From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

I'm sick to death of Microsucks. Linux Linspire is slower than
molasses in January, plus gets quickly bogged down online, requires
restarting computer to clear up.
I really need something that just works. I don't want to change oil
and do a tune up every time I drive my car, I don't want to spend an
hour trying to get my computer to work every time I turn it on.
You will probably be able to guess the kind of advice I've gotten in
the past. Please forgive me if I sound a little testy.

Here are the hang-ups:
1. Where I live, in the middle of nowhere, the ONLY high-speed
provider available is absurdly expensive, so I have only dial-up as
an option. I already understand that this isn't as fast as DSL or
WIFI, but since I don't have any choice, I really don't need to be
told to try those instead. Let's skip that part, ok?
The main problem isn't that my connection lacks lightening speed,
it's that both my OS's suck.
2. Where I live, in the middle of nowhere, we have frequent power
outages. This means I can't just leave my machine on all the time. I
have to turn it off when I'm not using it. I don't really care if the
boot-time is a little slow, as long as the machine actually works
right after I boot up.
3. I am not a computer tech. This doesn't make me an idiot, but if I
ask what time it is, I don't need an explanation of how to build a
watch. If I ask how to build a watch, an answer such as "First,
build a movement, then build a case for it." doesn't really help
much, either.
4. I need to be able to set up a website and work on it website
quickly, easily, efficiently, and without my computer either
crashing or freezing up.
5. I need to be able to design and print labels for my products,
without my machine crashing or freezing up.
6. I need to download and modify photos from my digital camera
easily, and use them to design labels for my products. Again, with
no crashes or freeze-ups.
7. I need to be able to keep business records.
8. I want to try to get some idea which Macs I should look at, it's a
150 mile round trip for me to go to the nearest city where I can do
this. If I have to rely entirely on a salesperson who wants a
commission for selling me an expensive system, I may never get
anything but screwed.
9. I like living in the middle of nowhere, so, no, I'm not going to
give up my nearly paid for farm and move to town, just to make using
computers easier.

I would really appreciate feedback on the ease of use and reliability
of various Macs. Thanks much.

* posted via http://www.mymac.ws
* please report abuse to http://xinbox.com/mymac
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <u1144962841@aknode.invalid>,
dancingbear7@earthlink-dot-net.no-spam.invalid (dancingbear) wrote:

Here are the hang-ups:
1. Where I live, in the middle of nowhere, the ONLY high-speed
provider available is absurdly expensive, so I have only dial-up as
an option. I already understand that this isn't as fast as DSL or
WIFI, but since I don't have any choice, I really don't need to be
told to try those instead. Let's skip that part, ok?
The main problem isn't that my connection lacks lightening speed,
it's that both my OS's suck.

I have news for you: all operating systems suck. All of them. It's
just that some suck a bit less. I prefer MacOS 8's interface, but Apple
went with NeXT's, so I live with it. It crashes rarely, is fairly easy
to use, and I can dig into it if/when I want to.

But then, I've not found Windows to crash much either. If you're
constantly downloading stuff off the net and installing it, you're going
to end up with a messed up system. It's best to figure out what you
want to *do* with your system (whichever it is), figure out which
software you're going to use, load it, and NEVER LOAD ANYTHING MORE.
Your system (whichever) will be more stable that way. I'm speaking as a system manager, here.

Also, make sure you've got good backups before installing anything from questionable sources, just in case. See what I've written on that last
bit at <http://www.shubs.net/backup.html> if you like.

2. Where I live, in the middle of nowhere, we have frequent power
outages. This means I can't just leave my machine on all the time. I
have to turn it off when I'm not using it. I don't really care if the boot-time is a little slow, as long as the machine actually works
right after I boot up.

Two answers for that: "okay fine" and, "have you every considered
getting a UPS?" :-D

3. I am not a computer tech. This doesn't make me an idiot, but if I
ask what time it is, I don't need an explanation of how to build a
watch. If I ask how to build a watch, an answer such as "First,
build a movement, then build a case for it." doesn't really help
much, either.

It's fairly difficult to determine a person's experience level and
interest over the net. You'll get those kinds of answers everywhere,
because we can't tell who we're dealing with here, and we're being paid
ZERO for helping. At least with Tech Support lines, their *job* is to
help you. Please keep all this in mind.

4. I need to be able to set up a website and work on it website
quickly, easily, efficiently, and without my computer either
crashing or freezing up.

Not a problem either on the Mac, or under Windows, or with Linux, in my experience. It depends a lot on how much programming you're willing to
do and what your requirements are for your website.

5. I need to be able to design and print labels for my products,
without my machine crashing or freezing up.

I've only done this with Mac software, so I can't speak about others.
I'm currently using "SOHO Labels & Envelopes"
<http://www.chronosnet.com/>. I've only used it for business cards so
far. I don't know how it'd deal with labels for a mail merge.

6. I need to download and modify photos from my digital camera
easily, and use them to design labels for my products. Again, with
no crashes or freeze-ups.

iPhoto may be enough for you, and it'll come free with a new Mac, or
maybe you need Adobe's Photoshop Elements (US$100 list), or maybe you
need the full version of Adobe Photoshop. Without knowing the kinds of
things you want to be able to do with your photographs, and what kind of photographs you make, it's difficult to answer. Perhaps you'd be happy
with Graphic Converter <http://www.lemkesoft.com/>, which is cheaper and
has capabilities I've not really tried out.

7. I need to be able to keep business records.

What sort? Checking accounts? Customer lists? Time tracking? More?
Other?

8. I want to try to get some idea which Macs I should look at, it's a
150 mile round trip for me to go to the nearest city where I can do
this. If I have to rely entirely on a salesperson who wants a
commission for selling me an expensive system, I may never get
anything but screwed.

Use a store which doesn't do commissions. I don't think CompUSA uses
such, but then they don't have much for sales staff either, in my
experience.

I need to know more about your requirements before I can recommend
anything. Are you going to do heavy graphics work? Going to crunch a
lot of numbers? Gonna play Unreal Tournament 2004 or Doom 3? Do you
want a large display? Multiple displays? What are your memory/disk requirements? How much custom software are you going to run, what does
it do, and how are you planning to get it to run on the Mac? And what's
your budget for this project?

9. I like living in the middle of nowhere, so, no, I'm not going to
give up my nearly paid for farm and move to town, just to make using computers easier.

Understood. I can imagine, after reading your list here, that you've encountered a lot of condescending people, or people you've seen as condescending. Hopefully, we can put an end to some of that here. Not
that we're perfect or whatever.

OTOH, remember that you're talking about effectively dumping all your
existing software and starting over. You might want to consider
straightening out your Windows box first, as at least you're familiar
with it. Or, if you're going to do this Mac thing regardless, you might
want to look at the books written for Switchers, to help make the
adjustment easier.

--
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams.
from "Ode", Arthur O'Shaughnessy
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <u1144962841@aknode.invalid>, dancingbear7@earthlink-dot- net.no-spam.invalid says...

I'm sick to death of Microsucks. Linux Linspire is slower than
molasses in January, plus gets quickly bogged down online, requires restarting computer to clear up.
I really need something that just works. I don't want to change oil
and do a tune up every time I drive my car, I don't want to spend an
hour trying to get my computer to work every time I turn it on.
You will probably be able to guess the kind of advice I've gotten in
the past. Please forgive me if I sound a little testy.

Just works? I cringe when I hear that. The truth is that you don't want
to spend any time learning how to use your computer. I support a lot of
users, so I know the type.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

dancingbear wrote:

I'm sick to death of Microsucks. Linux Linspire is slower than
molasses in January, plus gets quickly bogged down online, requires restarting computer to clear up.
I really need something that just works. I don't want to change oil
and do a tune up every time I drive my car, I don't want to spend an
hour trying to get my computer to work every time I turn it on.
You will probably be able to guess the kind of advice I've gotten in
the past. Please forgive me if I sound a little testy.

Wow, you've collected a couple of pretty cynical answers. What you need
now is an answer from someone who is a top expert in *using* Macs in
the everyday world, including the areas that you mentioned. Someone
who, like you, is not a computer tech and who doesn't want to be. That
would be me, at your service, sir.

At this point in Apple's transition to Intel processors you have only
two choices: a laptop (MacBook Pro) or a desktop (iMac). The
entry-level Mac Mini is not suited to your needs. I don't have either
of these (yet) among my collection of six OS X Macs, but I have helped
several first-time Mac users set them up. These folks didn't really
/need/ help, but they felt comfortable about having a Mac user nearby.
I have some hours of experience with both machines. They are, IMO, the
best computers in their respective classes available anywhere, at any
price, and I know whereof I speak in this regard.

Having decided whether you need a portable or a desktop Mac, you now
need to know that you should buy the highest-end model /that/ /you/
/can/ /afford/ . Buying less then you can afford makes no more sense
than buying more than you can afford because the more powerful the
system, the longer its useful life will be. If it's to be an iMac, get
the 20" if you can and load it with as much RAM as you can afford. If
it's to be a MacBook Pro load it with as much RAM as you can afford,
and the fastest HD available. If you are a military veteran, look into veteransadvantage.com. Joining gets you discounts at a number of
places, including the on-line Veterans Advantage Apple Store, where
prices are comparable to government or educational prices. You will
need to weigh the $40 annual fee (30-day free trial, hint, hint)
against your savings.

Living in a rural area and having to use a dial-up connection is not a
sign of moral turpitude. Au contraire. The disadvantage is that many
Mac software updates are very large, and some may be difficult or
impossible to download via a dial-up connection. An /occasional/ trip
to the Apple Store with your Mac, even if it is a 150 mile round trip,
would be useful. They will download upgrades at high speed at no charge
to you. You would not have to make such a trip very often because Macs
are probably the least vulnerable of any PC to invasions by viruses and malware, and using a dialup connection makes your Mac even more secure.
Thus, not installing every security update the minute it comes out is
not going to affect you.

As for the tasks that you named, the Mac is eminently suited to all of
these. It is as stable a computer as you can buy. For business records
I use Microsoft Excel for its elegant simplicity and power, and I also
use FileMaker Pro becuse it is highly capable in this area and it is
fairly easy for non-experts like you and me to customize it and create sophisticated business applications. Templates for FileMaker business
users abound.

Davoud

--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <u1144962841@aknode.invalid>,
dancingbear7@earthlink-dot-net.no-spam.invalid (dancingbear) wrote:

I'm sick to death of Microsucks. Linux Linspire is slower than
molasses in January, plus gets quickly bogged down online, requires restarting computer to clear up.
I really need something that just works. I don't want to change oil
and do a tune up every time I drive my car, I don't want to spend an
hour trying to get my computer to work every time I turn it on.
You will probably be able to guess the kind of advice I've gotten in
the past. Please forgive me if I sound a little testy.

You've received a lot of good advice from others here. Although you live
"in the middle of nowhere" (not a bad thing), is there a city within reasonable (to you) driving distance that has an Apple store? Do you
have a Mac user friend/relative who is knowledgeable enough to help you
make a choice? You could visit the store together and see the goods in
person, try some things out, etc.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <u1144962841@aknode.invalid>, dancingbear <dancingbear7@earthlink-dot-net.no-spam.invalid> wrote:

The main problem isn't that my connection lacks lightening speed,
it's that both my OS's suck.

They _all_ suck in various ways, even OS X. Some suck a lot worse
than others, on the average.

Where I live, in the middle of nowhere, we have frequent power
outages. This means I can't just leave my machine on all the time. I
have to turn it off when I'm not using it.

Same here, everything from a 2 second outage to a 2 day outage.

I want to try to get some idea which Macs I should look at, it's a
150 mile round trip for me to go to the nearest city where I can do
this.

For me, it is a 340 mile round trip, so know what you mean.

I'm sick to death of Microsucks.

I am not a big fan of Microsoft, but it does have strong points, such
as its business applications.

Macs can "do business" also, however not to the extent that PCs and
Windows can.

I would really appreciate feedback on the ease of use and reliability
of various Macs.

The ease of use and reliability of Macs and OS X are their strong
points, as compared against PCs and Windows.

As you imply, some Mac models have _slightly_ better reliability and
ease of use than other Mac models, however the entire line of Macs are
very reliable and easy to use, even this 7 year old "Lombard" powerbook
that I am using to write this post.

Presently, I own four Macs and one PC, having recently given away two
older PCs primarily because they could not use a modern Windows OS.

My Mac OSs range from the old OS 8.6 that I am using now, to the
present OS-10.4.6 that I am using with three of my Macs.

My lone remaining PC uses the XP Pro operating system.



Judging by the modest requirements that you listed, practically any Mac
model will suffice, even older used models such as my six year old
Pismo, if you can find one. They are scarce, because guys like me do
not want to part with them. BTW, my ancient 6 year old Pismo runs the
very latest Mac operating system 10.4.6

That said, if you prefer shiny and new, you will have to be prepared to
part with subtantial cash, anywhere from the $594 cost of the latest Intel-based Mac "Solo" with its modest 512 MB of RAM, to $25,000 for a
new "older model" G5 desktop Mac "quad" with 16 GB of RAM.

Most Mac users settle for the $1,000 to $2,000 range models.

There is no substitute for researching your expected needs ahead of
time, to see the very least hardware/software cost you can tolerate,
while _still_ being able to do everything you want to do with your
Mac and its software.

Beware going too cheap, however, and being stuck with a Mac model that
is too feeble to handle your expected tasks.

The digital handling of photo's is apt to make intensive demands on any
Mac model you buy.

Hopefully, someone else here might be able to give you some first-hand
advice as to whether the low range Macs would be able to handle digital
editing etc.

I need to be able to set up a website and work on it website
quickly, easily, efficiently, and without my computer either
crashing or freezing up.

There are a whole range of options available in that realm, everything
from a very high priced server Mac ($25,000 Xserver Mac, for example),
to a very low priced slow and low traffic volume website hosted by a
commercial web service, in your behalf. Such a slow and low volume
website of yours could be "operated" and serviced from the lowest
priced Mac.

You will have to be more explicit about what type of website you want,
before you will be able to determine which Mac model will be able to
handle your website.


Regarding another point. If you need to be able to power-up/power-off
your home Mac from the road, I can highly recommend a combination hardware/software product made by Sophisticated Circuits Inc., named
"PowerKey Pro model 650".

It runs on Macs only, not made for PCs - - - however your home Macs can
be used to turn-on/turn-off any home PCs you have, _if_ you have
remote control software installed on both the home Macs and home PCs.

Among other things PowerKey can do, if you happen to be flying over the Atlantic on Lufthansa airline, you can power-off/power-on your home
Macs directly from the aircraft.

Unfortunately, Lufthansa is the only airline at the present that has
inflight Internet access offered, at a slight added cost for the
ticket.

Coupled with fast remote-control software like the latest version of
Timbuktu, you could do such things as operate your home Mac, all from
the comfort of your airline seat.

Mark-
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <MPG.1ea97c5e20d662a7989681@news.newshosting.com>, Jim James <jim@nnnnnnnnn.com> wrote:

Just works?

That's what he said, he said that, that is what the man said. You
can't read?

I cringe when I hear that. The truth is that you don't want
to spend any time learning how to use your computer.

Oh so now you are a mind reader? The "truth" is that you don't know diddly-squat about what the OP does or does not want to learn.

I recognize your type, species "Opinionated Jackassites".

Mark-
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <u1144962841@aknode.invalid>, dancingbear <dancingbear7@earthlink-dot-net.no-spam.invalid> wrote:

4. I need to be able to set up a website and work on it website
quickly, easily, efficiently, and without my computer either
crashing or freezing up.
5. I need to be able to design and print labels for my products,
without my machine crashing or freezing up.
6. I need to download and modify photos from my digital camera
easily, and use them to design labels for my products. Again, with
no crashes or freeze-ups.
7. I need to be able to keep business records.
8. I want to try to get some idea which Macs I should look at

Based on the above I'd suggest you look at an iMac with an external USB
modem. A UPS will be useful if power outages are frequent. If you need
to work while the power is out, then I'd suggest a PowerBook or MacBook
(and an extra battery).

What software are you using now to design web sites, design and print
labels, and deal with photos?

Also, what printer are you currently using? There may or may not be
drivers in OS X for it if it's obscure or quite old.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

Davoud wrote:

Wow, you've collected a couple of pretty cynical answers. What you need
now is an answer from someone who is a top expert in *using* Macs in
the everyday world, including the areas that you mentioned. Someone
who, like you, is not a computer tech and who doesn't want to be. That
would be me, at your service, sir.

At this point in Apple's transition to Intel processors you have only
two choices: a laptop (MacBook Pro) or a desktop (iMac). The
entry-level Mac Mini is not suited to your needs.

Is every Mac Mini entry level? Why is it not suited to his needs?

I live in the sticks and chose the Mini because I value reliability and flexibility. I can use whatever keyboard, mouse, and display suit me.
If something goes wrong, I'll need only to substitute one
component, such as an OS X box, display, keyboard, mouse, external
drive, etc. Fixing an iMac or laptop could be a bigger obstacle.

Having decided whether you need a portable or a desktop Mac, you now
need to know that you should buy the highest-end model /that/ /you/
/can/ /afford/ . Buying less then you can afford makes no more sense
than buying more than you can afford because the more powerful the
system, the longer its useful life will be.

My last Mac was a base model that met my needs for ten years. If I'd
bought the top-of-the line model, I would have found it equally
unsatisfactory as the years passed.

I see a 2 gHz Macbook Pro is $2500. I gave Apple about $400 for a
refurbished 1.25 gHz Mini. Suppose I get ten years from my Mini.
Should I expect sixty years from a Macbook Pro? What if I drop it?
What about the display? The disk? the keyboard? Lightning?

Unforeseen technical developments can make older computers undesirable,
and a Mini can be replaced cheaper than a Macbook.

If it's to be an iMac, get
the 20" if you can and load it with as much RAM as you can afford. If

Isn't it cheaper to buy a Mini and a big LCD? It's also easier to
transport the Mini alone or the Mini and LCD in two pieces than an iMac.

it's to be a MacBook Pro load it with as much RAM as you can afford,
and the fastest HD available.

You pay all that money and end up with a compact keyboard and display.
If I bought an LCD it would be bigger. I like the price and
multi-resolution clarity of CRTs.

If you are a military veteran, look into
veteransadvantage.com. Joining gets you discounts at a number of
places, including the on-line Veterans Advantage Apple Store, where
prices are comparable to government or educational prices. You will
need to weigh the $40 annual fee (30-day free trial, hint, hint)
against your savings.

How did you find out about them? Apparently it isn't restricted to
veterans as long as you say you're one and pay their fee. That makes me suspicious. How could I tell without signing up what discounts I'd get?

Living in a rural area and having to use a dial-up connection is not a
sign of moral turpitude. Au contraire. The disadvantage is that many
Mac software updates are very large, and some may be difficult or
impossible to download via a dial-up connection. An /occasional/ trip
to the Apple Store with your Mac, even if it is a 150 mile round trip,
would be useful. They will download upgrades at high speed at no charge
to you. You would not have to make such a trip very often because Macs
are probably the least vulnerable of any PC to invasions by viruses and malware, and using a dialup connection makes your Mac even more secure.
Thus, not installing every security update the minute it comes out is
not going to affect you.

My Mini isn't much bigger than a sandwich. When I need high speed, I
take it to a house with DSL and plug in their ethernet, display,
keyboard, and mouse. If I want to send POP email, I tell Mail the name
of the DSL's SMTP server.

The OP said he is subject to power failures. After a storm, rural power
can be out for hours or days. Meanwhile, you can't transact business by
the internet, and you may want news.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~silasb/macbat/
That's an article by somebody who tried to contact Steve Jobs by trying
email addresses that might be his. He found a friendly Apple engineer
named Steve who told him the Mini will run on 10 - 20 VDC and draws only
1 or 2 amps. So in a power failure, the Mini could run many hours on a vehicle battery, or one from a riding mower. That interests me enough
that I may buy an LCD if it, too, will run on a 12 V battery without
drawing much current.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

You're looking for the solution to the wrong problem.
You have 2 problems, neither one being either system or computer.

1. Bad power:
You need a battery either inside (laptop) or nearby (UPS).
No other change can fix this, not even expensive changes.

2. Slow WAN connection:
Pay the "absurdly expensive" fee.
It's probably less than the cost of providing the service.

3. No money left for shiny new computer:
Keep what you have or get a used power-pc based Mac.
Anything at least 1Ghz, 1GB, 100GB will do.

--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

Davoud:

At this point in Apple's transition to Intel processors you have only
two choices: a laptop (MacBook Pro) or a desktop (iMac). The
entry-level Mac Mini is not suited to your needs.

Sawney Beane:

Is every Mac Mini entry level? Why is it not suited to his needs?

Every Mac Mini is an entry level computer. You may have taken that as
an insult to yourself or to the Mac Mini, or both, but it isn't. It's
just a statement of where Apple has placed the Mac Mini in its product
lineup. It isn't suited to the OP's needs because he needs a computer
for professional purposes, and his needs may grow. The Mac Mini would
be unlikely to have the horsepower to meet his needs. The MacBook Pro
or High-end iMac (still an entry-level machine of sorts, but the
distinction is blurred because it is very powerful) would likely
satisfy growing needs.

I live in the sticks and chose the Mini because I value reliability and flexibility. I can use whatever keyboard, mouse, and display suit me.
If something goes wrong, I'll need only to substitute one
component, such as an OS X box, display, keyboard, mouse, external
drive, etc. Fixing an iMac or laptop could be a bigger obstacle.

My last Mac was a base model that met my needs for ten years. If I'd
bought the top-of-the line model, I would have found it equally unsatisfactory as the years passed.

I see a 2 gHz Macbook Pro is $2500. I gave Apple about $400 for a refurbished 1.25 gHz Mini. Suppose I get ten years from my Mini.
Should I expect sixty years from a Macbook Pro? What if I drop it?
What about the display? The disk? the keyboard? Lightning?

Unforeseen technical developments can make older computers undesirable,
and a Mini can be replaced cheaper than a Macbook.

Isn't it cheaper to buy a Mini and a big LCD? It's also easier to
transport the Mini alone or the Mini and LCD in two pieces than an iMac.

You pay all that money and end up with a compact keyboard and display.
If I bought an LCD it would be bigger. I like the price and multi-resolution clarity of CRTs.

You pay all that money and end up with a compact keyboard and display.
If I bought an LCD it would be bigger. I like the price and multi-resolution clarity of CRTs.

Be my guest. I think you've lost sight of the fact that I wasn't
responding to /your/ needs, but to those of the OP. And I am now
/convinced/ that you took my statement that the Mac Mini is an
entry-level machine to be an insult to yourself or the Mac Mini, or
both. It was not. One buys the computer that serves one's needs, and if
that's a Mac Mini, you're lucky, not cursed.

If you are a military veteran, look into
veteransadvantage.com. Joining gets you discounts at a number of
places, including the on-line Veterans Advantage Apple Store, where
prices are comparable to government or educational prices. You will
need to weigh the $40 annual fee (30-day free trial, hint, hint)
against your savings.

How did you find out about them? Apparently it isn't restricted to
veterans as long as you say you're one and pay their fee. That makes me suspicious. How could I tell without signing up what discounts I'd get?

Did you visit the Veterans Advantage web site? I learned about Veterans Advantage from a satisfied member. As for lying about being a veteran,
that's pretty low stuff -- Bush level, and you can't get much lower
than that.

Davoud

U.S. Air Force, 1962-1970

--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

In article <210420061330295793%star@sky.net>, Davoud <star@sky.net>
wrote:

Did you visit the Veterans Advantage web site? I learned about
Veterans Advantage from a satisfied member.

They charge $4.95 for the 30-day "free" trial membership, and want
credit card information up front. No thanks.

--
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
--- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113