From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2

I read on the C-One page that its primary CPU is a 20 MHz version of the
65816. However, the fastest chip listed as available from WDC is the 14 MHz version.

Does anyone have a web site address for ordering the 20 MHz version?

Thanks,

- Mike


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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2

Mike Pender <mpender@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:qsCTa.63681$kI5.45670@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...

I read on the C-One page that its primary CPU is a 20 MHz version of the 65816. However, the fastest chip listed as available from WDC is the 14

MHz

version.

Does anyone have a web site address for ordering the 20 MHz version?

FYI - I'm thinking about getting a TWGS and upgrading it to ~20 MHz using
the new 65816-20. I guess that means I would also need to improve the TTL chips on the TWGS to something with a < 5 usec response time. Does anyone
know the gate speeds for the various revisions of the TWGS?

I'll also need to find a source for 60-100 MHz crystal replacements.

Thanks,

- Mike




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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2

Hi. A TWGS won't go that fast. You may wish to read the FAQ.

Hope this helps,
Jason Whorton



"Mike Pender" <mpender@spamsucks.com> wrote in message news:A_LTa.66772$kI5.16517@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...

Mike Pender <mpender@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:qsCTa.63681$kI5.45670@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...

I read on the C-One page that its primary CPU is a 20 MHz version of

the

65816. However, the fastest chip listed as available from WDC is

the 14

MHz

version.

Does anyone have a web site address for ordering the 20 MHz version?

FYI - I'm thinking about getting a TWGS and upgrading it to ~20 MHz

using

the new 65816-20. I guess that means I would also need to improve the

TTL

chips on the TWGS to something with a < 5 usec response time. Does

anyone

know the gate speeds for the various revisions of the TWGS?

I'll also need to find a source for 60-100 MHz crystal replacements.

Thanks,

- Mike

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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2

Marc Walters <marc@objectconnections.com> wrote in message news:d7e7c90e.0307231948.437280dc@posting.google.com...

IIRC they're 14Mhz chips that have been tested and marked as reliable
at 20Mhz.
You might be able to get them from the current manufacturer of the CMD SuperCPU, Maurice Randall Engineering:
http://www.cmdrkey.com/

You're right; Maurice said the same thing. They buy the 14 MHz part, check
it out to make sure it works to 20 MHz and just start using it. He also
told me that it is rare to get a 65816-14 that can't be clocked to 20 MHz,
but that they usually become unstable by 22 MHz.

Even so, a IIgs running at 20 MHz sounds pretty cool to me.

- Mike


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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2

Well, hey. Good luck on your project. It sounds nice.

Thank you,
Jason Whorton



"Mike Pender" <mpender@spamsucks.com> wrote in message news:%2WTa.69741$kI5.33548@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...

Jason Whorton <jason at microxl.com> wrote in message news:vhvet2oohjavd7@corp.supernews.com...

Hi. A TWGS won't go that fast. You may wish to read the FAQ.

Hope this helps,
Jason Whorton

A TWGS won't go that fast *yet* -- I realize that in addition to

replacing

the 65816 it would be necessary to replace the gate arrays in order to

reach

20 MHz. The FAQ assumes that it would be too difficult to read the

contents

of a gate array to duplicate it with another chip at a higher

speed--that's

an
awfully big assumption.

You shouldn't believe everything you read in a FAQ.

Hope this helps,
- Mike

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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2



M. Pender wrote:

Thanks, it should be a nice project if I get it working. I think there
might even be a commercial market for a 20 MHz IIgs accelerator board.

The general plan is to study the approaches used by the Zip GSX and the TranswarpGS and to simplify the design. Aesthetically, the difference between the two is amazing. The Transwarp looks like a nightmare to manufacture, with DIP switches and a daughterboard.

In comparison, the GSX is such a clean card that it is practically a work of art. The circuit traces are laid out in nice organized patterns, it looks like they minimized the path length for the circuit routing, and the
on-board memory layout is a model of how to conserve space.

As I understand the two design philosophies, the Zip plan was to recreate
the II on the card, whereas the Transwarp approach was to fetch instructions and data for the cache, process on the card, and to use a type of glue logic (implemented in gate arrays) to look for memory accesses or instruction combinations that require the processor to slow down.

If anybody knows where I can find some of the engineering documents for either of these cards, I would love to study them.

The ZipGS is a caching accelerator as the TransWarpGS is. The major
difference was that it used a custom chip to replace a lot of the
individual ones the TransWarpGS used. The story that circulated
when they stoped production was that another run of this chip was
$10K+ and there was no market for that many cards. At that time at
least the cards just were't selling. Someone bought a ZipGS and posted
that Alltech had said there was only one ZipGS left, it took two months
to sell.


There were a couple of II+,IIe accelerators that were almost computers
on a card, the Titan and even more so the TransWarp(not the
transWarpGS). The TransWarp doesn;t use the II, II+ or IIe processor
or motherboard RAM so you can run with those sockets empty.

For ZipGS or TransWarpGS knowledge Tony Diaz is the first person that
comes to mind. ///SHH Systeme offers ZipGS and TransWarpGS repair so
that's a possibility.

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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2


Wayne Stewart <waynes@telus.dotnet> wrote in message news:kd6Ua.16321$46.3083695@news2.telusplanet.net...

The ZipGS is a caching accelerator as the TransWarpGS is. The major difference was that it used a custom chip to replace a lot of the
individual ones the TransWarpGS used. The story that circulated
when they stoped production was that another run of this chip was
$10K+ and there was no market for that many cards. At that time at
least the cards just were't selling. Someone bought a ZipGS and posted
that Alltech had said there was only one ZipGS left, it took two months
to sell.

How many cards are in a production run? $10K for 100 cards isn't so great,
but $10K for 1000 cards is a bit more attractive.

There were a couple of II+,IIe accelerators that were almost computers
on a card, the Titan and even more so the TransWarp(not the
transWarpGS). The TransWarp doesn;t use the II, II+ or IIe processor
or motherboard RAM so you can run with those sockets empty.

I've been thinking about the computer-on-a-card approach since I posted that note about the Zip GSX and TranswarpGS. At some point it does become less expensive to incorporate the logic and functions of the motherboard into a single chip.

It would probably cost less to design a new Apple II-type computer with an
FPGA or ASIC that incorporates the functionality of a 65816-20, two serial ports, a display driver, an IDE disk driver and an ethernet adapter, than it would cost to add comparable functionality to the IIgs.

It will be interesting to see how things play out with the new C-one (the Commodore-64 uber-clone) which uses the same old 65816-14 chips, but
overclocks them to 20 MHz. IIRC the new motherboard design incorporates
some IBM-compatible features, like PS/2 keyboard and mouse connectors. I haven't heard anything about USB ports, a hard drive or ethernet capability though.

- Mike


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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2


Wayne Stewart <waynes@telus.dotnet> wrote in message news:kd6Ua.16321$46.3083695@news2.telusplanet.net...

The ZipGS is a caching accelerator as the TransWarpGS is. The major difference was that it used a custom chip to replace a lot of the
individual ones the TransWarpGS used. The story that circulated
when they stoped production was that another run of this chip was
$10K+ and there was no market for that many cards. At that time at
least the cards just were't selling. Someone bought a ZipGS and posted
that Alltech had said there was only one ZipGS left, it took two months
to sell.

Do you mean $10K just for a production run of the ASIC, not even for a production run of completed Zip cards?

How many chips are in a production run? $10K for 100 chips is pretty bad,
but $10K for 1000 chips is a bit more attractive.

There were a couple of II+,IIe accelerators that were almost computers
on a card, the Titan and even more so the TransWarp(not the
transWarpGS). The TransWarp doesn;t use the II, II+ or IIe processor
or motherboard RAM so you can run with those sockets empty.

I've been thinking about the computer-on-a-card approach since I posted that note about the Zip GSX and TranswarpGS. At some point it does become less expensive to incorporate the logic and functions of the motherboard into a single chip.

It would probably cost less to design a new Apple II-type computer with an
FPGA or ASIC that incorporates the functionality of a 65816-20, two serial ports, a display driver, an IDE disk driver and an ethernet adapter, than it would cost to add comparable functionality to the IIgs.

It will be interesting to see how things play out with the new C-one (the Commodore-64 uber-clone) which uses the same old 65816-14 chips, but
overclocks them to 20 MHz. IIRC the new motherboard design incorporates
some IBM-compatible features, like PS/2 keyboard and mouse connectors. I haven't heard anything about USB ports, a hard drive or ethernet capability though.

Of course, the C-one has some kind of user-definable coprocessor, which may make it a more attractive machine for a hobbyist who is willing to forgive
the
lack of amenities (no case, no power supply, no disk drives, etc.)

- Mike



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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2



M. Pender wrote:

Wayne Stewart <waynes@telus.dotnet> wrote in message news:kd6Ua.16321$46.3083695@news2.telusplanet.net...

The ZipGS is a caching accelerator as the TransWarpGS is. The major >>difference was that it used a custom chip to replace a lot of the >>individual ones the TransWarpGS used. The story that circulated
when they stoped production was that another run of this chip was
$10K+ and there was no market for that many cards. At that time at
least the cards just were't selling. Someone bought a ZipGS and posted
that Alltech had said there was only one ZipGS left, it took two months
to sell.

How many cards are in a production run? $10K for 100 cards isn't so great,

I think you missed something. He said $10K+ for one chip, not one card.

Roy

but $10K for 1000 cards is a bit more attractive.

There were a couple of II+,IIe accelerators that were almost computers
on a card, the Titan and even more so the TransWarp(not the
transWarpGS). The TransWarp doesn;t use the II, II+ or IIe processor
or motherboard RAM so you can run with those sockets empty.

I've been thinking about the computer-on-a-card approach since I posted that note about the Zip GSX and TranswarpGS. At some point it does become less expensive to incorporate the logic and functions of the motherboard into a single chip.

It has seemed to me that putting the CPU and RAM all on one card, and
perhaps adding itmes like ethernet/IDE/Video enhancements would be teh
best way to extend the //gs. Alas, I'm so ignorant that dreaming is all
I can achieve in this area.

It would probably cost less to design a new Apple II-type computer with an FPGA or ASIC that incorporates the functionality of a 65816-20, two serial ports, a display driver, an IDE disk driver and an ethernet adapter, than it would cost to add comparable functionality to the IIgs.

Well, having the megachip and the IWM/SWIM wouldn't be cheap!

Roy

It will be interesting to see how things play out with the new C-one (the Commodore-64 uber-clone) which uses the same old 65816-14 chips, but overclocks them to 20 MHz. IIRC the new motherboard design incorporates
some IBM-compatible features, like PS/2 keyboard and mouse connectors. I haven't heard anything about USB ports, a hard drive or ethernet capability though.

- Mike

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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2

Exegete <millers@noneofyourbusiness.com> writes:

I think you missed something. He said $10K+ for one chip, not one card.

Roy

Actually, he said $10K for one production run of the chip, not for one
chip.

There do exist chips that cost over $5K each in production, such as the
largest FPGAs (e.g., Xilinx XC2V6000), but this wasn't one of them.
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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2

Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote in message news:qhhe5ai7s2.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com...

Exegete <millers@noneofyourbusiness.com> writes:

I think you missed something. He said $10K+ for one chip, not one card.

Roy

Actually, he said $10K for one production run of the chip, not for one
chip.

There do exist chips that cost over $5K each in production, such as the largest FPGAs (e.g., Xilinx XC2V6000), but this wasn't one of them.

Typo; I was asking if the production run was just for the ASIC or for
completed cards.



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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2



Eric Smith wrote:

Exegete <millers@noneofyourbusiness.com> writes:

I think you missed something. He said $10K+ for one chip, not one card.

Roy

Actually, he said $10K for one production run of the chip, not for one
chip.

Since BOTH said "production run" I saw no need to repeat what was
understood. The misunderstanding was chip vs card.

Roy

There do exist chips that cost over $5K each in production, such as the largest FPGAs (e.g., Xilinx XC2V6000), but this wasn't one of them.

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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2

how about this idea c-one mboard with a "GS" card in the co-processor
slot with smartport,joyport and printer&modem ports , any custom chips
and any thing else provide drivers for the new devices.That way we get
vga monitors, 100 mhz bus,ide hd's and cdroms internal modem/ethernet
cards 1.44 3.5's all in one - no cludges maybe we could reprogram the
fpga's to be dsp's (quicktime on the GS!) or reprogram the fpga's to
handle cd-rs cdrw's and dvd's (udf) (and maybe later on an enhanced os
to handle more than 8 MB (up to 1 gig) !!!!
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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2

barana <barana24@telstra.com> wrote in message news:f7e8ce21.0307261748.538a6c50@posting.google.com...

how about this idea c-one mboard with a "GS" card in the co-processor
slot with smartport,joyport and printer&modem ports , any custom chips
and any thing else provide drivers for the new devices.That way we get
vga monitors, 100 mhz bus,ide hd's and cdroms internal modem/ethernet
cards 1.44 3.5's all in one - no cludges maybe we could reprogram the
fpga's to be dsp's (quicktime on the GS!) or reprogram the fpga's to
handle cd-rs cdrw's and dvd's (udf) (and maybe later on an enhanced os
to handle more than 8 MB (up to 1 gig) !!!!

The C-one has two slots, one of which could conceivably take a GS
compatibility card to support smartport and printer/modem ports. I think
the least painful approach would be to configure the FPGA to map GS I/O addresses to hardware and make a separate card that adds generic USB
peripheral compatibility to the C-one.

That said, I haven't seen anyone offering IDE hard drives, CDROMS, ethernet cards, or 1.44 meg 3.5" disk drives that support the C-one yet (emphasis on
the word "yet"). I expect that such things *must* be in the works, or the C-one will have a very short market window.

- Mike


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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2

Ever since I saw that IIGS accelerators plug into the
processor socket, I have wondered if it would be
possible to design a processor emulator. Not an
Apple II emulator, mind you, but a straight hardware
65C816 emulator. Imagine a fast, low power CPU.
Maybe a 1.0Ghz mobile Duron with supporting
hardware on a small card that plugs into the IIGS
CPU socket. Or put the hardware on a card that
plugs into a IIGS slot.

If power is the problem, an external power brick
could be added (like the never released Voodoo6
from the late 3dfx).

Now if you are talking add-on hardware for C-One,
I would much rather see a IIGS card for the PC
because today's software IIGS emulators just do
not cut it!
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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2

Supertimer <supertimer@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030727145820.27618.00000530@mb-m23.aol.com...

Now if you are talking add-on hardware for C-One,
I would much rather see a IIGS card for the PC
because today's software IIGS emulators just do
not cut it!

I think that's a great idea--although I think that some of the emulators for standard Apple II machines are excellent, such as the Apple Oasis emulator. Have you thought about the "essential features" list?


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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2

"MP" == M Pender <mpender@hotmail.com> writes:

It will be interesting to see how things play out with the new
C-one (the Commodore-64 uber-clone) which uses the same old
65816-14 chips, but overclocks them to 20 MHz.

As I wrote earlier, Apple II fans should stay tuned.

IIRC the new motherboard design incorporates some IBM-compatible
features, like PS/2 keyboard and mouse connectors.

It has PS/2 keyboard and mouse, 2x atari joystick connectors, VGA
output, stereo sound, and a parallel port. Internally it has a floppy connector, dual IDE connectors (with one CF slot), a PCI slot (with an
option of a 2nd one), a C64 cartridge slot, a CPU slot, and two A1200-
style clock ports.

I haven't heard anything about USB ports, a hard drive or ethernet capability though.

Dual IDE is standard, a clock port ethernet adapter was released this
weekend, and a USB adapter is in development.

--
___ . . . . . + . . o
_|___|_ + . + . + . Per Olofsson, arkadspelare
o-o . . . o + MagerValp@cling.gu.se
- + + . http://www.cling.gu.se/~cl3polof/
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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2

"MP" == M Pender <mpender@hotmail.com> writes:

That said, I haven't seen anyone offering IDE hard drives, CDROMS,
ethernet cards, or 1.44 meg 3.5" disk drives that support the
C-one yet (emphasis on the word "yet"). I expect that such things
*must* be in the works, or the C-one will have a very short market
window.

All of those are either standard components on the motherboard (IDE &
floppy) or available as an expansion card (RR-net, EUR 50 at www.jschoenfeld.com). Booting from HD and CD-ROM works in the current
rom, floppy is in development. RR-net is supported in Contiki, and
should run out of the box in C64 mode.

--
___ . . . . . + . . o
_|___|_ + . + . + . Per Olofsson, arkadspelare
o-o . . . o + MagerValp@cling.gu.se
- + + . http://www.cling.gu.se/~cl3polof/
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