From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2

exegete@nunya.biz writes ...

Rubywand wrote:

Laurent wrote ...

....

Wouldn't it be nice making a database about Apple II gaming?

....


....

The main reason something like a comprehensive Apple II and IIgs gamebase didn't happen years ago is that every time someone started to put one together the person was attacked as a "pirate". In some cases,
the sites were also hacked into and wrecked.

And, because sometimes software that was still being sold was listed,
people contacted ISPs and got the sites shut down.

....

Yes; but, such actions very rarely related to current software. When the author of Ultima I/gs decided to change its status to commercial and sell it, the program was removed from the public archives.

When Intrec requested that an earlier release of ProTERM be withdrawn from the archives, it was.

Practically all of the complaints about "software that was still being sold" related to speculators-- second/third resellers of old software.

For instance, anyone here with a large collection of originals could open an online store and then complain about his/her sales being spoiled because the software is available for free download from the public archives.

Aside from the fact that owning boxes of old software doesn't give the reseller ownership of software rights, it turns out that free availability of copies generally _enhances_ sales of boxed originals with docs, decoder wheels, etc..

Anyway, most of the opposition to having old software freely available came from persons who ranted about "piracy". Didn't matter how old the game or whatever was. Didn't matter that copying oldie software is not a crime. Didn't matter that the rights owners (SSI, Activision, EA, Origin, ...) had no objections to their old software being offered.

And, to the anti-"piracy" types, it did not matter that making it impossible to freely download old commercial software would just about kill interest in the Apple II. (In which case A2 software resellers, and every other A2 seller, might as well chuck their stocks into the nearest lake.)

Took years of wrangling before we agreed that, okay, downloading Wavy Navy, Sneakers, Copy II Plus, Ultima III, Appleworks, Music Studio, Dungeon Master, ... is not software piracy.



Rubywand
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2

"Rubywand" <rubywand@swbell.net> wrote in message news:4161A542.B44E0397@swbell.net...

Took years of wrangling before we agreed that, okay, downloading Wavy Navy, Sneakers, Copy II Plus, Ultima III, Appleworks, Music Studio,

Dungeon

Master, ... is not software piracy.

For the sake of accuracy, let's establish some facts:

1.) Current copyright laws grant holders amazing lengths of time to protect their assets, and guarantees avenues of remedy when their rights
(entitlements) are violated.

2.) Copying copyrighted media without the publisher's/author's permission is theft, unless a license or agreement states it's OK to do so.

3.) Most of the software that is downloaded, was at one time, commercially
sold product, with copyrights intact. Also, the anti-copying protections originally placed on said software were circumvented specifically for the purpose of illegally distibuting the "cracked" version of the product.

4.) Due to the obvious current market realities, it is not practical or cost effective for a company such as the ones you mentioned to investigate and pursue legal action - there is no benefit or cost reduction in reducing
Apple II piracy, nor is there much benefit in protecting their
(intellectual) assets unless they can be sold, rejuvenated or otherwise made profitable again. This is partially the same reason why long-time companies
may not "free" their software. Examples: resurgence in retro-style arcades,
old video games being reinvented and modernized (Prince of Persia) create
new licensing and revenue opportunites. The reality is that companies don't like to give things away for free (generally speaking).

For the sake of convenience, lets establish at least one belief:

1.) Because the original publishers (assuming they're still in business)
aren't actively investigating, suing or otherwise protecting their brands
and intellectual property, it might be interpreted that they have
"abandoned" their product to the public domain. Who out there supports 20 year-old software?

2.) Oh, there's got to be a few more here, but #1 or variations thereof seem
to be the main thing people use to justify what they do.

For the sake of honesty, lets summarize:

1.) Just because no one is hunting you down or seems to care that you're copying WavyNavy, that still doesn't make it legal, and by definition it's still piracy. Still, your risk of getting caught and prosecuted is
practically nil.

2.) It's true, copying 20-year old titles doesn't seem to be hurting anyone right now - what damage there was, is done and long over -- unless is contributes to the belief that software still being published, supported and sold today is also "freely" copyable. Kinda "iffy" on that last one - seems more of a morality issue.

I think some of the existing developers who still support the II are
concerned with the casual attitude some people may have about copying. It's
not like fortunes are being made or lost anymore - some guys are lucky to
get pizza money. Silvern Castle is an example - a LOT of people played it,
it was a VERY popular download - but except for a tiny few, no one
registered their copy or paid the modest shareware fee. Today it's free only due to the generosity of Jeff Fink.

My position on copying old product is "plffst, could care less" but I do
prefer to get the originals when I can because the manual comes in handy sometimes. But if it's still being sold, supported - I buy it.

Having just stepped off the soapbox, I part with, "Yeah, most everyone does
it - but don't say it isn't piracy... its just that no one cares anymore."


--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2

In article <gwi8d.1167$Lk3.15@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com>,
Sean Fahey <a2fan@hotmail.com> wrote:

"Rubywand" <rubywand@swbell.net> wrote in message >news:4161A542.B44E0397@swbell.net...

Took years of wrangling before we agreed that, okay, downloading Wavy >> Navy, Sneakers, Copy II Plus, Ultima III, Appleworks, Music Studio,

Dungeon

Master, ... is not software piracy.

For the sake of accuracy, let's establish some facts:

1.) Current copyright laws grant holders amazing lengths of time to protect >their assets, and guarantees avenues of remedy when their rights >(entitlements) are violated.

True.

2.) Copying copyrighted media without the publisher's/author's permission is >theft, unless a license or agreement states it's OK to do so.

False. Aside from the various exceptions to copyright, copyright infringement is not theft. Theft is typically a state misdemeanor; copyright
infringement is a Federal tort making one liable for damages of
$100,000 per infringement, and in many cases a Federal felony.

3.) Most of the software that is downloaded, was at one time, commercially >sold product, with copyrights intact. Also, the anti-copying protections >originally placed on said software were circumvented specifically for the >purpose of illegally distibuting the "cracked" version of the product.

The first statement is true. The second statement can only be
deemed to be true in the case of software with pirate splash
screens, and which is known to have been copy protected. In other
cases, the copying protections may have been originally circumvented
for other reasons.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2


"Matthew Russotto" <russotto@grace.speakeasy.net> wrote in message news:0M2dnV1H4J9rKPzcRVn-sg@speakeasy.net...

1.) Current copyright laws grant holders amazing lengths of time to

protect

their assets, and guarantees avenues of remedy when their rights >(entitlements) are violated.

True.

2.) Copying copyrighted media without the publisher's/author's permission

is

theft, unless a license or agreement states it's OK to do so.

False. Aside from the various exceptions to copyright, copyright

infringement

is not theft. Theft is typically a state misdemeanor; copyright
infringement is a Federal tort making one liable for damages of
$100,000 per infringement, and in many cases a Federal felony.

Technically, I'll give you the point... but I did specify "Copying"
copyrighted media - not just "violating" which I think you interpreted - the general case law has swung to contributory conclusions, that illegal copying deprives the copyright holder or publisher of revenue, loss of control of intellectual property, thus equating to financial or IP theft. This is the position the RIAA, MPAA and ASCAP for example have taken. But overall,
you're right - I was sloppy in describing what I meant to say.

3.) Most of the software that is downloaded, was at one time,

commercially

sold product, with copyrights intact. Also, the anti-copying protections >originally placed on said software were circumvented specifically for the >purpose of illegally distibuting the "cracked" version of the product.

The first statement is true. The second statement can only be
deemed to be true in the case of software with pirate splash
screens, and which is known to have been copy protected. In other
cases, the copying protections may have been originally circumvented
for other reasons.

Heh, having my old handle on a few splash screens around the net gives me a perspective on this. We wanted to let the world know we couldn't be stopped
by mere copy-protection, and just let it all hang out. What peeved us the
most was when another group would take our booter out and/or modify it or
put their own in with their new screen, and steal our props. Now that's
serious (and amusing) IRONY. "You jerks in 212 can't do that! That was our crack; we broke it! It's, it's... it's copyrighted!"


--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2



Rubywand wrote:

exegete@nunya.biz writes ...

Rubywand wrote:

Laurent wrote ...

....

Wouldn't it be nice making a database about Apple II gaming?

....

....

The main reason something like a comprehensive Apple II and IIgs >>>gamebase didn't happen years ago is that every time someone started to put >>>one together the person was attacked as a "pirate". In some cases,
the sites were also hacked into and wrecked.

And, because sometimes software that was still being sold was listed, >>people contacted ISPs and got the sites shut down.

....

Yes; but, such actions very rarely related to current software.

Very rarely, but occasionally.

When the

author of Ultima I/gs decided to change its status to commercial and sell it, the program was removed from the public archives.

When Intrec requested that an earlier release of ProTERM be withdrawn from
the archives, it was.

Practically all

But not all.

of the complaints about "software that was still being

sold" related to speculators-- second/third resellers of old software.

For instance, anyone here with a large collection of originals could open
an online store and then complain about his/her sales being spoiled because the
software is available for free download from the public archives.

Aside from the fact that owning boxes of old software doesn't give the reseller ownership of software rights, it turns out that free availability of copies generally _enhances_ sales of boxed originals with docs, decoder wheels,
etc..

Anyway, most of the opposition to having old software freely available came from persons who ranted about "piracy". Didn't matter how old the game or
whatever was. Didn't matter that copying oldie software is not a crime. Didn't
matter that the rights owners (SSI, Activision, EA, Origin, ...) had no objections to their old software being offered.

But wouldn't give permission.

And, to the anti-"piracy" types, it did not matter that making it impossible to freely download old commercial software would just about kill interest in the Apple II. (In which case A2 software resellers, and every other
A2 seller, might as well chuck their stocks into the nearest lake.)

Took years of wrangling before we agreed that, okay, downloading Wavy Navy, Sneakers, Copy II Plus, Ultima III, Appleworks, Music Studio, Dungeon Master, ... is not software piracy.



Rubywand

For all the verbiage, you still haven't denied that sometimes piracy did
take place. Nor have you dealt with the fact that ISPs and others
"farther upstream" were more than willing to shut down sites that they,
not some "who ranted about piracy'", shut down the sites. There was
enough legitimate concern that responsible individuals and corporations
acted in an adult, responsible manner.

Sure, these sites are useful, and helpful. No doubt most, even the overwhelming majority of the II catalog is PD, freeware or
"abandonware." But that doesn't excuse the fact that real piracy had
taken place, perhaps even now is taking place. And that among the most
vocal defenders of these repositories were the worst pirates known in
the Apple II world. One of whom, before departing (once again), admitted
that he had pirated software. Oh, and on one of his resurrections
retracted that statement.

There are what, half a dozen, or a couple of dozen packages still being
sold? It should be easy to insure that such piracy doesn't happen again.
I hope those who maintain such sites today are guarding against any
future piracy.

Roy



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2

Sean Fahey writes ...

....

For the sake of accuracy, let's establish some facts:

1.) Current copyright laws grant holders amazing lengths of time to protect their assets, and guarantees avenues of remedy when their rights (entitlements) are violated.

2.) Copying copyrighted media without the publisher's/author's permission is theft, unless a license or agreement states it's OK to do so.

To legally qualify as "theft", something of value must be taken. Oldie software is generally considered to have no significant market value to the rights holder. Freely distributing or downloading oldie software does not meet the tests for loss established by statute relating to copyrights. There is no crime.

If your claim is that any legally defined "software piracy" is happening, you can forget it.

The main "theft" concern is ethical-- i.e. is it right to offer oldie commercial software for download? And, is it right/okay to download the software? For bunches of reasons discussed may times, the answer to both questions is "Yes".

3.) Most of the software that is downloaded, was at one time, commercially sold product, with copyrights intact. Also, the anti-copying protections originally placed on said software were circumvented specifically for the purpose of illegally distibuting the "cracked" version of the product.

15-20 years ago, when the software was being sold by SSI, Origin, etc., illegal distribution was only one reason for cracking.

Another reason was for purchasers of originals to have a backup (which is allowed by law). Some copy protection schemes which are critical about things like alignment and timing eventually lead to disk failure.

Most software has bugs. Having a deprotected copy allows patching to fix important bugs which may never be fixed via an update from the company which released the software.

4.) Due to the obvious current market realities, it is not practical or cost effective for a company such as the ones you mentioned to investigate and pursue legal action

Check the news.answers ("USENET") FAQs. Every known Apple II source for oldie commercial software is listed along with links. For sure, finding the FAQs is a snap. Once there, it would take, maybe, a couple hours for a company rep to track down any listings of the company's A2 software and fire off "Please remove ..." messages to archive admins.

Any software rights owner who wants software removed from A2 archives can do it easily and cheaply.

- there is no benefit or cost reduction in reducing
Apple II piracy,

There may be a few guys swapping copies of currently sold IIgs software; don't know. Otherwise, in 2004, there's no such thing as "Apple II piracy".

nor is there much benefit in protecting their
(intellectual) assets unless they can be sold, rejuvenated or otherwise
made profitable again.

Your premise is false. A company which keeps silent on free distribution of its oldie A2 software does not give up its rights.

And, if there is any rejuvenation of some oldie game on another platform, the company will benefit from years of exposure of the product via playing by Apple II (C64, Atari, ...) users.

This is partially the same reason why long-time companies
may not "free" their software. Examples: resurgence in retro-style arcades, old video games being reinvented and modernized (Prince of Persia) create
new licensing and revenue opportunites. The reality is that companies don't like to give things away for free (generally speaking).

Depends. Companies are often willing to move oldies to public domain-- so long as someone in a company can guarantee that it still owns the oldie product and the status change is not too much of a hassle.

On the other hand, it's unlikely that a company would risk losing control of any brand names, etc. relating to current releases. For instance, Origin would probably not want to place the original "Ultima I" in public domain.

In general, the best stance for a company is to have no stated stance about free distribution of its oldie wares. It derives the benefits of having its name and the name of some game series, etc. promoted; and, it retains all of its rights.

For the sake of convenience, lets establish at least one belief:

1.) Because the original publishers (assuming they're still in business) aren't actively investigating, suing or otherwise protecting their brands
and intellectual property, it might be interpreted that they have
"abandoned" their product to the public domain.

That is a popular argument in some places. The "abondonware" idea never made much headway here, at least in the sense of affecting ownership. There seems to be no strong legal grounds for asserting that doing nothing equates to giving up ownership.

The Apple II community is pretty consistent about supporting ownership rights. If anything, owners and developers here probably have more say about where and under what conditions software may be listed than anywhere else.

Who out there supports 20 year-old software?

....

Well, I do. So do some other developers. Companies? Not likely, at least not officially. (Doesn't mean you might not find someone at Origin, Sir-Tech, ... who will try to help with a problem.)


....

I think some of the existing developers who still support the II are concerned with the casual attitude some people may have about copying. It's not like fortunes are being made or lost anymore - some guys are lucky to
get pizza money. Silvern Castle is an example - a LOT of people played it,
it was a VERY popular download - but except for a tiny few, no one
registered their copy or paid the modest shareware fee. Today it's free only due to the generosity of Jeff Fink.

....

Tried the game a couple years ago and enjoyed several hours of playing. But, then, there was another update with all sorts of directions for continuing. So, at least part of the problem with SC was the confusing barrage of updates and new releases. A lot of players probably wondered when the thing was going to be finished.



Rubywand
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2

exegete@nunya.biz writes ...

Rubywand wrote:

....

For all the verbiage, you still haven't denied that sometimes piracy did
take place.

There are hundreds of thousands of Apple II users. A few have had sites with a couple items which were still being sold commercially by the owners of the software or authorized distributors. That could be called "piracy". The Apple II community and site admins worked to have the items removed.

Nor have you dealt with the fact that ISPs and others
"farther upstream" were more than willing to shut down sites that they,
not some "who ranted about piracy'", shut down the sites. There was
enough legitimate concern that responsible individuals and corporations
acted in an adult, responsible manner.

Everyone knows that any complaint to an ISP about ~Copyright Violations~ can easily lead to a site being shut down-- doesn't mean that shutting down the site was reasonable, responsible, or justified.

Sure, these sites are useful, and helpful. No doubt most, even the overwhelming majority of the II catalog is PD, freeware or
"abandonware." But that doesn't excuse the fact that real piracy had
taken place, perhaps even now is taking place. And that among the most
vocal defenders of these repositories were the worst pirates known in
the Apple II world. One of whom, before departing (once again), admitted
that he had pirated software. Oh, and on one of his resurrections
retracted that statement.

One so-called "pirate" showed me an emailed apology from his strongest critic. Sometimes it takes a while to put things in proper perspective.

Activision, Origin, EA, ..., and Apple know perfectly well that their old Apple II software (and firmware) is all over the net. They choose to allow free distribution of such wares because they benefit.

There are what, half a dozen, or a couple of dozen packages still being
sold? It should be easy to insure that such piracy doesn't happen again.
I hope those who maintain such sites today are guarding against any
future piracy.

Roy

They seem to be doing fine.


Rubywand
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2


"Rubywand" <rubywand@swbell.net> wrote in message news:4162FEF1.191B79B3@swbell.net...

Sean Fahey writes ...

To legally qualify as "theft", something of value must be taken.

Oldie

software is generally considered to have no significant market value to

the

rights holder. Freely distributing or downloading oldie software does not

meet

the tests for loss established by statute relating to copyrights. There is

no

crime.

What tests? In whose judgment? Isn't that an assumption? Not to nit here,
but if you take something you aren't entitled to, whereas the author or publisher hasn't surrendered their rights or changed the terms of
distrbution of said item, how is that not potentially theft? I say
potentially, because we are speaking in the hypothetical, and conditions may not be the same for all situations.

15-20 years ago, when the software was being sold by SSI, Origin,

etc.,

illegal distribution was only one reason for cracking.

Another reason was for purchasers of originals to have a backup

(which is

allowed by law). Some copy protection schemes which are critical about

things

like alignment and timing eventually lead to disk failure.

True, true... but how many people made a legal backup of their software and then said, "Hey, I'll upload this to the local BBS for safekeeping, but
before I do, I'll put a little blurb for my own BBS, "Pirate's Cove" with a phone number so other people like me can send me their backups!"

C'mon, I was one of those kids - we traded with just about everyone - our
sole purpose was to collect as many programs and games as possible so we
could be the biggest, baddest collectors. We also had a technical interest
in seeing how everything worked, but it was mostly for prestige and bragging rights and because we didn't have any dough to buy Karateka. Being a
teenager in middle school, without a job and only about $10-$15 a week
(which we spent on floppy disks or D&D stuff) made buying software tough -
we had a "stick it to the man" attitude.

Check the news.answers ("USENET") FAQs. Every known Apple II source

for

oldie commercial software is listed along with links. For sure, finding

the

FAQs is a snap. Once there, it would take, maybe, a couple hours for a

company

rep to track down any listings of the company's A2 software and fire off "Please remove ..." messages to archive admins.

Any software rights owner who wants software removed from A2 archives

can

do it easily and cheaply.

Well, I did say "no one cares".

There may be a few guys swapping copies of currently sold IIgs

software;

don't know. Otherwise, in 2004, there's no such thing as "Apple II

piracy".

Eh, well I did see a couple of bootlegged copies of currently shipping commercial CD-ROMs (Syndicomm stuff) being sold at a local retro-computing
swap meet last year.

Your premise is false. A company which keeps silent on free

distribution

of its oldie A2 software does not give up its rights.

I agree but thats not quite what I said - a company that fails to defend
it's copyrights will be in a weaker position if they later choose to
excercise their copyright. That premise is one I have personal experience
in.

Depends. Companies are often willing to move oldies to public

domain-- so

long as someone in a company can guarantee that it still owns the oldie

product

and the status change is not too much of a hassle.

Wish more of them would go to the effort.

On the other hand, it's unlikely that a company would risk losing

control

of any brand names, etc. relating to current releases. For instance,

Origin

would probably not want to place the original "Ultima I" in public domain.

In general, the best stance for a company is to have no stated stance about free distribution of its oldie wares. It derives the benefits of

having

its name and the name of some game series, etc. promoted; and, it retains

all

of its rights.

Thats not how most businesses "think" about their property.

That is a popular argument in some places. The "abondonware" idea

never

made much headway here, at least in the sense of affecting ownership.

There

seems to be no strong legal grounds for asserting that doing nothing

equates to

giving up ownership.

I only brought up "abandonware" because I see it used a lot... as you said, it's a popular argument in some places.

The Apple II community is pretty consistent about supporting

ownership

rights. If anything, owners and developers here probably have more say

about

where and under what conditions software may be listed than anywhere else.

I can't (won't) comment on that - I've seen both sides of the coin, er, argument...


--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113