this did not happen either. Sad.

Obama did little of nothing to de-escalate similar protests while he was President (see Ferguson, Missouri). It will be interesting to see how Biden handles similar issues, should they come up.

Obama urged an end to the violence. He didn't invoke martial law, either, but contrary to conservative demonizations of him, that wasn't really his style.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 24 May 2021, Jeff Thiele said the following...

That would be the sound of a pigeon prancing around as if it had won.

A rat with wings wins nothing.

You have presented no facts, Gregory. It is you who peddles in
baseless innuendo.

Here is a factcheck of one of Lindell's videos. The claims in it have
been debunked, and many were already debunked by the time the video was released. https://www.factcheck.org/2021/02/mypillow-ceos-video-rehashes-debunked-el

Who are these people doing the so called "fact checking" do they lean to the left or right? They should not lean in either direction, when the matter is specifically speaking of fact checking.

I simply asked the following question, in a bing.com search.
which way does factcheck.org lean?
To prove my point look at this.
https://tinyurl.com/6yf6v4ab

Which is turn suggests, that it is not debunked as indicated.

Of course I would want to know who these persons or group of people are before I dismiss it as debunked. Facebook fact checking is a complete disgrace and
is dismissed immediately as I am very skeptical, for whom facebook is and the direction which they lean and the agenda that want to convince others of. It's blatantly obvious. I can tell you that there are plenty that suggest there is "Nothing to see here" - Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. Most of those people are on the left as a matter of fact.
Why? It is obvious that they they want to conceal the real truth from escaping the darkness because for when it's exposed to the light the truth becomes revealed even the intention behind its intended concealment comes into focus.

. ______ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
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* Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)

On 24 May 2021, Gregory Deyss said the following...

That would be the sound of a pigeon prancing around as if it had won.

A rat with wings wins nothing.

That would be a bat.

You have presented no facts, Gregory. It is you who peddles in baseless innuendo.
Here is a factcheck of one of Lindell's videos. The claims in it have been debunked, and many were already debunked by the time the video w released. https://www.factcheck.org/2021/02/mypillow-ceos-video-rehashes-debunk

Who are these people doing the so called "fact checking" do they lean to the left or right? They should not lean in either direction, when the matter is specifically speaking of fact checking.

They do strive to be impartial, and do not inject personal beliefs into their fact-checks, hence "fact-check." They research and document why the claim is true, false, or somewhere inbetween, and include the facts that they found in their rebuttal. If you only look at the headlines, that's misleading. You need to read the whole fact-check to find out how they arrived at the conclusion(s) that they did.

For example, Lindell might say, "We have footage of people carrying cases of ballots out of the building." Are they really cases of ballots? Can any
ballots be seen? Are there any marking on the cases to indicate what's
inside? Are there any insignia on the individuals carrying the cases or the vehicles that the cases are being put into that might help identify what is
in the cases? Can we contact the people carrying the cases and find out
what's in them? Lindell asks none of the questions, because that's not in his best interest. The cases can contain nothing but ballots, he's sure of it. Fact-checkers look deeper.

I simply asked the following question, in a bing.com search.
which way does factcheck.org lean?
To prove my point look at this.
https://tinyurl.com/6yf6v4ab

The sources claiming that factcheck.org leans liberal are themselves biased.
It is true that there are more fact-checks of conservative talking points,
but that could also mean that conservatives are more prone to stretch the
truth (which is true).

Again, read the facts that they present. The facts are not biased.

Which is turn suggests, that it is not debunked as indicated.

It is very much debunked. Read the facts, not just the headlines.

Of course I would want to know who these persons or group of people are before I dismiss it as debunked. Facebook fact checking is a complete disgrace and is dismissed immediately as I am very skeptical, for whom facebook is and the direction which they lean and the agenda that want
to convince others of. It's blatantly obvious. I can tell you that there are plenty that suggest there is "Nothing to see here" - Pay no
attention to that man behind the curtain. Most of those people are on
the left as a matter of fact. Why? It is obvious that they they want to conceal the real truth from escaping the darkness because for when it's exposed to the light the truth becomes revealed even the intention
behind its intended concealment comes into focus.

Much of the disinformation on facebook is conservative-leaning, thanks in no small part to the Russian propaganda farms. That facebook tends to fact-check conservatives more than liberals relates again to the fact that conservatives are more dishonest in their information. For whatever reason, they tend to think that opinions are just as valid as facts and sorry, that's not true.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Gregory Deyss wrote to Jeff Thiele <=-

Who are these people doing the so called "fact checking" do they lean
to the left or right? They should not lean in either direction, when
the matter is specifically speaking of fact checking.

We've proven that the so-called "fact checkers" are nothing more than repeaters of the Narrative.

Snotty little Leftie nutcase writes a hit piece. That's referenced by slightly better publisher, which is referenced by another article from a more "trusted" publisher, and so on. After it's been filtered by several "news" (i.e. propaganda) sites, the "Fact Checkers" use that as "fact" for the checking.

And, yes, Project Veritas had a good example of the "Fact Checkers" using the NYT article - which was based on an article that was completely without evidence.


... Call me if you need my phone number!
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On 25 May 2021, Ron Lauzon said the following...

Gregory Deyss wrote to Jeff Thiele <=-

Who are these people doing the so called "fact checking" do they lean to the left or right? They should not lean in either direction, when the matter is specifically speaking of fact checking.

We've proven that the so-called "fact checkers" are nothing more than repeaters of the Narrative.

"The Narrative" being reality supported by facts.

Snotty little Leftie nutcase writes a hit piece. That's referenced by slightly better publisher, which is referenced by another article from a more "trusted" publisher, and so on. After it's been filtered by
several "news" (i.e. propaganda) sites, the "Fact Checkers" use that as "fact" for the checking.

Fact-checks rely on facts. I'm sorry if the facts so often don't support your Narrative.

And, yes, Project Veritas had a good example of the "Fact Checkers"
using the NYT article - which was based on an article that was
completely without evidence.

Project Veritas is hardly a pinnacle of responsible journalism.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Hello Jeff!

25 May 21 08:23, you wrote to Ron Lauzon:

And, yes, Project Veritas had a good example of the "Fact
Checkers" using the NYT article - which was based on an article
that was completely without evidence.

Project Veritas is hardly a pinnacle of responsible journalism.

Ah, i heared about them. To the Washington Post, Project Veritas activist Jaime Philips claimed in November 2017 to have been impregnated by Republican Senator Roy Moore as a teenager and to have aborted the child. Moore was accused of sexual assault against her by two women at the time. Philips had been set up as a decoy to spread misinformation and then parade the media involved as the lying press. The Washington Post revealed that it had bugged dozens of journalists about politics and secretly recorded conversations. Project Veritas published the videos in question, "probably as a revenge action on the Post revelations."

Project Veritas activists infiltrate the immediate environment of the reportage target and document their work with a hidden camera. The main topics are events in politics, the media and public life. According to their own statements, the goal is to investigate and expose corruption, dishonesty, waste, fraud and misconduct in public and private organizations - always with a focus on organizations that are politically left-wing and/or rejected by conservatives.

This actually has nothing to do with investigative journalism.

Michael


--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20170303
* Origin: Silent Chat Point (2:310/31.4)

On 25 May 2021, Michael Mrak said the following...

And, yes, Project Veritas had a good example of the "Fact
Checkers" using the NYT article - which was based on an article
that was completely without evidence.

Project Veritas is hardly a pinnacle of responsible journalism.

[...]

This actually has nothing to do with investigative journalism.

Project Veritas is also infamous for splicing together their videos in such a way as to attempt to make it appear that people are saying things they never said. And the gullible lap it up.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Another interesting statistic is that they did not tend to come from counties that supported Trump. Overwhelmingly, they came from blue counties that Biden won comfortably and which had recently undergone a significant decline in non-Hispanic white population. ***It seems that a combination of their presidential candidate losing the election plus a fear of losing their local white majorities made them very upset, upset enough to attack their own government.***

*** Conjecture. ***


* SLMR 2.1a * Contraceptives: use 'em on all conceivable occasions.
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Being pepper sprayed wouldn't cause a blood clot or stroke. Someone else >MP> here indicated he was also hit in the head. That could cause bruising and >MP> clotting. That being the case, I wonder why he didn't mention being hit >MP> in the head to his brother?

It was me that mentioned that and, after checking, I'll admit that I was wrong about that.

I was not actually questioning whether or not it happened.
Thanks for clarifying.


* SLMR 2.1a * Despite the high cost of living, it remains popular.
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On 23 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Not sure who hit this particular officer but there are plenty of photos and video that shows that not all of the people swinging baseball bats (and the like) were white. I point this out because there seems to be an
intermingling in this echo and this discussion with the terms "Republicans/ insurrectionists/Trumpsters/white-supremacists." Unless they've become a lot more accepting than I could ever imagine, I tend to think the last one excludes people who are not white.

The insurrectionists who stormed the Capitol were overwhelmingly white. Many of them have been arrested, and data indicates that they tended to be longtime
Trump supporters, including GOP donors, Republican Party members, white supremacists, far-right militants, QAnon believers, and members of the military.

Them being overwhelmingly white doesn't make them white supremacists, even though I have seen that term thrown around a lot.

It goes back the claim that an supposedly died due to being hit on the
head but turns out did not. The only footage I saw of someone swinging a baseball bat like object at authorities, and making contact, was a non-white person who was either wanted or arrested for doing so.


* SLMR 2.1a * Tip: Never take a beer to a job interview.
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Not correct. The issues in the US Pacific Northwest, although they seemed to become more violent last Summer, predate the incident in Minneapolis that you speak of.

Police assaults on unarmed black fellow human beings also predate the incident in Minneapolis. BLM has been around since 2013.

In past, these were not BLM gatherings. The groups go by/went by names
like the Antifa Action Group (violent) and, before them, Occupy (usually non-violent) but they have been causing issues for years and have nothing to
do with Black (or any) Lives Mattering. They are anti-capitalists
protesters (Occupy), and violent thugs, arsonists, and terrorists (AAG).

They may have mixed in some BLM language, or attracted some BLM protesters,
to legitimize their actions, but they have nothing to do with BLM.


* SLMR 2.1a * Overdrawn? No way! I still have checks left!
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On 25 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Another interesting statistic is that they did not tend to come from cou that supported Trump. Overwhelmingly, they came from blue counties that won comfortably and which had recently undergone a significant decline i non-Hispanic white population. ***It seems that a combination of their presidential candidate losing the election plus a fear of losing their l white majorities made them very upset, upset enough to attack their own government.***

*** Conjecture. ***

Actually, data from the 377 arrestees supports this. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/04/06/capitol-insurrection-arrests -cpost-analysis/

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
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On 25 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

The insurrectionists who stormed the Capitol were overwhelmingly white. of them have been arrested, and data indicates that they tended to be longtime
Trump supporters, including GOP donors, Republican Party members, white supremacists, far-right militants, QAnon believers, and members of the military.

Them being overwhelmingly white doesn't make them white supremacists,
even though I have seen that term thrown around a lot.

It does show them not to be black, though.

It goes back the claim that an supposedly died due to being hit on the head but turns out did not. The only footage I saw of someone swinging a baseball bat like object at authorities, and making contact, was a non-white person who was either wanted or arrested for doing so.

There were also assaults with a fire extinguisher, a flagpole, a door, and commandeered police riot equipment, among other things. It wasn't just some dude with a bat.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Not correct. The issues in the US Pacific Northwest, although they seemed to become more violent last Summer, predate the incident in Minneapolis that you speak of.

Police assaults on unarmed black fellow human beings also predate the incident in Minneapolis. BLM has been around since 2013.

In past, these were not BLM gatherings. The groups go by/went by names like the Antifa Action Group (violent) and, before them, Occupy (usually non-violent) but they have been causing issues for years and have
nothing to do with Black (or any) Lives Mattering. They are anti-capitalists protesters (Occupy), and violent thugs, arsonists, and terrorists (AAG).

Fair enough. However, BLM also predates last summer. And Antifa (whatever whatever) is a right-wing bogeyman.

They may have mixed in some BLM language, or attracted some BLM protesters, to legitimize their actions, but they have nothing to do
with BLM.

It's somewhat difficult to have anything to do with BLM (or anyone else) when they don't exist as an organization. The Occupy [location] groups were, as
you said, largely peaceful.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 25 May 2021, Ron Lauzon said the following...

Who are these people doing the so called "fact checking" do they lean to the left or right? They should not lean in either direction, when the matter is specifically speaking of fact checking.

We've proven that the so-called "fact checkers" are nothing more than repeaters of the Narrative.

Snotty little Leftie nutcase writes a hit piece. That's referenced by slightly better publisher, which is referenced by another article from a more "trusted" publisher, and so on. After it's been filtered by
several "news" (i.e. propaganda) sites, the "Fact Checkers" use that as "fact" for the checking.

The left called Trump a Nazi, but it would seem that Joe Biden has many
Joseph Goebbels types twisting the Truth.
Trump almost never had a problem producing clear thought and speaking it w/ clarity, sure were a few slips with the speech, with Trump as I am sure the left would point out, but every single time that Biden speaks he sounds
crossed between porky pig and Elmer Fudd, in addition did you notice that Joe nearly never finishes his words with proper annunciation, it's dysarthria
with a little bit of aphasia which is why he sounds very sloppy when he
speaks, this could explain the gaffes as well.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/biden-media-gaffes-coronavirus

Joe Biden is what you get when you mix arrogance and senility.
This is just great.
https://tinyurl.com/y637yvu5

. ______ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
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On 25 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

The insurrectionists who stormed the Capitol were overwhelmingly white.
of them have been arrested, and data indicates that they tended to be longtime
Trump supporters, including GOP donors, Republican Party members, white
supremacists, far-right militants, QAnon believers, and members of the military.

Them being overwhelmingly white doesn't make them white supremacists, even though I have seen that term thrown around a lot.

It does show them not to be black, though.

Not to be *overwhelmingly* so. I am sure some of them would be surprised to
be told they are not black. Since they didn't likely vote for Biden, though, maybe they are not?


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@MSGID: <60AD8862.10064.politicf@capitolcityonline.net>
@REPLY: <60AD6E91.10049.politicf@capitolcityonline.net>

Not correct. The issues in the US Pacific Northwest, although the
seemed to become more violent last Summer, predate the incident in
Minneapolis that you speak of.

Police assaults on unarmed black fellow human beings also predate the incident in Minneapolis. BLM has been around since 2013.

In past, these were not BLM gatherings. The groups go by/went by names like the Antifa Action Group (violent) and, before them, Occupy (usually non-violent) but they have been causing issues for years and have nothing to do with Black (or any) Lives Mattering. They are anti-capitalists protesters (Occupy), and violent thugs, arsonists, and terrorists (AAG).

Fair enough. However, BLM also predates last summer. And Antifa (whatever whatever) is a right-wing bogeyman.

Well, they carry signs with Antifa Action Group on them. You can call them what you like but that is what I usually call them. "Violent left-wing non-organization that cannot be named" also gets the point across.

They may have mixed in some BLM language, or attracted some BLM protesters, to legitimize their actions, but they have nothing to do with BLM.

It's somewhat difficult to have anything to do with BLM (or anyone else) when they don't exist as an organization. The Occupy [location] groups were, as you said, largely peaceful.

They have a website, or have they also ceased to "exist"? I am guessing
that the answer is that they are really more of a movement than an
organization but thought I had better ask just in case I am not up to date
on who exists and who doesn't!


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On 26 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Them being overwhelmingly white doesn't make them white supremacist even though I have seen that term thrown around a lot.

It does show them not to be black, though.

Not to be *overwhelmingly* so. I am sure some of them would be
surprised to be told they are not black. Since they didn't likely vote for Biden, though, maybe they are not?

Information on those who committed crimes egregious enough to get themselves arrested indicate that they were far-right Trump supporters.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

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* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 26 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Fair enough. However, BLM also predates last summer. And Antifa (whateve whatever) is a right-wing bogeyman.

Well, they carry signs with Antifa Action Group on them. You can call them what you like but that is what I usually call them. "Violent left-wing non-organization that cannot be named" also gets the point across.

No information on "Antifa Action Group" is coming up in a Google search. "Anti-Fascist Action" was apparently an anti-fascist, anti-racist group
founded in Britain in 1985, but they seem to have dissolved by 2001. Anybody can put anything they want on a sign, though.

They may have mixed in some BLM language, or attracted some BLM protesters, to legitimize their actions, but they have nothing to d with BLM.

It's somewhat difficult to have anything to do with BLM (or anyone else) they don't exist as an organization. The Occupy [location] groups were, you said, largely peaceful.

They have a website, or have they also ceased to "exist"? I am guessing that the answer is that they are really more of a movement than an organization but thought I had better ask just in case I am not up to
date on who exists and who doesn't!

Who has a website? Antifa is short for "Anti-fascist;" it's a movement that's more defined by what it's against than by what it's for. Anyone who opposes fascism can be "Antifa." That said, if you find yourself opposing anti-fascists, what does that say about you?

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

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Hello Mike!

26 May 21 14:29, Jeff Thiele wrote to you:

Who has a website? Antifa is short for "Anti-fascist;" it's a movement that's more defined by what it's against than by what it's for. Anyone
who opposes fascism can be "Antifa." That said, if you find yourself opposing anti-fascists, what does that say about you?

Since around 1980, groups and organizations that actively fight neo-Nazism, anti-Semitism, racism, völkisch nationalism and right-wing historical revisionism have been referred to as Antifa. They thus place themselves in the tradition of historical antifascism since the 1920s. Antifa was already active against Hitler and his henchmen.

Following neo-Marxist critical theory, many anti-fascist groups understand fascism as a particular form of capitalism and anti-fascism therefore as part of a revolutionary struggle to overcome any class society. To distinguish themselves from "bourgeois" or "state-conformist" antifascists, they call themselves "autonomous," "militant," or "independent antifascists." Nevertheless, they can situationally seek alliances with other civil society groups.

In the autonomous Antifa, the use of violence is discussed broadly and in detail. The readiness for militancy is consensus and includes non-violent actions, civil disobedience, sit-in blockades and violence against property up to situational self-defense against physical attacks. Targeted attacks on life and limb by neo-Nazis or representatives of the state and business are rejected.

Trump has managed to sell the Antifa movement to many mostly ignorant citizens as a homogeneous terrorist organization. But they are definitely not.

It's always the same: find an external enemy against whom you can direct the hatred of your voters. Trump has done this to perfection and has completely divided the USA.

And now ask yourself: Who does this serve?

Michael


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On 26 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Them being overwhelmingly white doesn't make them white supremacis
even though I have seen that term thrown around a lot.

It does show them not to be black, though.

Not to be *overwhelmingly* so. I am sure some of them would be surprised to be told they are not black. Since they didn't likely vote for Biden, though, maybe they are not?

Information on those who committed crimes egregious enough to get themselves arrested indicate that they were far-right Trump supporters.

In this event, I don't doubt that. I doubt the use of some of the other adjectives/pronouns that seem to be used interchangably by folks here.


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They may have mixed in some BLM language, or attracted some BLM protesters, to legitimize their actions, but they have nothing to with BLM.

It's somewhat difficult to have anything to do with BLM (or anyone else
they don't exist as an organization. The Occupy [location] groups were,
you said, largely peaceful.

They have a website, or have they also ceased to "exist"? I am guessing that the answer is that they are really more of a movement than an organization but thought I had better ask just in case I am not up to date on who exists and who doesn't!

Who has a website? Antifa is short for "Anti-fascist;" it's a movement that's more defined by what it's against than by what it's for. Anyone who opposes fascism can be "Antifa." That said, if you find yourself opposing anti-fascists, what does that say about you?

I read "it is difficult to have anything to do with BLM as they don't exist
as an organization" to mean that BLM does not exist.

I am well aware of the denial of the existance of the "non-organization" that people call Antifa. I guess Portland's mayor (D) lied when, since the
federal administration change, he started pointing to Antifa has one of the issues his city has re: violence, rioting, etc.?

Anyone can call themselves an anti-fascist. You have to pay attention to
what they are protesting. These folks appear to equate all
capitalism to fascism. Maybe you do, too? I don't, so, yes, I am against their views on what THEY call fascism in general because they seem confused about what fascism actually is.


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Following neo-Marxist critical theory, many anti-fascist groups understand fas
sm as a particular form of capitalism and anti-fascism therefore as part of a volutionary struggle to overcome any class society. To distinguish themselves om "bourgeois" or "state-conformist" antifascists, they call themselves "auton
ous," "militant," or "independent antifascists." Nevertheless, they can situat
nally seek alliances with other civil society groups.

Trump has managed to sell the Antifa movement to many mostly ignorant citizens
s a homogeneous terrorist organization. But they are definitely not.

The mayor of Portland, (D), has refered to Antifa as one of the issues his
city is having with violence. He only started to do so AFTER Trump left
office and after a group continued to cause issues for his city. The group
in question (call them whatever you want) does indeed seem to have an issue understanding "fascism as a particular form of capitalism." They don't seem
to like any capitalism and seem to equate it all to what they call fascism.

Some may call them/selves "antifa" but I would agree they are much closer to Communists-Anarchists than anything.


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On 27 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

I am well aware of the denial of the existance of the "non-organization" that people call Antifa. I guess Portland's mayor (D) lied when, since the federal administration change, he started pointing to Antifa has one of the issues his city has re: violence, rioting, etc.?

Anyone can call themselves an anti-fascist. You have to pay attention to what they are protesting. These folks appear to equate all
capitalism to fascism. Maybe you do, too? I don't, so, yes, I am
against their views on what THEY call fascism in general because they
seem confused about what fascism actually is.

Do they, though? The Portland group known as Rose City Antifa would seem to agree with you, having distanced themselves from the violence in Portland by saying: "While many of the people involved may consider themselves anti-fascists in ideology, we narrowly define anti-fascism as actions taken
to oppose the insurgent right wing. Under this definition, protests that are not involved in direct opposition to far-right violence and instead combat
the state, capitalism, etc., would...be more accurately described as
anarchist, anti-capitalist, anti-authoritarian, or another term."

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Anyone can call themselves an anti-fascist. You have to pay attention to
what they are protesting. These folks appear to equate all
capitalism to fascism. Maybe you do, too? I don't, so, yes, I am against their views on what THEY call fascism in general because they seem confused about what fascism actually is.

Do they, though? The Portland group known as Rose City Antifa would seem to agree with you, having distanced themselves from the violence in Portland by saying: "While many of the people involved may consider themselves anti-fascists in ideology, we narrowly define anti-fascism as actions taken to oppose the insurgent right wing. Under this definition, protests that are not involved in direct opposition to far-right violence and instead combat the state, capitalism, etc., would...be more accurately described as anarchist, anti-capitalist, anti-authoritarian, or another term."

That actually, sort of, supports what I said. Sounds like Rose City Antifa agrees that there are people who are using a very broad definition when
calling themselves anti-fascists and are more anti-state, anti-capitalists.

I seem to remember running into issues with some here when calling those with the broad definition "left-wing anarchists" instead of antifa, but I am happy to call them that because that is what I think they really are, regardless of what they call themselves or what others call them.


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On 28 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

That actually, sort of, supports what I said. Sounds like Rose City Antifa agrees that there are people who are using a very broad
definition when calling themselves anti-fascists and are more
anti-state, anti-capitalists.

Or, even more broadly, if anyone can call themselves antifa, antifa does not exist as an organization.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 28 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

That actually, sort of, supports what I said. Sounds like Rose

City

Antifa agrees that there are people who are using a very broad definition when calling themselves anti-fascists and are more anti-state, anti-capitalists.

Or, even more broadly, if anyone can call themselves antifa, antifa does

not

exist as an organization.

But that would apply to anyone... like you can't call the insurrectionists "conservatives" because anyone could call themselves that.

Rose City Antifa obviously believe that they (Rose City Antifa) exist.
They also obviously believe that there are people who are calling
themselves antifa, or that are somehow assuming their identity, but that do
not share their beliefs.

So, someone could identify as a "conservative" and do something stupid that reflects that they also do not share the beliefs of most conservatives.
#
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Hello Jeff,

That actually, sort of, supports what I said. Sounds like Rose City
Antifa agrees that there are people who are using a very broad
definition when calling themselves anti-fascists and are more
anti-state, anti-capitalists.

Or, even more broadly, if anyone can call themselves antifa, antifa does not
exist as an organization.

Most Germans, including Oskar Schindler, identified themselves as
Nazis when Adolf Hitler served as der F—hrer. Does that mean Nazis
did not exist as an organization?

--Lee

--
Nothing sucks like an Electrolux

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On 29 May 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Or, even more broadly, if anyone can call themselves antifa, antifa doe

not

exist as an organization.

But that would apply to anyone... like you can't call the
insurrectionists "conservatives" because anyone could call themselves that.

Conservatives aren't an organization, either. But the Republican Party is.
And anyone can vote for the GOP candidates. When people vote for, or
otherwise support, conservative candidates, that's more than just
calling themselves conservative, though.

Rose City Antifa obviously believe that they (Rose City Antifa) exist. They also obviously believe that there are people who are calling themselves antifa, or that are somehow assuming their identity, but that do not share their beliefs.

Who is to say that Rose City Antifa controls who is and isn't Antifa?

So, someone could identify as a "conservative" and do something stupid that reflects that they also do not share the beliefs of most conservatives. #

When they do it in support of conservative political candidates, though...

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
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On 31 May 2021, Lee Lofaso said the following...

Most Germans, including Oskar Schindler, identified themselves as
Nazis when Adolf Hitler served as der F—hrer. Does that mean Nazis
did not exist as an organization?

They had a leadership structure. Sure, anyone could claim to join them, but when those people did things the Nazis didn't want to be associated with, it was up to the Nazis to denounce them. They very rarely did, though.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Rose City Antifa obviously believe that they (Rose City Antifa) exist. They also obviously believe that there are people who are calling themselves antifa, or that are somehow assuming their identity, but that do not share their beliefs.

Who is to say that Rose City Antifa controls who is and isn't Antifa?

So a couple of messages back, you were using RCA's website as proof that
the anarchist/anti-capitalists protesters in Portland are not "antifa."
Now you are saying that RCA are wrong?

OK, fine, so Trump, and Portland's (D) mayor, are correct.


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On 01 Jun 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Rose City Antifa obviously believe that they (Rose City Antifa) exi They also obviously believe that there are people who are calling themselves antifa, or that are somehow assuming their identity, but do not share their beliefs.

Who is to say that Rose City Antifa controls who is and isn't Antifa?

So a couple of messages back, you were using RCA's website as proof that the anarchist/anti-capitalists protesters in Portland are not "antifa." Now you are saying that RCA are wrong?

Antifa is not an organization. Anyone can claim to be antifa, and anyone can say that anyone who claims to be Antifa isn't really Antifa. None of it means anything, because Antifa isn't an organization.

Christianity is much the same. There are the various denominations that are organizations, but really anyone can claim to be a Christian, and anyone can say that someone who claims to be a Christian isn't. The various
denominations are organized, but Christianity as a whole isn't. There's no control over which wackos choose to call themselves Christians, or even which denominations do so.

In the end, one's actions say far more about who one is than any name one
might choose.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Hello Jeff,

Or, even more broadly, if anyone can call themselves antifa,

antifa doe

not

exist as an organization.

But that would apply to anyone... like you can't call the
insurrectionists "conservatives" because anyone could call themselves
that.

Conservatives aren't an organization, either. But the Republican Party is. And anyone can vote for the GOP candidates. When people vote for, or otherwise support, conservative candidates, that's more than just
calling themselves conservative, though.

It used to be, not so long ago, that everybody in the state of
Louisiana was a Democrat. In fact, one could fit the entire state
population of Republicans inside a telephone booth at that time.
Yes, my friend, real telephone booths still existed in those days.
Just like in the tv show Doctor Who. The governor was a Democrat,
almost every legislator in both the House and the Senate was a
Democrat, and something like 99.9999% of the people were Democrats.

But today, two-thirds of the population is Republican. Including
two-thirds of all the state legislators in both the House and the
Senate. The governor is a Democrat, and is in his second term,
and remains popular by giving the people what they want.

What is the Republican Party? Or rather, what has it become?
Has it become something that is not even a party? In Louisiana,
all the Republicans are fighting amongst themselves, not even
being a cohesive unit. The attorney general, who is a Republican,
is embarrassing himself by appointing himself to a board that
pays him a princely amount, even though his action violates
the state constitution. Kinda like the fox guarding the henhouse.
But a really nifty way to raise funds to run for governor.

Rose City Antifa obviously believe that they (Rose City Antifa)

exist.

They also obviously believe that there are people who are calling
themselves antifa, or that are somehow assuming their identity, but

that

do not share their beliefs.

Who is to say that Rose City Antifa controls who is and isn't Antifa?

Paul Ryan claims he is a conservative Republican.
Donald J. Trump claims Paul Ryan is something else.
Who do you want to believe?

So, someone could identify as a "conservative" and do something stupid
that reflects that they also do not share the beliefs of most
conservatives. #

When they do it in support of conservative political candidates, though...

They are not really "conservative" political candidates.
Not in Louisiana, anyway.

--Lee

--
Not my president!

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