From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system


I) The detour

A 45 minute job turned into a 3 hour job because of the additional task
of fixing the broken tilt mechanism. There are two coil springs under tremendous tension. That tension was put onto a tiny, thin plastic
part. That's what broke... astounding thoughtless engineering by Apple.
I put in a steel washer to replace it ... you get what? 50 for $2 ... retail... well that's fixed.

Where changing the hard disk required only removing 2 screws for the
left speaker and 2 screws for the HD bracket and swapping the mount pins
from the HD to the SD bracket ... fixing the stand spring issue required removing everything except the speakers (still had to loosen them).
(And of course removing the screen adhesive and replacing that...) A
lot of connectors in there in some cases awkward to remove. Needed a
video from OWC to locate a screw I missed.

I digress.

II) The objective

Cleaned off the glue strips and removed the residue with alcohol.

So after replacing the boards and fan assembly and connecting up I put
in the 1 TB SSD from OWC "Mercury".

W/O putting in the replacement glue strips, secured the display with
scotch tape on the outside and booted up. Under Disk Utility could see
the new disk drive.
Success!

Powered down and did a more secure external taping up and brought the
iMac back to my home office to install Catalina. (Big Sur is not
official on the late 2012 iMac - there is a hack, but I'll leave that
out for a while...).

So, plugged in the ostensibly bootable installer that I made (external
flash) and ... nothing. Didn't see it (booted "alt").

Booted into recovery: Disk utility still sees the installer.

Tried to recover from Time Machine. Finds it, locates the new disk,
starts and then comes up with some bizarre error and stops. No clue at
all as to the cause.

Tried to re-install via the web - wants to install: Mountain Lion!
(10.8) (original OS for this model...)

Trying to find out what I did wrong and not getting anywhere with web resources. Tired of it all. Giving up for today.

III) The retreat

So, opened it up again (thanking the wise guy on the web who suggests
not installing the glue strips until sure all is good) and re-installed
the 1TB original and that's where I am now... with an externally taped
up iMac 2012. I'll try again tomorrow or next week after reviewing everything.

Difficulty:
Hard disk: Easy. The biggest annoyance is obviously the glue strips
but very easy to remove with the little plastic "pizza wheel" cutter
provided by OWC. A guitar pick would do fine - just take care near the camera. Pro tip: put an Ethernet and a couple USB connectors in the
back before tightening down the logic board to assure good mechanical alignment of those connectors once done. 45 minutes while sipping
coffee and chatting with whoever is around. Add 10 minutes to do the
new glue strips I suppose.

Repairing the broken spring clip: very difficult: a lot of tension and
not much on the spring end to grab onto. Apple would have appropriate fixtures for such work and probably remove the entire sub assembly to
build / repair it. 1 hour - 90 minutes assuming you have some good
means to replace that plastic clip and then don't drop a screw when
almost done requiring you to take everything out again to get at it...


--
"...there are many humorous things in this world; among them the white
man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
-Samuel Clemens
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

On 2020-11-28 16:15, Alan Browne wrote:

Difficulty:
Hard disk:  Easy.  The biggest annoyance is obviously the glue strips
but very easy to remove with the little plastic "pizza wheel" cutter provided by OWC.  A guitar pick would do fine - just take care near the camera.  Pro tip: put an Ethernet and a couple USB connectors in the
back before tightening down the logic board to assure good mechanical alignment of those connectors once done.  45 minutes while sipping
coffee and chatting with whoever is around.  Add 10 minutes to do the
new glue strips I suppose.

Note: the logic board doesn't need to be tightened for the disk change
job, so the point above about putting in connectors for mechanical
alignment belongs in the section below.

Repairing the broken spring clip: very difficult: a lot of tension and
not much on the spring end to grab onto.  Apple would have appropriate fixtures for such work and probably remove the entire sub assembly to
build / repair it.  1 hour - 90 minutes assuming you have some good
means to replace that plastic clip and then don't drop a screw when
almost done requiring you to take everything out again to get at it...

--
"...there are many humorous things in this world; among them the white
man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
-Samuel Clemens
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In message <86zwH.69957$J92.31607@fx48.iad> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

I) The detour

A 45 minute job turned into a 3 hour job because of the additional task
of fixing the broken tilt mechanism. There are two coil springs under tremendous tension. That tension was put onto a tiny, thin plastic
part. That's what broke... astounding thoughtless engineering by Apple.

I've recently dealt with several 2009-2012 iMacs and none of them had
any issue with the tilt mechanism, so whatever Apple did it worked for
the vast majority of users.

Cleaned off the glue strips and removed the residue with alcohol.

I looked at the iFixit teardown and decided it was well-worth my time
and money to pay someone to replaced the SSD rather than doing it
myself.

Tried to re-install via the web - wants to install: Mountain Lion!
(10.8) (original OS for this model...)

There are two Internet installs, depending on the keys held down. One
always install the original OS, the other installs the currently
supported OS.

Difficulty:

It is not designed for consumers to open up and replace parts, so no consideration is made form someone who does not have a workshop
specifically setup to work on these machines.

--
How soon after the USPS issues the Calvin stamp will you send a
letter with one on the envelope?
Watterson: Immediately. I'm going to get in my horse and buggy and snail-mail a
check for my newspaper subscription.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

On 2020-11-28 20:33, Lewis wrote:

In message <86zwH.69957$J92.31607@fx48.iad> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

I) The detour

A 45 minute job turned into a 3 hour job because of the additional task
of fixing the broken tilt mechanism. There are two coil springs under
tremendous tension. That tension was put onto a tiny, thin plastic
part. That's what broke... astounding thoughtless engineering by Apple.

I've recently dealt with several 2009-2012 iMacs and none of them had
any issue with the tilt mechanism, so whatever Apple did it worked for
the vast majority of users.

Yet Apple offer the repair out of warranty. It's really pathetic what
they did in there.

Cleaned off the glue strips and removed the residue with alcohol.

I looked at the iFixit teardown and decided it was well-worth my time
and money to pay someone to replaced the SSD rather than doing it
myself.

It's very easy.

Tried to re-install via the web - wants to install: Mountain Lion!
(10.8) (original OS for this model...)

There are two Internet installs, depending on the keys held down. One
always install the original OS, the other installs the currently
supported OS.

I'll look into that. Could be a good backup plan. Thx.

Difficulty:

It is not designed for consumers to open up and replace parts, so no consideration is made form someone who does not have a workshop
specifically setup to work on these machines.

It's really not difficult at all. Anyone with the most modest ability
can do the disk change.


--
"...there are many humorous things in this world; among them the white
man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
-Samuel Clemens
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In message <GZCwH.5042$RV.1170@fx33.iad> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

On 2020-11-28 20:33, Lewis wrote:

In message <86zwH.69957$J92.31607@fx48.iad> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

I) The detour

A 45 minute job turned into a 3 hour job because of the additional task
of fixing the broken tilt mechanism. There are two coil springs under
tremendous tension. That tension was put onto a tiny, thin plastic
part. That's what broke... astounding thoughtless engineering by Apple.

I've recently dealt with several 2009-2012 iMacs and none of them had
any issue with the tilt mechanism, so whatever Apple did it worked for
the vast majority of users.

Yet Apple offer the repair out of warranty. It's really pathetic what
they did in there.

Cleaned off the glue strips and removed the residue with alcohol.

I looked at the iFixit teardown and decided it was well-worth my time
and money to pay someone to replaced the SSD rather than doing it
myself.

It's very easy.

Replacing the SSD module on the 2012 iMac requires removing just about everything from inside the iMac as it is positions on the underside of
the motherboard. It's dozens of screws and a shitload of very fiddly
bits.

iFixit lists it as "Difficult" and the directions give a 58 step process
just to get to the SSD, which you then have to duplicate in reverse
order to put the machine back together. Their estimate is 3 hours.

<https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iMac+Intel+27-Inch+EMC+2546+Blade+SSD+Replacement/15758>

Nothing easy about that at all.

It's really not difficult at all. Anyone with the most modest ability
can do the disk change.

Even certified Apple Repair people do not like to do this repair.

--
'You know the worst of it?' said Rincewind. 'Oook?' 'I don't even
remember walking under a mirror.' --Mort
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

So, plugged in the ostensibly bootable installer that I made (external flash) and ... nothing. Didn't see it (booted "alt").

Booted into recovery: Disk utility still sees the installer.

That's because on those machines the USB ports aren't active at that point.

You'll need to do an network install.

I dunno if it was the same model but it took me quite a while to figure that out, even did up a hard drive with the installer thinking the usb stick was
too advanced or something.

So you'll have to network install the os then later on it'll give the option
to use a TM backup to restore. Or start from scratch, your call.

The thing is, part 2, the network install didn't work either, it started but kept coming up with "OSX cannot be installed on this computer".

That took another shitload of time to find out it's the ssl cert they use to see if the image is fresh or expired. Unless they updated all of those recently, if you hit that error, shut off the wifi and disconnect the
ethernet. On that screen with the message, you can pull down "terminal" from the menu bar and using the date command, set it to something like Jan 1 2018 (might be 2016) then exit terminal.

I think as soon as you exit, it'll pick up where it left off and install whatever it's supposed to. Either that or quit the installer and do it all
over again, sans the wifi and ethernet.

I dunno what model you have but it sounds like all the same landmines I
landed on.

Those are the worst designed machines you can deal with. Terrible job from
the engineering group. Fuck heads.

-bruce
bje@ripco.com


--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <rq088v$2pc$1@remote5bge0.ripco.com>, <bje@ripco.com> wrote:

So, plugged in the ostensibly bootable installer that I made (external flash) and ... nothing. Didn't see it (booted "alt").

Booted into recovery: Disk utility still sees the installer.

That's because on those machines the USB ports aren't active at that point.

nonsense. of course they are.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

On 2020-11-29 00:33, Lewis wrote:

In message <GZCwH.5042$RV.1170@fx33.iad> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

On 2020-11-28 20:33, Lewis wrote:

In message <86zwH.69957$J92.31607@fx48.iad> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

I) The detour

A 45 minute job turned into a 3 hour job because of the additional task >>>> of fixing the broken tilt mechanism. There are two coil springs under >>>> tremendous tension. That tension was put onto a tiny, thin plastic
part. That's what broke... astounding thoughtless engineering by Apple. >>>

I've recently dealt with several 2009-2012 iMacs and none of them had
any issue with the tilt mechanism, so whatever Apple did it worked for
the vast majority of users.

Yet Apple offer the repair out of warranty. It's really pathetic what
they did in there.

Cleaned off the glue strips and removed the residue with alcohol.

I looked at the iFixit teardown and decided it was well-worth my time
and money to pay someone to replaced the SSD rather than doing it
myself.

It's very easy.

Replacing the SSD module on the 2012 iMac requires removing just about

er, not what I was doing though. I was replacing the HD.

everything from inside the iMac as it is positions on the underside of
the motherboard. It's dozens of screws and a shitload of very fiddly
bits.

Replacing the HD. This takes:
a- removing the screen.
b- undoing 2 screws (left speaker) - leave the speaker in, but move
slightly left.
c- undoing 2 screws (left side of HD mount)
d- removing 4 screws from the HD and installing them on the SSD adaptor.
- reverse the above steps.

It's not difficult at all and can be done in 45 minutes at a nice easy
pace. The only drag is removing the glue from the display and frame -
that alone took 10 minutes.

Replacing the glue can be done with thin double sided tape or kit strips
from iFixit, OWC, etc. This takes a few careful minutes. Also one
should test the computer before applying the tape - so you connect up,
boot to recovery, verify the new disk is there, shut down, remove the
display and do the tape up. Reinstall the display.

Had Apple made the bezel edge 5 - 10mm thicker and attached with magnets
as on older iMacs, the whole disk replacement would take 10 minutes at
an easy pace. Indeed faster than on my 2007 iMac which required
removing boards to access the HD.

iFixit lists it as "Difficult" and the directions give a 58 step process
just to get to the SSD, which you then have to duplicate in reverse
order to put the machine back together. Their estimate is 3 hours.

Getting to that side is harder, but I wouldn't say difficult. "Tedious"
is more like it. iFixIt are probably setting expectations with that
skill level claim.

You do need the right set of Torx heads (T8, T10, T25).

I had to do those steps yesterday to get at and repair the tilt
mechanism. Indeed had to remove the logic board again to access a screw
that I dropped. (Pro tip: don't do this with the computer upright as I
did - lay the system down. [I have a sore back and didn't want to be
leaning over the computer]).

I lost time doing the tilt mechanism, but to do the described SSD swap
would be more like 90 minutes to 2 hours. Pulling screws and
disconnecting connectors is not "difficult". It is tedious. (Pro-tip:
use a magnet cup and arrange the screws in it so they go back to the
right location - though it's hard to mess that up. 2 screws are very different than the others and some are much longer - but it's obvious
where they go)

Even certified Apple Repair people do not like to do this repair.

Nobody likes to do simple repairs that require a couple hours of
removing and replacing a lot of parts to get at a part that takes 10-20
seconds to swap.

--
"...there are many humorous things in this world; among them the white
man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
-Samuel Clemens
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

On 2020-11-29 08:38, bje@ripco.com wrote:

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

So, plugged in the ostensibly bootable installer that I made (external
flash) and ... nothing. Didn't see it (booted "alt").

Booted into recovery: Disk utility still sees the installer. <---[1]

That's because on those machines the USB ports aren't active at that point.

If the USB ports weren't active the system would not have been able to
see the installer [1] above.



I'll reread the rest. There may be a nugget of usefulness in there,
esp. re: the WiFi.

--
"...there are many humorous things in this world; among them the white
man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
-Samuel Clemens
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

On 2020-11-29 08:38, bje@ripco.com wrote:

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

So, plugged in the ostensibly bootable installer that I made (external
flash) and ... nothing. Didn't see it (booted "alt").

Booted into recovery: Disk utility still sees the installer. <---[1]

That's because on those machines the USB ports aren't active at that point.

If the USB ports weren't active the system would not have been able to
see the installer [1] above.

You first booted using the "alt" (option key?) and it didn't see the usb
stick.

Right?

Then you booted using command-r and you could see it then, right?

That's what I'm saying, using the option boot, it'll not show up because the usb ports aren't initialized, turned on or whatever.

I dunno if has to do with that series of macs, ones with or without dvd
drives, no bootable drive detected, it's something but it'll never show up
as a bootable device. Once you install osx on the internal drive, it'll
work.

By the way, here are the key options for the command-r shit (middle of the page)...

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204904

-bruce
bje@ripco.com
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <rq0diu$4li$1@remote5bge0.ripco.com>, <bje@ripco.com> wrote:

So, plugged in the ostensibly bootable installer that I made (external >>> flash) and ... nothing. Didn't see it (booted "alt").

Booted into recovery: Disk utility still sees the installer. <---[1]

That's because on those machines the USB ports aren't active at that point.

If the USB ports weren't active the system would not have been able to
see the installer [1] above.

You first booted using the "alt" (option key?) and it didn't see the usb stick.

Right?

Then you booted using command-r and you could see it then, right?

That's what I'm saying, using the option boot, it'll not show up because the usb ports aren't initialized, turned on or whatever.

if that were the case, the keyboard would not work, as it too uses usb.

I dunno if has to do with that series of macs, ones with or without dvd drives, no bootable drive detected, it's something but it'll never show up
as a bootable device. Once you install osx on the internal drive, it'll
work.

false.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

On 2020-11-29 10:09, bje@ripco.com wrote:

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

On 2020-11-29 08:38, bje@ripco.com wrote:

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

So, plugged in the ostensibly bootable installer that I made (external >>>> flash) and ... nothing. Didn't see it (booted "alt").

Booted into recovery: Disk utility still sees the installer. <---[1]

That's because on those machines the USB ports aren't active at that point. >>

If the USB ports weren't active the system would not have been able to
see the installer [1] above.

You first booted using the "alt" (option key?) and it didn't see the usb stick.

Right?

Then you booted using command-r and you could see it then, right?

Got it. Yep. That seems to be correct. Not sure if that's because the
USB is not on or some other issue, however.

That's what I'm saying, using the option boot, it'll not show up because the usb ports aren't initialized, turned on or whatever.

I dunno if has to do with that series of macs, ones with or without dvd drives, no bootable drive detected, it's something but it'll never show up
as a bootable device. Once you install osx on the internal drive, it'll
work.

By the way, here are the key options for the command-r shit (middle of the page)...

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204904

Thanks - I'll look into that.

Right now I'm updating to the latest Catalina from Mojave on the HD. If
that works (probably won't - I tried with earlier versions), then I'll re-install the SSD and try again with various recipe's from all over.


--
"...there are many humorous things in this world; among them the white
man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
-Samuel Clemens
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

Got it. Yep. That seems to be correct. Not sure if that's because the
USB is not on or some other issue, however.

Well here's a mindfuck for you.

Put the original drive back in and insert the usb drive.

Now boot holding the option key.

Shows up doesn't it?

Boot normally, settings -> startup disk.

Shows up too, right?

Reboot and it'll boot from the stick just fine.

Just quit the installer and reboot.

Now put the new drive in and try all of the above.

No workie, right?

With the new drive in the machine, command-r on boot, quit the installer and
go up to the menu for the Utilities.

usb stick shows up.

selcet it, now reboot, usb stick no longer workie.

Alan I'm not trying to pull your dick, I went through this nearly exactly
last summer and took two days to figure out what was going on. If I'm not mistaken, it's a firmware update that you are missing.

I sort of remembered once I got past the clock error thing, it had to reboot two or three times for everything to finish. One of those times was
definetly a firmware update. I never went back to check.

All it comes down to is, your machine without a bootable drive will not turn
on usb or be able to boot from the usb ports.

And to the fucktard, yes, the keyboard and mouse via usb will work fine, but then, they aren't bootable devices, are they?

And that actually might be what I ran across while searching for an answer
to this, it's something with the handshaking for usb1/usb2 devices on boot. Most of the keyboards/mice/trackpads are/were usb1 devices. USB1 doesn't support mass storage. USB2 does. I'm still not sure the firmware update
fixes it but some guy made that theory and it made sense at the time.

But I never could understand why placing a working/bootable device into it would fix the problem, even if you aren't booting from it.

Also, here is more details about the "osx could not be installed" error, if
you run across it. Its for an older update (el capitan) but the same for
what you are doing.

http://www.davidhill.co/2016/06/os-x-could-not-be-installed-on-your-computer-el-capitan/

The date reset is a bit tricky because of the format needed.

Same trick works on expired bundles and images.

-bruce
bje@ripco.com



--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

On 2020-11-29 11:22, bje@ripco.com wrote:

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

Got it. Yep. That seems to be correct. Not sure if that's because the
USB is not on or some other issue, however.

Well here's a mindfuck for you.

Really? Is this the way you communicate?

Put the original drive back in and insert the usb drive.

Now boot holding the option key.

Shows up doesn't it?

Boot normally, settings -> startup disk.

Shows up too, right?

Reboot and it'll boot from the stick just fine.

Just quit the installer and reboot.

Now put the new drive in and try all of the above.

No workie, right?

With the new drive in the machine, command-r on boot, quit the installer and go up to the menu for the Utilities.

usb stick shows up.

selcet it, now reboot, usb stick no longer workie.

I'm not disbelieving you on what is going on. However I can confirm, absolutely, that USB is on since my Bluetooth Keyboard is working and
that routes via the USB h/w. USB h/w reported on the system is USB 2.0
and USB 3.0.
That's not to say the system is connecting to USB in that state.

Alan I'm not trying to pull your dick, I went through this nearly exactly last summer and took two days to figure out what was going on. If I'm not mistaken, it's a firmware update that you are missing.

I don't think that at all. I appreciate all that you've posted and I
will be trying the disable WiFi path - though not sure how to turn it
off when in recovery mode... if I turn off the home WiFi network the
computer will still see the neighbor's... I could disconnect the
antennas inside the Mac since I'll be in there in any case.

FW update?

I just retried updating the Hard Disk install to the latest Catalina
using the usual internet DL manner. (Not USB).
No go. Spits up some disk error:
imac "Storage system verify or repair failed. : (-69716)"
Which is the same when I initially tried to go from Mojave to Catalina
back around .1 or .2. Attempts to repair that never got anywhere in the
past.

I'll try again (again on the HD, not the SSD) this afternoon from the
USB installer.

I sort of remembered once I got past the clock error thing, it had to reboot two or three times for everything to finish. One of those times was
definetly a firmware update. I never went back to check.

All it comes down to is, your machine without a bootable drive will not turn on usb or be able to boot from the usb ports.

And to the fucktard, yes, the keyboard and mouse via usb will work fine, but then, they aren't bootable devices, are they?

And that actually might be what I ran across while searching for an answer
to this, it's something with the handshaking for usb1/usb2 devices on boot. Most of the keyboards/mice/trackpads are/were usb1 devices. USB1 doesn't support mass storage. USB2 does. I'm still not sure the firmware update
fixes it but some guy made that theory and it made sense at the time.

But I never could understand why placing a working/bootable device into it would fix the problem, even if you aren't booting from it.

Also, here is more details about the "osx could not be installed" error, if you run across it. Its for an older update (el capitan) but the same for
what you are doing.

http://www.davidhill.co/2016/06/os-x-could-not-be-installed-on-your-computer-el-capitan/

I'll look at that. I've seen the date 'trick' mentioned elsewhere too.


--
"...there are many humorous things in this world; among them the white
man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
-Samuel Clemens
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <DaQwH.88118$E_5.38879@fx10.iad>, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

Put the original drive back in and insert the usb drive.

Now boot holding the option key.

Shows up doesn't it?

Boot normally, settings -> startup disk.

Shows up too, right?

Reboot and it'll boot from the stick just fine.

Just quit the installer and reboot.

Now put the new drive in and try all of the above.

No workie, right?

With the new drive in the machine, command-r on boot, quit the installer and
go up to the menu for the Utilities.

usb stick shows up.

selcet it, now reboot, usb stick no longer workie.

I'm not disbelieving you on what is going on. However I can confirm, absolutely, that USB is on since my Bluetooth Keyboard is working and
that routes via the USB h/w. USB h/w reported on the system is USB 2.0
and USB 3.0.
That's not to say the system is connecting to USB in that state.

usb isn't the issue and is obviously working perfectly fine.

Alan I'm not trying to pull your dick, I went through this nearly exactly last summer and took two days to figure out what was going on. If I'm not mistaken, it's a firmware update that you are missing.

I don't think that at all. I appreciate all that you've posted and I
will be trying the disable WiFi path - though not sure how to turn it
off when in recovery mode... if I turn off the home WiFi network the computer will still see the neighbor's... I could disconnect the
antennas inside the Mac since I'll be in there in any case.

wifi is irrelevant.

FW update?

also not relevant.

I just retried updating the Hard Disk install to the latest Catalina
using the usual internet DL manner. (Not USB).
No go. Spits up some disk error:
imac "Storage system verify or repair failed. : (-69716)"
Which is the same when I initially tried to go from Mojave to Catalina
back around .1 or .2. Attempts to repair that never got anywhere in the past.

how did you format it?

Also, here is more details about the "osx could not be installed" error, if you run across it. Its for an older update (el capitan) but the same for what you are doing.

http://www.davidhill.co/2016/06/os-x-could-not-be-installed-on-your-computer-el-capitan/

I'll look at that. I've seen the date 'trick' mentioned elsewhere too.

that's due to an expired certificate and should not affect catalina.

the issue is the drive format and/or fusion.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

On 2020-11-29 14:02, nospam wrote:

In article <DaQwH.88118$E_5.38879@fx10.iad>, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

Put the original drive back in and insert the usb drive.

Now boot holding the option key.

Shows up doesn't it?

Boot normally, settings -> startup disk.

Shows up too, right?

Reboot and it'll boot from the stick just fine.

Just quit the installer and reboot.

Now put the new drive in and try all of the above.

No workie, right?

With the new drive in the machine, command-r on boot, quit the installer and
go up to the menu for the Utilities.

usb stick shows up.

selcet it, now reboot, usb stick no longer workie.

I'm not disbelieving you on what is going on. However I can confirm,
absolutely, that USB is on since my Bluetooth Keyboard is working and
that routes via the USB h/w. USB h/w reported on the system is USB 2.0
and USB 3.0.
That's not to say the system is connecting to USB in that state.

usb isn't the issue and is obviously working perfectly fine.

Alan I'm not trying to pull your dick, I went through this nearly exactly >>> last summer and took two days to figure out what was going on. If I'm not >>> mistaken, it's a firmware update that you are missing.

I don't think that at all. I appreciate all that you've posted and I
will be trying the disable WiFi path - though not sure how to turn it
off when in recovery mode... if I turn off the home WiFi network the
computer will still see the neighbor's... I could disconnect the
antennas inside the Mac since I'll be in there in any case.

wifi is irrelevant.

Possibly relevant. During a boot sequence where I want it to go to the
USB drive, it instead only offers to connect to Wifi. Real PITA. IIRC
I can leave it like that for a couple minutes then it sees the new SSD
drive but not the USB attached drive.

FW update?

also not relevant.

Good.

I just retried updating the Hard Disk install to the latest Catalina
using the usual internet DL manner. (Not USB).
No go. Spits up some disk error:
imac "Storage system verify or repair failed. : (-69716)"
Which is the same when I initially tried to go from Mojave to Catalina
back around .1 or .2. Attempts to repair that never got anywhere in the
past.

how did you format it?

Back then? I don't recall. My Mac HD is currently APFS - and I have no
idea how/when it got changed from HFS+ ... I did do a clean install
back a few years but was pretty sure it was pre APFS.

Also, here is more details about the "osx could not be installed" error, if >>> you run across it. Its for an older update (el capitan) but the same for >>> what you are doing.

http://www.davidhill.co/2016/06/os-x-could-not-be-installed-on-your-computer-el-capitan/

I'll look at that. I've seen the date 'trick' mentioned elsewhere too.

that's due to an expired certificate and should not affect catalina.

the issue is the drive format and/or fusion.

I suspect strongly it's fusion since repairs to the volume come up "ok"
but the same error (above) keeps returning. If there were some simple
way to disable Fusion I'd do that. Won't be needing it.

Is it soldered to the logic board?

--
"...there are many humorous things in this world; among them the white
man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
-Samuel Clemens
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <ZCSwH.23424$nc.4065@fx19.iad>, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

wifi is irrelevant.

Possibly relevant. During a boot sequence where I want it to go to the
USB drive, it instead only offers to connect to Wifi. Real PITA. IIRC
I can leave it like that for a couple minutes then it sees the new SSD
drive but not the USB attached drive.

wifi is not relevant to an install failure.

the issue is the drive format and/or fusion.

I suspect strongly it's fusion since repairs to the volume come up "ok"
but the same error (above) keeps returning. If there were some simple
way to disable Fusion I'd do that. Won't be needing it.

<https://www.lifewire.com/split-fusion-drive-apart-2260166> <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207584>
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In message <VyOwH.33596$NL3.17439@fx12.iad> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

On 2020-11-29 00:33, Lewis wrote:

Replacing the SSD module on the 2012 iMac requires removing just about

er, not what I was doing though. I was replacing the HD.

Ah, I thought you were replacing the SSD. The HD is much easier. Carry
on.

--
"Last night - you were unhinged. You were like some desperate,
howling demon. You frightened me. - Do it again!"
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

On 2020-11-29 10:17, nospam wrote:

if that were the case, the keyboard would not work, as it too uses usb.

Including a USB disk device in list of bootable environments != seeing
a keyboard or mouse.


The console looks at bootable media based on some logic. It is quite
possible that when powering up with a key pressed, the logic is
different and the list of bootable drives is more limited.

--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <K_TwH.30898$sB6.9684@fx34.iad>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

if that were the case, the keyboard would not work, as it too uses usb.

Including a USB disk device in list of bootable environments != seeing
a keyboard or mouse.

the claim was that usb was not initialized. that is demonstrably false.

The console looks at bootable media based on some logic. It is quite
possible that when powering up with a key pressed, the logic is
different and the list of bootable drives is more limited.

no.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

On 2020-11-29 16:04, nospam wrote:

the claim was that usb was not initialized. that is demonstrably false.

My point was that the two are not irreconciliable. USB may be
initialized, but the console may be set to not look at USB drives for
bootable media.

However, the whole point of the ALT key startup (Startup Manager) is to
choose a boot drive, so one would think this is one area where all
drives would be made available.

One possibility is that the USB drive is seen by the console but for
some reason not recognized as a bootable drive.

How the EFI console loads an OS from USB drive may have enough
differences that mean how that specific USB drive was formatted makes it unbootable. (GPY/GUID partitioning? is there an EFI partition? or the
boot drive HFS or APFS on the USB drive?

When you boot recovery, you are booting an instance of OS-X, so it has
much mroe versatility in seeing contents of drives than the EFI
firmware. It can see the drive see that it has the right files etc, but
it is conceivable that when the system powers up, even if told to boot
from that USB key, that it may not have the logic to find the boot block
on it.

This is just a theory, but if a person says the USB isn't offered as
bootable drive in Startup Optiosn, but is as Recovery, this could be an explanation.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <dv%wH.215919$oL7.86074@fx06.iad>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

the claim was that usb was not initialized. that is demonstrably false.

My point was that the two are not irreconciliable. USB may be
initialized, but the console may be set to not look at USB drives for bootable media.

as usual, you're wrong.

However, the whole point of the ALT key startup (Startup Manager) is to choose a boot drive, so one would think this is one area where all
drives would be made available.

they're not.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

I suspect strongly it's fusion since repairs to the volume come up "ok"
but the same error (above) keeps returning. If there were some simple
way to disable Fusion I'd do that. Won't be needing it.

Is it soldered to the logic board?

Wait a minute, this machine you are trying to upgrade has a fusion drive?

You do know that means there are two drives in it, an ssd and a plain old mechanical one.

If so (and I don't know if the ssd is soldered in), what I'd do at this
point is just disconnect the mechanical one, boot the machine into command-r and use the disk utility in it to wipe and re-format the ssd.

You can control (create/destroy) the fusion drive from the command line.
Bunch of how to's around like this one:

https://www.lifewire.com/split-fusion-drive-apart-2260166

That is if the machine still boots at this point using the old hardware.

But really, are you sure it has a fusion drive in it?

-bruce
bje@ripco.com
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In message <dv%wH.215919$oL7.86074@fx06.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

On 2020-11-29 16:04, nospam wrote:

the claim was that usb was not initialized. that is demonstrably false.

My point was that the two are not irreconciliable. USB may be
initialized, but the console may be set to not look at USB drives for bootable media.

So, when you said USB was not initialized you were pulling things out of
your ass with no basis in fact whatsoever? Gosh, that doesn't sound like
you.

However, the whole point of the ALT key startup (Startup Manager) is to choose a boot drive, so one would think this is one area where all
drives would be made available.

All BOOT drives the System can see, yes. For example, during Big
Sur Beta if you booted into big sure, then rebooted with the option key
down you would see the Big Sur drive and all the other drives (Catalina, Mojave, and my spare Mojave install, for example). If I booted into
Catalina and then rebooted with the option key down, I would see the
Catalina and Mojave Drives and not the Big Sur drive, just another
choice "EFI boot"

Selecting that option, would reboot the computer, then reboot the
computer AGAIN into Big Sur.

That is not the case on the release version of Big Sur, of course.

One possibility is that the USB drive is seen by the console but for
some reason not recognized as a bootable drive.

So the opposite of what you claimed was happening.

When you boot recovery, you are booting an instance of OS-X

There is still no such thing as "OS-X" and never has been and no
version of "OS X" or "Mac OS X" runs on current hardware.

--
she [Esk] was already learning that if you ignore the rules people
will, half the time, quietly rewrite them so they don't apply to
you. --Equal Rites
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <slrnrs9tgp.2env.g.kreme@claragold.local>, Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

the claim was that usb was not initialized. that is demonstrably false.

My point was that the two are not irreconciliable. USB may be
initialized, but the console may be set to not look at USB drives for bootable media.

So, when you said USB was not initialized you were pulling things out of
your ass with no basis in fact whatsoever? Gosh, that doesn't sound like
you.

someone else claimed usb wasn't initialized. jf went along with the
stupidity.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

On 2020-11-30 07:03, bje@ripco.com wrote:

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

I suspect strongly it's fusion since repairs to the volume come up "ok"
but the same error (above) keeps returning. If there were some simple
way to disable Fusion I'd do that. Won't be needing it.

Is it soldered to the logic board?

Wait a minute, this machine you are trying to upgrade has a fusion drive?

Yes. I thought that was in the original post, but I guess not.

You do know that means there are two drives in it, an ssd and a plain old mechanical one.

Yep.

If so (and I don't know if the ssd is soldered in), what I'd do at this
point is just disconnect the mechanical one, boot the machine into command-r and use the disk utility in it to wipe and re-format the ssd.

I believe it is soldered in. When I had the logic board out (to repair
the stand spring) I neglected to look for it. Were it a plug in it
would have been obvious. Soldered, maybe. I won't take out the logic
board again unless really needed. It's a tedious thing to do.

You can control (create/destroy) the fusion drive from the command line. Bunch of how to's around like this one:

https://www.lifewire.com/split-fusion-drive-apart-2260166

Yes. I've seen that. Not going there if there is a straighter path
such as installing to the SSD externally (USB disk cradle) then
transplant it into the iMac. If the fusion portion then appears as a
128 GB "freebie" to be re-purposed as a scratch disk, fine. If I lose
it, fine.

That is if the machine still boots at this point using the old hardware.

But really, are you sure it has a fusion drive in it?

Absolutely. Indeed if I boot recovery I see my accounts (Admin, me)
with SSD as yet not set up as system (or anything).

Thanks again. I may not get back to this until the weekend.


--
"...there are many humorous things in this world; among them the white
man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
-Samuel Clemens
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

On 2020-11-30 08:39, Lewis wrote:

So, when you said USB was not initialized

I am not the one who claimed USB was not initialized.

I was countering the argument someone else to prove UBS was initialized
since keyboard works. My answer was that it was possible for USB to be initialized but for the boot console to not offer those drives. (which
would explain the behavious the OP saw).

All BOOT drives the System can see, yes.

Although not the case on a 2012 machine, those with T2 or Secure Enclase
will not offer external boot drives unless you have first disabled
secure boot. Another example of a machine seeing those drives but not
offering them as bootable option.

Also not clear to me what sort of format is needed to boot from USB
(GPY? EFI partition present? etc). USB drives are different beasts
because of they are accessed in a very different way.

Mojave, and my spare Mojave install, for example). If I booted into
Catalina and then rebooted with the option key down, I would see the
Catalina and Mojave Drives and not the Big Sur drive, just another
choice "EFI boot"

At the time APFS was introduced, the EFI firmwars assumed one bootable
volume per GPT partition, so would look at a "bootable signatute" in
specific block to inow if bootable and where to fetch boot block.

So it could only boot one OS per GPT partition.

If the firmware is updated, that the Startup would have knowledge on how
to parse APFS volumes inside a GPT partition to find bootable APFS
volumes and if selected, would then update the blessed block at the top
of the GPT partition.

I do not understand that if your last boot was Catalina, Startup
Options would show Cataloina and odler partitions, but not Big Sur. If
it is able to parse within an APFS container, it should find all
bootable APFS volumes inside the APFS container, as well as all botable
GPT partitions (with HFS+ volume. Last resilt, it boots the EFI
partition which will then have code to decide what OS to load.




--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In message <xshxH.157693$xe4.6467@fx41.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

On 2020-11-30 08:39, Lewis wrote:

All BOOT drives the System can see, yes.

Although not the case on a 2012 machine, those with T2 or Secure Enclase
will not offer external boot drives unless you have first disabled
secure boot. Another example of a machine seeing those drives but not offering them as bootable option.

As I said, all boot drives the system can see.

Also not clear to me what sort of format is needed to boot from USB

Of course it is not, as this is something that is documented and well
known, so well belong your abilities.

At the time APFS was introduced, the EFI firmwars assumed one bootable
volume per GPT partition, so would look at a "bootable signatute" in
specific block to inow if bootable and where to fetch boot block.

I don't think this is true. I could waste my time and ask for you to
cite your references, but everyone knows you won't do that. I have had
multiple boot partitions on APFS for quite some time, but sure it is
possible that at one point early one only one boot partition was
supported.

I do not understand that if your last boot was Catalina, Startup
Options would show Cataloina and odler partitions, but not Big Sur.

I am not surprised that you do not understand. Hint, BETA is an
important word in my original post.

it is able to parse within an APFS container, it should find all
bootable APFS volumes inside the APFS container, as well as all botable
GPT partitions (with HFS+ volume. Last resilt, it boots the EFI
partition which will then have code to decide what OS to load.

You again demonstrate that you do not, despite all your posturing,
know anything at all about the subject at hand.

--
Can I tell you the truth? I mean this isn't like TV news, is it?
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

On 2020-12-01 01:10, Lewis wrote:

As I said, all boot drives the system can see.

The OP stated that when powering up in a certain mode USB drivces are
not seen. I am trying to find exolanation, you are trying to insult.

Also not clear to me what sort of format is needed to boot from USB

Of course it is not, as this is something that is documented and well
known, so well belong your abilities.

So perhaps you could help the OP and stated what USB stick formats are
needed to succesfully boot from. GPT, EFI partition etc.

I don't think this is true. I could waste my time and ask for you to
cite your references, but everyone knows you won't do that.

There was a mention at WWDC during one session when APFS was introduced.
The EFI still looks for a bootable HFS+ volume in a GPT partition.
(aka, look for a certain signature in block 0, but there is a backup
block at other end of GPT partition).
=

When the GPT partition contains an APFS container, that container could
contain multple bootable APFS volumes. However, the APFS system
supports the same HFS+ boot block structure and location within the GPT partition. In principle, when you use System Preferences to set boot
volume, it writes your APFS volume boot information in block 0 of the
GPT partition where HFS+ would have its boot block. (so only one
bootable system in each GPT partition).

In practice, the boot block loaded by EFI contains not the OS-X boot
block, but boot block for a mini OS loader which is APFS aware and can
thus see multile bootable volumes inside the APFS container. This
software also handles prompting for password when the volume you are
booting from is encrypted.

Consider when you boot recovery mode. the EFI sees the GPT partition,
loads its boot block, branches to it. That boot loader then sees uyou
pressed command R and parses the APFS volume to find the recovery APFS partition in the APFS container and then loads it.

You again demonstrate that you do not, despite all your posturing,
know anything at all about the subject at hand.

And you demonstrate you have no willingness to contribute and help
people in this newsgroup. Your sole goal is to throw gratuitous insults
and lie.

--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In message <hsoxH.50155$lP1.12633@fx37.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

On 2020-12-01 01:10, Lewis wrote:

As I said, all boot drives the system can see.

The OP stated that when powering up in a certain mode USB drivces are
not seen. I am trying to find exolanation, you are trying to insult.

No, you are MAKING UP FUD and MISLEADING and CONFUSING and proving no
useful information at all, since you "suppositions" are based on total ignorance.

Also not clear to me what sort of format is needed to boot from USB

Of course it is not, as this is something that is documented and well
known, so well belong your abilities.

So perhaps you could help the OP and stated what USB stick formats are
needed to succesfully boot from. GPT, EFI partition etc.

macOS installers include a tool to create a bootable USB image that will install the OS, so it is trivial for you to actually find this out on
your own.

<https://www.google.com/search?q=create+usb+installer+site:apple.com>

I don't think this is true. I could waste my time and ask for you to
cite your references, but everyone knows you won't do that.

There was a mention at WWDC during one session when APFS was introduced.

That's not a cite.

The EFI still looks for a bootable HFS+ volume in a GPT partition.
(aka, look for a certain signature in block 0, but there is a backup
block at other end of GPT partition).

ALL GPT disks look at block 0. That has nothing to do with APFS.

When the GPT partition contains an APFS container, that container could contain multple bootable APFS volumes.

But you said that APFS did not support multiple boot volumes, so this is irrelevant.

In practice, the boot block loaded by EFI contains not the OS-X boot

Still no such thing as "OS-X" and still no modern hardware runs any
version of the old "OS X". Try to get somethings right.

And no, block 0 does not contain an OS X boot block. Maybe you have
confused the block 0 of the APFS partition which is, of course, not
block 0 of the container nor block 0 of the disk. But even so, that
block contains a copy of the CONTAINER's superblock, so what you are
talking about is wrong in the sense that you;'re lack of understanding
and precision has led you to post nonsensical blathering that provides
no actual useful information.

<https://developer.apple.com/support/downloads/Apple-File-System-Reference.pdf> 1. Read physical block zero from the partition. This block contains a
copy of the container superblock, which is an instance of
nx_superblock_t.

2. Read the nx_o field of the superblock, which is an instance of
obj_phys_t. Then read the o_cksum field of the nx_o field of the
superblock, which contains the Fletcher 64 checksum of the object.
Verify that the checksum is correct.

3. Read the nx_magicfield of the superblock. Verify that the fieldʼs
value is NX_MAGIC (the four-character code 'BSXN').

4. Read the nx_efi_jumpstart field of the superblock. This field
contains the physical block address (also referred to as the physical
object identifier) for the EFI jumpstart information, which is an
instance of nx_efi_jumpstart_t.

And so on through 11 total steps.

You again demonstrate that you do not, despite all your posturing,
know anything at all about the subject at hand.

And you demonstrate you have no willingness to contribute and help
people in this newsgroup.

No, that is what you do. Spread bullshit, lies, disinformation, FUD, and
when you mange to spew something that is somewhat correct, you manage to
get it fucked up by your total inability to be precise and get the
details actually correct. At the very best, you have a very facile understanding of anything having to do with computers newer than 1990,
and that is you at your BEST. At your usual, it's just a steaming pile
of fetid feces that you continue to spew at a constant rate.


--
I do believe Marsellus Wallace, my husband, your boss, told you to
take *me* out and do *whatever I wanted*. Now I wanna dance, I
wanna win. I want that trophy, so dance good.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

On 2020-12-01 05:36, Lewis wrote:

The OP stated that when powering up in a certain mode USB drivces are
not seen. I am trying to find exolanation, you are trying to insult.

No, you are MAKING UP FUD and MISLEADING and CONFUSING and proving no
useful information at all,

So you are denying that the OP stated that his USB wasn't seen as bootable?

ALL GPT disks look at block 0. That has nothing to do with APFS.

the EFI standard is for EFI to load a EFI program in tghe EFI partition,
and that program then knows how to access the OS,s file system and fetch
the boot block.

In the case of VMS on Intanium, EFI had no knowledge of the ODS-2 or
PDS-5 file systems, that logic was in the the EFI program which knew how
to access the colume and located the boot file.

The EFI partition must be FAT file systyem because you can get EFI to
boot from a named program within the EFI partition at which point EFI
knows how to parte the FAT file system to find that file.


Apple extended its EFI to boot directly without requiring a trip through
the EFI partition. This extension added logic to understand the
structure of data in block 0 (and another backup one towards the end as
I recall) and fetch the boot loader executable and branch to it.

When Apple moved to APFS, it ensured that the APFS container appeared as
an HFS+ one to the EFI firmware at boot time by having compatible
structiures in block 0. But this limits EFI as was originally coded to
seeing the partition containing APFS volume as bootable of not. Unless
logic was added to EFI firmware to understand APFS container contents to
see multiple APFS volumes, it can,t know about them.

The other way to do this is to boot into small program that does
understand APFS and will show you multiple volumes within the APFS
partition and will let you choose one and I would assume then updates
block 0 to point to it for next boot and then branches to it.

So this doesn't explain why the OP would see the disk but not the USB
bootable drive. I would ASSUME that the boot volume selection code would
look at all drives and not just the one APFS container it booted from.

But you said that APFS did not support multiple boot volumes, so this is irrelevant.

No. I said EFI as originally implemnented by Apple only saw 1 bootable
volume in a GPT partition if its block 0 container the right HFS+ boot signature. So APFS, despite having multiple bootable APFS volumes in
its container, can only point to one at a time in block 0.

--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <nuFxH.112116$J92.11308@fx48.iad>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

In the case of VMS on Intanium,

fail
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In message <nuFxH.112116$J92.11308@fx48.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

On 2020-12-01 05:36, Lewis wrote:

The OP stated that when powering up in a certain mode USB drivces are
not seen. I am trying to find exolanation, you are trying to insult.

No, you are MAKING UP FUD and MISLEADING and CONFUSING and proving no
useful information at all,

So you are denying that the OP stated that his USB wasn't seen as bootable?

ALL GPT disks look at block 0. That has nothing to do with APFS.

the EFI standard is for EFI to load a EFI program in tghe EFI partition,
and that program then knows how to access the OS,s file system and fetch
the boot block.

The all start by reading block 0. You obviously did not read the Apple
PDF that lays out how the boot process works, probably because it was
too complicated for you.

In the case of VMS

Nope nope nope.


--
Nine-tenths of the universe is the knowledge of the position and
direction of everything in the other tenth. Every atom has its
biography, every star its file, every chemical exchange its
equivalent of the inspector with a clipboard. It is unaccounted
for because it is doing the accounting for the rest of it.
Nine-tenths of the universe, in fact, is the paperwork. --The
Thief of Time
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

On 2020-12-02 05:34, Lewis wrote:

the EFI standard is for EFI to load a EFI program in tghe EFI partition,
and that program then knows how to access the OS,s file system and fetch
the boot block.

The all start by reading block 0. You obviously did not read the Apple
PDF

I will repeat: Apple extended the EFI firmware to have ability to boot
directly from an HFS+ drive by looking at block 0 for HFS+ data
structure to allow booting.

This is NOT part of EFI standard (but the standard allows for
extensions). I pointed to the VMS example to show that EFI was
developped to boot any/all operatings systems irrespective of the boot
volume's format and this is why ther is an EFI partition to load an
operating system-specific boot loader which can parse the boot volume's
format. (for VMS it was ODS-2 or ODS-5 instead of HFS or APFS)

Apple essentially added to the core EFI formward the EFI logic that
would have been in the EFI program inside the EFI partition. So the EFI firmware can load OS-X directly without going through the EFI partition mechanism. The advantage of the EFI partition is that it makde it easy
to update the boot loader by updating files, vs having to do firmwar
upgrade with whatecer limited EPROM/NVRAM is available for the console.




--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In message <LRZxH.107481$sW6.35204@fx47.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

On 2020-12-02 05:34, Lewis wrote:

the EFI standard is for EFI to load a EFI program in tghe EFI partition, >>> and that program then knows how to access the OS,s file system and fetch >>> the boot block.

The all start by reading block 0. You obviously did not read the Apple
PDF

I will repeat: Apple extended the EFI firmware to have ability to boot directly from an HFS+ drive by looking at block 0 for HFS+ data
structure to allow booting.

I will repeat, you DID NOT READ THE PDF.

This is NOT part of EFI standard (but the standard allows for
extensions). I pointed to the VMS

Nope nope nope.

--
Looking into Granny's eyes was like looking into a mirror. What you
saw looking back at you was yourself, and there was no hiding
place.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

On 2020-12-03 00:45, Lewis wrote:

I will repeat: Apple extended the EFI firmware to have ability to boot
directly from an HFS+ drive by looking at block 0 for HFS+ data
structure to allow booting.

I will repeat, you DID NOT READ THE PDF.

I read it, which means you didn't.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

On 2020-12-03 8:34 p.m., JF Mezei wrote:

On 2020-12-03 00:45, Lewis wrote:

I will repeat: Apple extended the EFI firmware to have ability to boot
directly from an HFS+ drive by looking at block 0 for HFS+ data
structure to allow booting.

I will repeat, you DID NOT READ THE PDF.

I read it, which means you didn't.

Really?

What's the link?

I haven't read it, and I'm willing to bet that you're full of it.


:-)
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

On 2020-12-04 02:04, Alan Baker wrote:

Really?

What's the link?

I haven't read it, and I'm willing to bet that you're full of it.

As per what Lewis posted a few days ago in this thread.

<https://developer.apple.com/support/downloads/Apple-File-System-Reference.pdf>

--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113