• Mixing Airport (11mbps) and Airport Extreme (54mbps)

    From Earle Jones@earle.jones@comcast.net to comp.sys.mac.system on Saturday, April 08, 2006 10:10:11
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

    *
    I want to add an Apple Airport Extreme Base Station as a wireless
    router for two machines:  My new Intel iMac, which has an airport
    extreme card inside, and my old G4/400 (AGP) which can only use the
    older Airport card.

    Will the presence of the older Airport card (11mbps) affect the
    speed of my iMac and Airport Extreme (54mbps)?

    Thanks in advance!

    earle
    *
    --- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From David Magda@dmagda+trace050401@ee.ryerson.ca to comp.sys.mac.system on Saturday, April 08, 2006 14:28:01
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

    Earle Jones <earle.jones@comcast.net> writes:

    Will the presence of the older Airport card (11mbps) affect the
    speed of my iMac and Airport Extreme (54mbps)?

    Well, both 11Mb/s (802.11b) and and 54Mb/s (11g) use the 2.4GHz
    frequency range (as do many cordless phones), so there may be some
    radio interface that will slow things down.

    Other than that, make sure that the network name (i.e., SSID) is
    different for the slow and fast networks. If both types of devices are
    on the same network than the 11g devices will slow down so that the
    11b ones can talk with them.

    --
    David Magda <dmagda at ee.ryerson.ca>
    Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under
    the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well
    under the new. -- Niccolo Machiavelli, _The Prince_, Chapter VI
    --- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Tom Stiller@tomstiller@comcast.net to comp.sys.mac.system on Saturday, April 08, 2006 15:52:25
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

    In article <m2k69z7wi6.fsf@gandalf.local>,
    David Magda <dmagda+trace050401@ee.ryerson.ca> wrote:

    Earle Jones <earle.jones@comcast.net> writes:

    Will the presence of the older Airport card (11mbps) affect the
    speed of my iMac and Airport Extreme (54mbps)?

    Well, both 11Mb/s (802.11b) and and 54Mb/s (11g) use the 2.4GHz
    frequency range (as do many cordless phones), so there may be some
    radio interface that will slow things down.

    Other than that, make sure that the network name (i.e., SSID) is
    different for the slow and fast networks. If both types of devices are
    on the same network than the 11g devices will slow down so that the
    11b ones can talk with them.

    It's not clear that the OP is going to have two base stations. It
    sounds like he is asking if he can have a mix of 802.11 b and 802.11g
    clients on one network and if the presence of the slower client will
    adversely affect the faster one. If I'm correct, the answer is "yes"
    but not to the extent of pulling the 54 Mb/sec transfers down to 11
    Mb/sec

    --
    Tom Stiller

    PGP fingerprint = 5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3
    7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF
    --- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Davoud@star@sky.net to comp.sys.mac.system on Saturday, April 08, 2006 22:35:03
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

    Tom Stiller wrote:

    It's not clear that the OP is going to have two base stations. It
    sounds like he is asking if he can have a mix of 802.11 b and 802.11g clients on one network and if the presence of the slower client will adversely affect the faster one. If I'm correct, the answer is "yes"
    but not to the extent of pulling the 54 Mb/sec transfers down to 11
    Mb/sec.

    I'm quite certain that you are correct.

    Here's what I don't know: I have a similar situation -- six Macs and a
    PeeCee on the AirPort Extreme network. All are 802.11g except one of
    the Macs, an older PowerBook with an 802.11b card hanging off the side.

    Does the network slow down /only/ when the 802.11b card is active, i.e,
    does it automatically return to its maximum possible speed when that
    card is taken out of the loop because the older Mac is put to sleep or
    turned off? Or is it necessary to take some action -- restart the
    AirPort Extreme Base Station, e.g. -- to get back to full speed?

    Thanks,

    Davoud

    --
    usenet *at* davidillig dawt com
    --- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Madwen@invalid@nospam.com to comp.sys.mac.system on Saturday, April 08, 2006 21:57:13
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

    In article <m2k69z7wi6.fsf@gandalf.local>,
    David Magda <dmagda+trace050401@ee.ryerson.ca> wrote:

    Earle Jones <earle.jones@comcast.net> writes:

    Will the presence of the older Airport card (11mbps) affect the
    speed of my iMac and Airport Extreme (54mbps)?
    [...]
    Other than that, make sure that the network name (i.e., SSID) is
    different for the slow and fast networks. If both types of devices are
    on the same network than the 11g devices will slow down so that the
    11b ones can talk with them.


    That is incorrect. With Airport Extreme, the user should set the Mode
    (using Airport Admin Utility) at 802.11b/g. That way, each client
    transmits at the highest speed for that computer. There is no need to
    set up two different networks or have different names. If this sounds unfamiliar, you may need to update your Airport Extreme software and
    firmware.
    --- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Madwen@invalid@nospam.com to comp.sys.mac.system on Saturday, April 08, 2006 21:58:58
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

    In article <tomstiller-41FA88.15522508042006@comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
    Tom Stiller <tomstiller@comcast.net> wrote:

    In article <m2k69z7wi6.fsf@gandalf.local>,
    David Magda <dmagda+trace050401@ee.ryerson.ca> wrote:

    Earle Jones <earle.jones@comcast.net> writes:

    Will the presence of the older Airport card (11mbps) affect the
    speed of my iMac and Airport Extreme (54mbps)?

    Well, both 11Mb/s (802.11b) and and 54Mb/s (11g) use the 2.4GHz
    frequency range (as do many cordless phones), so there may be some
    radio interface that will slow things down.

    Other than that, make sure that the network name (i.e., SSID) is
    different for the slow and fast networks. If both types of devices are
    on the same network than the 11g devices will slow down so that the
    11b ones can talk with them.

    It's not clear that the OP is going to have two base stations. It
    sounds like he is asking if he can have a mix of 802.11 b and 802.11g clients on one network and if the presence of the slower client will adversely affect the faster one. If I'm correct, the answer is "yes"
    but not to the extent of pulling the 54 Mb/sec transfers down to 11
    Mb/sec

    The answer is no for an Airport Extreme network.
    --- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Tom Stiller@tomstiller@comcast.net to comp.sys.mac.system on Saturday, April 08, 2006 22:59:14
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

    In article <080420062235037445%star@sky.net>, Davoud <star@sky.net>
    wrote:

    Tom Stiller wrote:

    It's not clear that the OP is going to have two base stations. It
    sounds like he is asking if he can have a mix of 802.11 b and 802.11g clients on one network and if the presence of the slower client will adversely affect the faster one. If I'm correct, the answer is "yes"
    but not to the extent of pulling the 54 Mb/sec transfers down to 11 Mb/sec.

    I'm quite certain that you are correct.

    Here's what I don't know: I have a similar situation -- six Macs and a
    PeeCee on the AirPort Extreme network. All are 802.11g except one of
    the Macs, an older PowerBook with an 802.11b card hanging off the side.

    Does the network slow down /only/ when the 802.11b card is active, i.e,
    does it automatically return to its maximum possible speed when that
    card is taken out of the loop because the older Mac is put to sleep or
    turned off? Or is it necessary to take some action -- restart the
    AirPort Extreme Base Station, e.g. -- to get back to full speed?


    No, the network is slowed down because the base station is operating in
    b/g mode. The addition of an 802.11b client slows it down even more.
    See
    <http://www.proxim.com/learn/library/whitepapers/maximizing_80211g_invest ment.pdf> for a fuller explanation.

    --
    Tom Stiller

    PGP fingerprint = 5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3
    7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF
    --- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Madwen@invalid@nospam.com to comp.sys.mac.system on Saturday, April 08, 2006 22:03:13
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

    In article <080420062235037445%star@sky.net>, Davoud <star@sky.net>
    wrote:

    Tom Stiller wrote:

    It's not clear that the OP is going to have two base stations. It
    sounds like he is asking if he can have a mix of 802.11 b and 802.11g clients on one network and if the presence of the slower client will adversely affect the faster one. If I'm correct, the answer is "yes"
    but not to the extent of pulling the 54 Mb/sec transfers down to 11 Mb/sec.

    I'm quite certain that you are correct.

    Here's what I don't know: I have a similar situation -- six Macs and a
    PeeCee on the AirPort Extreme network. All are 802.11g except one of
    the Macs, an older PowerBook with an 802.11b card hanging off the side.

    Does the network slow down /only/ when the 802.11b card is active, i.e,
    does it automatically return to its maximum possible speed when that
    card is taken out of the loop because the older Mac is put to sleep or
    turned off? Or is it necessary to take some action -- restart the
    AirPort Extreme Base Station, e.g. -- to get back to full speed?

    Set the Mode at 802.11b/g and each computer will transmit at its maximum speed. No restart is needed because the slower client does not slow the others down if you have the Mode set correctly.
    --- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Madwen@invalid@nospam.com to comp.sys.mac.system on Saturday, April 08, 2006 22:36:03
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

    In article <tomstiller-A2B36E.22591308042006@comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
    Tom Stiller <tomstiller@comcast.net> wrote:

    In article <080420062235037445%star@sky.net>, Davoud <star@sky.net>
    wrote:

    Tom Stiller wrote:

    It's not clear that the OP is going to have two base stations. It sounds like he is asking if he can have a mix of 802.11 b and 802.11g clients on one network and if the presence of the slower client will adversely affect the faster one. If I'm correct, the answer is "yes" but not to the extent of pulling the 54 Mb/sec transfers down to 11 Mb/sec.

    I'm quite certain that you are correct.

    Here's what I don't know: I have a similar situation -- six Macs and a PeeCee on the AirPort Extreme network. All are 802.11g except one of
    the Macs, an older PowerBook with an 802.11b card hanging off the side.

    Does the network slow down /only/ when the 802.11b card is active, i.e, does it automatically return to its maximum possible speed when that
    card is taken out of the loop because the older Mac is put to sleep or turned off? Or is it necessary to take some action -- restart the
    AirPort Extreme Base Station, e.g. -- to get back to full speed?


    No, the network is slowed down because the base station is operating in
    b/g mode. The addition of an 802.11b client slows it down even more.
    See <http://www.proxim.com/learn/library/whitepapers/maximizing_80211g_invest ment.pdf> for a fuller explanation.

    That conflicts with Apple's more recent claims and my experience with my
    own network. Your information is dated 2003 btw.

    <http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/Designing_AirPort_Networks_v4.2.pdf>
    --- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From nospam@nospam@nospam.invalid to comp.sys.mac.system on Saturday, April 08, 2006 21:14:39
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

    In article <invalid-1630F5.22360308042006@news-50.dca.giganews.com>,
    Madwen <invalid@nospam.com> wrote:

    In article <tomstiller-A2B36E.22591308042006@comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
    Tom Stiller <tomstiller@comcast.net> wrote:

    No, the network is slowed down because the base station is operating in b/g mode. The addition of an 802.11b client slows it down even more.
    See <http://www.proxim.com/learn/library/whitepapers/maximizing_80211g_invest ment.pdf> for a fuller explanation.

    That conflicts with Apple's more recent claims and my experience with my
    own network. Your information is dated 2003 btw.

    <http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/Designing_AirPort_Networks_v4.2.pdf>

    apple's document doesn't conflict with proxim's - it just says that the
    clients run at 'its highest speed' without ever saying what speed that
    actually is. if the base station is in b/g mode, it needs to listen
    for both types of packets, and the 'highest speed' is going to be lower
    than if it was listening for only 802.11g.

    more documentation at:

    <http://www.atheros.com/pt/atheros_range_whitepaper.pdf>

    table 1-1 shows that g-only mode has a maximum throughput of a little
    more than half versus b/g hybrid. it goes on to explain exactly why
    there is a substantial speed hit.
    --- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Davoud@star@sky.net to comp.sys.mac.system on Sunday, April 09, 2006 00:36:10
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

    Davoud:
    Here's what I don't know...

    Does the network slow down /only/ when the 802.11b card is active, i.e, does it automatically return to its maximum possible speed when that
    card is taken out of the loop because the older Mac is put to sleep or turned off? Or is it necessary to take some action -- restart the
    AirPort Extreme Base Station, e.g. -- to get back to full speed?

    Tom Stiller:
    No, the network is slowed down because the base station is operating in
    b/g mode. The addition of an 802.11b client slows it down even more.
    See <http://www.proxim.com/learn/library/whitepapers/maximizing_80211g_invest ment.pdf> for a fuller explanation.

    Ah, so! The base station must be configured for 802.11g /only/ in order
    to get maximum speed. Even without any 802.11b devices on the network,
    if the base station is set for b /and/ g modes, maximum speed can not
    be attained. Gotta trade that old PowerBook for a MacBook Pro...

    Thanks for taking time to repy and for including the useful URL.

    Davoud

    --
    usenet *at* davidillig dawt com
    --- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Madwen@invalid@nospam.com to comp.sys.mac.system on Sunday, April 09, 2006 00:15:44
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

    In article <080420062114398137%nospam@nospam.invalid>,
    nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

    In article <invalid-1630F5.22360308042006@news-50.dca.giganews.com>,
    Madwen <invalid@nospam.com> wrote:

    In article <tomstiller-A2B36E.22591308042006@comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
    Tom Stiller <tomstiller@comcast.net> wrote:

    No, the network is slowed down because the base station is operating in b/g mode. The addition of an 802.11b client slows it down even more. See <http://www.proxim.com/learn/library/whitepapers/maximizing_80211g_invest ment.pdf> for a fuller explanation.

    That conflicts with Apple's more recent claims and my experience with my own network. Your information is dated 2003 btw.

    <http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/Designing_AirPort_Networks_v4.2.pdf>

    apple's document doesn't conflict with proxim's

    But what Tom said does conflict with Apple's latest manual on designing Airport Extreme networks:

    "Choosing the Network Mode Choose 802.11b/g Compatible from the Mode
    pop-up menu if computers with 802.11g or 802.11b wireless cards or will
    join the network. Each client computer will transmit at its highest
    speed. Choose 802.11g Only if only computers with 802.11g wireless
    cards will join the network. The transmission rate of the network will
    be at 802.11g speed, up to 54 megabits per second. Computers with
    802.11b wireless cards will not be able to join this network. Choose
    802.11b Only if computers with 802.11b wireless cards will join the
    network. The transmission rate of the network will be at 802.11b
    speed, up to 11 megabits per second. Computers with 802.11g cards will
    be able to join this network, but will join at 802.11b speed."

    ... - it just says that the clients run at 'its highest speed'
    without ever saying what speed that actually is.

    The meaning of "highest" is pretty clear. Are you saying that Apple is engaging in misrepresentation?

    ...if the base station is in b/g mode, it needs to listen for both
    types of packets, and the 'highest speed' is going to be lower than
    if it was listening for only 802.11g.

    Your argument, FWIW, is with Apple, not me.




    more documentation at:

    <http://www.atheros.com/pt/atheros_range_whitepaper.pdf>

    table 1-1 shows that g-only mode has a maximum throughput of a little
    more than half versus b/g hybrid. it goes on to explain exactly why
    there is a substantial speed hit.
    --- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Tom Stiller@tomstiller@comcast.net to comp.sys.mac.system on Sunday, April 09, 2006 08:39:23
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

    In article <invalid-93DEF9.00154409042006@news-50.dca.giganews.com>,
    Madwen <invalid@nospam.com> wrote:

    In article <080420062114398137%nospam@nospam.invalid>,
    nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

    In article
    <invalid-1630F5.22360308042006@news-50.dca.giganews.com>, Madwen <invalid@nospam.com> wrote:

    In article
    <tomstiller-A2B36E.22591308042006@comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
    Tom Stiller <tomstiller@comcast.net> wrote:

    No, the network is slowed down because the base station is
    operating in b/g mode. The addition of an 802.11b client slows
    it down even more. See <http://www.proxim.com/learn/library/whitepapers/maximizing_8021 1g_inves t ment.pdf> for a fuller explanation.

    That conflicts with Apple's more recent claims and my experience
    with my own network. Your information is dated 2003 btw.

    <http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/Designing_AirPort_Networks_v4.2.


    apple's document doesn't conflict with proxim's

    But what Tom said does conflict with Apple's latest manual on
    designing Airport Extreme networks:

    "Choosing the Network Mode Choose 802.11b/g Compatible from the Mode
    pop-up menu if computers with 802.11g or 802.11b wireless cards or
    will join the network. Each client computer will transmit at its
    highest speed. Choose 802.11g Only if only computers with 802.11g
    wireless cards will join the network. The transmission rate of the
    network will be at 802.11g speed, up to 54 megabits per second.
    Computers with 802.11b wireless cards will not be able to join this
    network. Choose 802.11b Only if computers with 802.11b wireless
    cards will join the network. The transmission rate of the network
    will be at 802.11b speed, up to 11 megabits per second. Computers
    with 802.11g cards will be able to join this network, but will join
    at 802.11b speed."

    ... - it just says that the clients run at 'its highest speed'
    without ever saying what speed that actually is.

    The meaning of "highest" is pretty clear. Are you saying that Apple
    is engaging in misrepresentation?

    First, I don't think there has been any major change on the 802.11 a/g protocols sinc 2003.

    Second, note the use of the phrase "up to 54 megabits per second" in
    Apple's document. They could have said "up to 100 megabits per second"
    and still be (technically) correct. 54 Mb/s is the burst rate for
    802.11g and does not account for any transmission delays or protocol
    overhead.

    Third, stop and think a bit. In order to communicate using both a fast
    and faster protocol, the base station must "switch gears" periodically
    to pass traffic to each group (b/g). A single radio can't hear "g mode" traffic while communicating in "b mode" and vice versa.

    ...if the base station is in b/g mode, it needs to listen for both
    types of packets, and the 'highest speed' is going to be lower than
    if it was listening for only 802.11g.

    Your argument, FWIW, is with Apple, not me.

    I don't have an argument with anyone, the facts speak for themselves.
    Your _interpretation_ may vary.




    more documentation at:

    <http://www.atheros.com/pt/atheros_range_whitepaper.pdf>

    table 1-1 shows that g-only mode has a maximum throughput of a
    little more than half versus b/g hybrid. it goes on to explain
    exactly why there is a substantial speed hit.

    --
    Tom Stiller

    PGP fingerprint = 5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3
    7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF
    --- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Madwen@invalid@nospam.com to comp.sys.mac.system on Sunday, April 09, 2006 09:37:34
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

    In article <tomstiller-E5FD61.08392309042006@comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
    Tom Stiller <tomstiller@comcast.net> wrote:

    In article <invalid-93DEF9.00154409042006@news-50.dca.giganews.com>,
    Madwen <invalid@nospam.com> wrote:

    In article <080420062114398137%nospam@nospam.invalid>,
    nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

    In article
    <invalid-1630F5.22360308042006@news-50.dca.giganews.com>, Madwen <invalid@nospam.com> wrote:

    In article <tomstiller-A2B36E.22591308042006@comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
    Tom Stiller <tomstiller@comcast.net> wrote:

    No, the network is slowed down because the base station is
    operating in b/g mode. The addition of an 802.11b client slows
    it down even more. See <http://www.proxim.com/learn/library/whitepapers/maximizing_8021 1g_inves t ment.pdf> for a fuller explanation.

    That conflicts with Apple's more recent claims and my experience
    with my own network. Your information is dated 2003 btw.

    <http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/Designing_AirPort_Networks_v4.2.


    apple's document doesn't conflict with proxim's

    But what Tom said does conflict with Apple's latest manual on
    designing Airport Extreme networks:

    "Choosing the Network Mode Choose 802.11b/g Compatible from the Mode pop-up menu if computers with 802.11g or 802.11b wireless cards or
    will join the network. Each client computer will transmit at its
    highest speed. Choose 802.11g Only if only computers with 802.11g wireless cards will join the network. The transmission rate of the network will be at 802.11g speed, up to 54 megabits per second. Computers with 802.11b wireless cards will not be able to join this network. Choose 802.11b Only if computers with 802.11b wireless
    cards will join the network. The transmission rate of the network
    will be at 802.11b speed, up to 11 megabits per second. Computers
    with 802.11g cards will be able to join this network, but will join
    at 802.11b speed."

    ... - it just says that the clients run at 'its highest speed'
    without ever saying what speed that actually is.

    The meaning of "highest" is pretty clear. Are you saying that Apple
    is engaging in misrepresentation?

    First, I don't think there has been any major change on the 802.11 a/g protocols sinc 2003.

    Are you saying that Apple is engaging in misrepresentation in its
    "Designing Airport Networks..." manual?

    Second, note the use of the phrase "up to 54 megabits per second" in
    Apple's document. They could have said "up to 100 megabits per second"
    and still be (technically) correct. 54 Mb/s is the burst rate for
    802.11g and does not account for any transmission delays or protocol overhead.

    Look again. The "up to" language was in reference to 802.11g
    networks--- not 802.11b/g networks. You're attempting to switch gears
    here and I don't understand why. The document says, "Each client
    computer will transmit at its highest speed." Once again, the meaning
    of "highest" is very clear. Are you saying that Apple is wrong and that
    each computer on a mixed network will not transmit at its highest speed?

    Third, stop and think a bit. In order to communicate using both a fast
    and faster protocol, the base station...

    Look again. My remarks were not directed at the base station; they were
    about the computers on the network.

    ...must "switch gears" periodically
    to pass traffic to each group (b/g). A single radio can't hear "g mode" traffic while communicating in "b mode" and vice versa.

    ...if the base station is in b/g mode, it needs to listen for both
    types of packets, and the 'highest speed' is going to be lower than
    if it was listening for only 802.11g.

    Your argument, FWIW, is with Apple, not me.

    I don't have an argument with anyone, the facts speak for themselves.
    Your _interpretation_ may vary.

    There's nothing wrong with my "interpretation". The Apple manual
    *clearly* says that in 802.11b/g mode, each client computer will
    transmit at its highest speed. "Highest speed" clearly means the
    maximum transmission speed of which the computer is capable. Reading it
    any other way requires a great deal of equivocation. What I don't
    understand is why you would wish to equivocate. If Apple is wrong or
    trying to mislead Airport users, then you should say so instead of
    trying to blame it on my "interpretation".





    more documentation at:

    <http://www.atheros.com/pt/atheros_range_whitepaper.pdf>

    table 1-1 shows that g-only mode has a maximum throughput of a
    little more than half versus b/g hybrid. it goes on to explain
    exactly why there is a substantial speed hit.
    --- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Tom Stiller@tomstiller@comcast.net to comp.sys.mac.system on Sunday, April 09, 2006 11:23:25
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

    In article <invalid-952BB5.09373409042006@news-50.dca.giganews.com>,
    Madwen <invalid@nospam.com> wrote:

    There's nothing wrong with my "interpretation". The Apple manual
    *clearly* says that in 802.11b/g mode, each client computer will
    transmit at its highest speed. "Highest speed" clearly means the
    maximum transmission speed of which the computer is capable. Reading it
    any other way requires a great deal of equivocation. What I don't understand is why you would wish to equivocate. If Apple is wrong or trying to mislead Airport users, then you should say so instead of
    trying to blame it on my "interpretation".

    Yes, it will transmit at its highest speed, but for how long and under
    what conditions? You seem to think that any radio can transmit at any
    time and achieve full data throughput without regard for any other
    clients on the same network. In reality, substantial negotiation occurs
    to insure that transmissions from multiple clients do not collide and
    that a given client does not "hog" the available bandwidth. The net
    result is that individual packets are transmitted at the "highest speed"
    but overall net throughput is substantially less.

    I don't think Apple is wrong or being deliberately misleading, nor do I
    think they intended to offer a complete description of the 802.11 communication protocols in their discussion of how to set up an AirPort wireless network.

    As to your interpretation, I think it's incredibly naive to think that
    any useful data transmission scheme can sustain a data rate equal to the
    raw bandwidth of the channel.

    Whether you agree or not, the facts have been presented and the readers
    can judge for themselves how the mixing of 802.11 a/g traffic on a
    network will affect the overall capacity of the network.

    I'm finished with this discussion.

    --
    Tom Stiller

    PGP fingerprint = 5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3
    7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF
    --- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Michelle Steiner@michelle@michelle.org to comp.sys.mac.system on Sunday, April 09, 2006 08:31:04
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

    In article <invalid-952BB5.09373409042006@news-50.dca.giganews.com>,
    Madwen <invalid@nospam.com> wrote:

    Look again. The "up to" language was in reference to 802.11g
    networks--- not 802.11b/g networks. You're attempting to switch
    gears here and I don't understand why. The document says, "Each
    client computer will transmit at its highest speed." Once again, the meaning of "highest" is very clear.

    Apparently, it is not clear; otherwise, there would be no disagreement.

    There's nothing wrong with my "interpretation". The Apple manual
    *clearly* says that in 802.11b/g mode, each client computer will
    transmit at its highest speed. "Highest speed" clearly means the
    maximum transmission speed of which the computer is capable.

    It could mean at the highest speed at which the base station
    communicates with it.

    It is not clear at all.

    --
    Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
    --- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Madwen@invalid@nospam.com to comp.sys.mac.system on Sunday, April 09, 2006 11:15:46
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

    In article <tomstiller-8332F3.11232509042006@comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
    Tom Stiller <tomstiller@comcast.net> wrote:

    In article <invalid-952BB5.09373409042006@news-50.dca.giganews.com>,
    Madwen <invalid@nospam.com> wrote:

    There's nothing wrong with my "interpretation". The Apple manual *clearly* says that in 802.11b/g mode, each client computer will
    transmit at its highest speed. "Highest speed" clearly means the
    maximum transmission speed of which the computer is capable. Reading it any other way requires a great deal of equivocation. What I don't understand is why you would wish to equivocate. If Apple is wrong or trying to mislead Airport users, then you should say so instead of
    trying to blame it on my "interpretation".

    Yes, it will transmit at its highest speed, but for how long and under
    what conditions? You seem to think that any radio can transmit at any time...

    That is a ridiculous strawman. I said no such thing and I'll thank you
    not to put words in my mouth in an effort to bolster your previous
    position. I merely quoted Apple regarding the transmission speed of the computers on a 802.11b/g network. Like I said, your argument is with
    them, not me.

    ......and achieve full data throughput without regard for any other
    clients on the same network. In reality, substantial negotiation occurs
    to insure that transmissions from multiple clients do not collide and
    that a given client does not "hog" the available bandwidth. The net
    result is that individual packets are transmitted at the "highest speed"
    but overall net throughput is substantially less.

    I don't think Apple is wrong or being deliberately misleading....

    So then you agree that the statement in the Apple manual that I have
    been quoting--- the one you snipped--- is correct?:

    "Choosing the Network Mode Choose 802.11b/g Compatible from the Mode
    pop-up menu if computers with 802.11g or 802.11b wireless cards or will
    join the network. Each client computer will transmit at its highest
    speed."

    ...., nor do I think they intended to offer a complete description of
    the 802.11 communication protocols in their discussion of how to set
    up an AirPort wireless network.

    As to your interpretation, I think it's incredibly naive to think that
    any useful data transmission scheme can sustain a data rate equal to the
    raw bandwidth of the channel.

    Once again, I interpreted nothing. I merely quoted Apple's own manual
    which you have very blatantly avoided. You keep wanting to put words in
    my mouth but I have made no other claims. I don't understand why you're trying to make me a bad guy here unless you have some kind of hidden
    agenda.

    Whether you agree or not, the facts have been presented and the readers
    can judge for themselves how the mixing of 802.11 a/g traffic on a
    network will affect the overall capacity of the network.

    I'm finished with this discussion.

    That's fine since you obviously can't respond to my questions.
    --- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Tom Stiller@tomstiller@comcast.net to comp.sys.mac.system on Sunday, April 09, 2006 17:36:46
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system


    Just in case anyone is still interested, I performed the following
    experiment with several combinations of 802.11b and 802.11g computers.

    Wrote test programs to send and receive blocks of arbitrary bytes
    through a TCP connection.

    The transmitter sent 8192 1024 byte blocks and closed the connection.

    The receiver looped receiving data until the connection was closed.

    The receiving computer was a 700 MHz G3 iMac connected to an AirPort
    Extreme base station via 100 Mb ethernet.

    The sending computers were a 367 MHz Clamshell G3 iBook equipped with
    the original AirPort card and a 1.2 GHz G4 iBook equipped with an Apple Extreme card.

    The network was WPA enabled and while there was no local traffic, it was
    not isolated from the internet.

    The tests were:
    1. Base station in b/g mode. Send from 802.11g. 802.11b computer
    enabled but idle (AirPort on).
    2. Base station in b/g mode. Send from 802.11b. 802.11g computer
    enabled but idle (AirPort on).
    3. Base station in b/g mode. Send from 803.11g. 802.11b computer
    disabled (AirPort off).
    4. Base station in g only mode. Send from 803.11g. 802.11b computer
    disabled (AirPort off).
    5. Base station in b only mode. Send from 803.11g. 802.11b computer
    disabled (AirPort off).
    6. Base station in b only mode. Send from 803.11b. 802.11g computer
    enabled but idle (AirPort on).

    Each test was repeated five times, the throughput results (Mb/sec) are:

    Test Max. Min. Avg.
    1 15.4 14.5 15.14
    2 4.9 4.8 4.84
    3 27.2 26.0 26.76
    4 27.2 23.8 25.92
    5 5.4 5.3 5.32
    6 4.9 4.8 4.88

    Note: the similarities in test 3 and 4. If there is no 802.11b radio
    active, the network behaves pretty much as if the base station were
    operating in 802.11g mode only.

    I think the discrepancies in tests 5 and 6 are due to the speed
    differences in processors while computing the WPA encryption. I could
    be wrong about this.

    --
    Tom Stiller

    PGP fingerprint = 5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3
    7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF
    --- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Earle Jones@earle.jones@comcast.net to comp.sys.mac.system on Sunday, April 09, 2006 18:03:38
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.system

    In article
    <invalid-ABBBDF.22031308042006@news-50.dca.giganews.com>,
    Madwen <invalid@nospam.com> wrote:

    In article <080420062235037445%star@sky.net>, Davoud <star@sky.net>
    wrote:

    Tom Stiller wrote:

    It's not clear that the OP is going to have two base stations. It sounds like he is asking if he can have a mix of 802.11 b and 802.11g clients on one network and if the presence of the slower client will adversely affect the faster one. If I'm correct, the answer is "yes" but not to the extent of pulling the 54 Mb/sec transfers down to 11 Mb/sec.

    I'm quite certain that you are correct.

    Here's what I don't know: I have a similar situation -- six Macs and a PeeCee on the AirPort Extreme network. All are 802.11g except one of
    the Macs, an older PowerBook with an 802.11b card hanging off the side.

    Does the network slow down /only/ when the 802.11b card is active, i.e, does it automatically return to its maximum possible speed when that
    card is taken out of the loop because the older Mac is put to sleep or turned off? Or is it necessary to take some action -- restart the
    AirPort Extreme Base Station, e.g. -- to get back to full speed?

    Set the Mode at 802.11b/g and each computer will transmit at its maximum speed. No restart is needed because the slower client does not slow the others down if you have the Mode set correctly.

    *
    The Airport Admin Utility has the default mode set at 802.11b/g.

    earle
    *
    --- Synchronet 3.18b-Win32 NewsLink 1.113