New connectee here from Indy, looking forward to this for some reason.
Greetings,
New connectee here from Indy, looking forward to this for some reason.
Thanks!
Greetings,
New connectee here from Indy, looking forward to this for some reason.
Thanks!
Greetings,
New connectee here from Indy, looking forward to this for some reason.
Thanks!
Just be aware that, here as anywhere, political discussions can often get quite...heated...
Your problem was that one of the local left-wingers mistook you for a right-winger. :)
New connectee here from Indy, looking forward to this for some reason.
Welcome to the family!
Your problem was that one of the local left-wingers mistook you for a
right-winger. :)
I'm sure I've been called worse names by better people. ;)
The irony is that I am neither left- nor right-wing. I am...Bipartisan? Non-partisan? Or just simply neutral.
Either way, when debate becomes argument, no further exchange of ideas can take place.
The purpose of debate is to argue the point. Therefore, those who
do not wish to argue are unable to debate. Not in a civil manner,
anyway.
The purpose of debate is to argue the point. Therefore, those who
do not wish to argue are unable to debate. Not in a civil manner, anyway.
You said it way better than I did. :)
On 15 Feb 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...
The purpose of debate is to argue the point. Therefore, those who
do not wish to argue are unable to debate. Not in a civil manner,
anyway.
You said it way better than I did. :)
Lee's point is that debate is argument. Debate is not an "exchange of ideas." The arguments made in a debate are not above criticism or rebuttal; criticism and rebuttal are in fact the goal of debate.
Have you ever had your mind changed on a topic because of an Echomail or internet debate/argument? Yeah, me neither.
Lee's point is that debate *is* argument. Debate is not an "exchange of ideas." The arguments made in a debate are not above criticism or rebuttal; criticism and rebuttal are in fact the goal of debate.
Have you ever had your mind changed on a topic because of an Echomail or internet debate/argument? Yeah, me neither.
However, I don't traffic in lies and misinformation. I make efforts to ensure that my views are fact-based. Any rational person, upon
discovering that their views are based on lies and misinformation,
should re-evaluate said views in this new light.
On 15 Feb 2022, Brian Indy said the following...
Have you ever had your mind changed on a topic because of an Echomail or
internet debate/argument? Yeah, me neither.
Not dramatically, no. But I've gained insight into how other people see things and have occasionally changed the way that I look at certain things.
However, I don't traffic in lies and misinformation. I make efforts to ensure that my views are fact-based. Any rational person, upon
discovering that their views are based on lies and misinformation, should re-evaluate said views in this new light.
Lee's point is that debate is argument. Debate is not an "exchange of
ideas." The arguments made in a debate are not above criticism or
rebuttal; criticism and rebuttal are in fact the goal of debate.
I disagree, in two ways. I don't think that was Lee's point, and debate
is an exchange of ideas. Two (or more) parties, constructively discussing their ideas with each other.
And my point, previously, was that debating and arguing are not the same, at least as I define the two words. There is no name calling, no
shouting, no 'heat', in a debate. What we are doing right now, for example, is debate. Arguing is exactly the opposite. Oftentimes, debate will crumble to argument. And this is where the exchange breaks down.
Have you ever had your mind changed on a topic because of an Echomail or
internet debate/argument? Yeah, me neither.
I have, more than once! It's called being open-minded. And, once again, debating is not the same as arguing. I wouldn't even listen to someone
who chooses to argue, rather than debate, his/her point.
Lee's point is that debate *is* argument. Debate is not an "exchange ideas." The arguments made in a debate are not above criticism or rebuttal; criticism and rebuttal are in fact the goal of debate.
I disagree, in two ways. I don't think that was Lee's point, and debate *is* an exchange of ideas. Two (or more) parties, constructively discussing their ideas with each other.
And my point, previously, was that debating and arguing are *not* the same, at least as I define the two words. There is no name calling, no shouting, no 'heat', in a debate. What we are doing right now, for example, is debate. Arguing is exactly the opposite. Oftentimes, debate will crumble to argument. And this is where the exchange breaks down.
Have you ever had your mind changed on a topic because of an Echomai
internet debate/argument? Yeah, me neither.
Not dramatically, no. But I've gained insight into how other people s things and have occasionally changed the way that I look at certain things.
However, I don't traffic in lies and misinformation. I make efforts t ensure that my views are fact-based. Any rational person, upon discovering that their views are based on lies and misinformation, sh re-evaluate said views in this new light.
Fact based? Where, in this day and age of social media, do we ever find facts?
Fact based? Where, in this day and age of social media, do we ever find
facts?
The facts are out there, but they're not as sensational as the news. They're buried in statistics, studies, and other dry places. They're buried in the actual context in which experts speak and not in misquoted, misleading, out-of-context sound bites. Reading fact-checks of claims is
a good place to start, as fact-checkers are rarely content to simply
label something false, but will often explain the topic at hand, reveal the ways in which facts have been manipulated to produce misleading results, and provide their sources of information for further research.
I hope this is helpful, because your question seems to indicate that you either don't know where to find factual information or don't know how to tell factual information from misinformation, either of which is very troubling.
Work on your critical thinking skills. Learn the different types of fallacies and how to identify them. Look for sources that contradict your beliefs and evaluate them. Logic puzzles (the kind where there is a grid to be filled out) are also very helpful because all but the easiest do
not provide enough information to directly solve the puzzle; assumptions and inferences must be made and some of these will be incorrect. The puzzles give you a chance to analyze your mistakes and figure out why you made a bad assumption or inference, and this will equip you to recognize such mistakes in your own thinking and that of others in the future.
Have you ever met someone that had a mind so open, their brains fell
out?
It's epidemic.
Debates almost always occur between advocates of opposing points of view. Additionally, each side's set of points is known as an "argument." The goal of a debate is not to bring one's opponent over to one's point of view; it's to persuade an audience that one's point of view is the superior one.
There can be "heat" in a debate; when that happens it's often referred
to as a "heated debate." Other than the fact that I'm using mixed case
or overusing punctuation, how can you be certain that I'm not yelling at you right now?
You are correct in that name-calling is generally frowned upon in debate, though. However, by your definition is it an argument if only one side engages in name-calling while the other side remains civil, or is it
still a debate? A half-argument? A half-debate?
We are both arguing right now, albeit in a calm and civil manner. You're arguing your point of view and I'm arguing mine. I am criticizing your argument just as you have criticized mine. I fully expect my argument to be further criticized, and so forth.
I think that the difference between an argument and a debate is much more subtle: an argument is a debate that one no longer wishes to engage in.
Don't believe anything you see, hear or smell on the internet. It's my motto. Why would you be troubled? I prefer being my own man and not some social media addicted sheeplette, and I am not saying you are a sheeplette. I mean sheep, I was just trying to be clever.
Debates almost always occur between advocates of opposing points of v Additionally, each side's set of points is known as an "argument." Th goal of a debate is not to bring one's opponent over to one's point o view; it's to persuade an audience that one's point of view is the superior one.
We are in disagreement, here. I don't debate for the sake of an
audience. I do so in order to both explain my point of view, and have my opponent explain his/hers. *That* is the goal of a good debate, is it
not?
There can be "heat" in a debate; when that happens it's often referre to as a "heated debate." Other than the fact that I'm using mixed cas or overusing punctuation, how can you be certain that I'm not yelling you right now?
Misdirection is a poor tactic, and I will not respond to this.
You are correct in that name-calling is generally frowned upon in deb though. However, by your definition is it an argument if only one sid engages in name-calling while the other side remains civil, or is it still a debate? A half-argument? A half-debate?
It is no longer a debate, as I define the word. At that point, the name-caller has 'lost', or rather given up, the debate.
We are both arguing right now, albeit in a calm and civil manner. You arguing your point of view and I'm arguing mine. I am criticizing you argument just as you have criticized mine. I fully expect my argument be further criticized, and so forth.
No, sir, we are debating! If we were arguing, as I define the word, there would be no civility! "Making an argument", as you are thinking of it,
is not the same.
I think that the difference between an argument and a debate is much subtle: an argument is a debate that one no longer wishes to engage i
Well...yes...pretty much... :)
Then why did you ask where we are to find facts, and in such a way as to infer that such a place does not exist?
^^^^We are in disagreement, here. I don't debate for the sake of an audience. I do so in order to both explain my point of view, and have opponent explain his/hers. *That* is the goal of a good debate, is it not?
There's a reason that most debates are conducted in a public forum.
Misdirection is a poor tactic, and I will not respond to this.
How am I misdirecting you? Is there no such thing as a "heated debate?"
Am I or am I not yelling at you? That seems to be a key difference in
your definition of a debate vs an argument, and yet you can't really
tell, can you?
You are correct in that name-calling is generally frowned upon i though. However, by your definition is it an argument if only on engages in name-calling while the other side remains civil, or i still a debate? A half-argument? A half-debate?
It is no longer a debate, as I define the word. At that point, the name-caller has 'lost', or rather given up, the debate.
Perhaps, but it might depend on the nature of the name-calling and
whether it was frivolous or accurate.
No, sir, we are debating! If we were arguing, as I define the word, t would be no civility! "Making an argument", as you are thinking of it is not the same.
Whoa, man, what's with the exclamation marks? Are you arguing now? I believe that such a thing as a civil argument exists, so perhaps this is just a semantic difference.
Am I or am I not yelling at you? That seems to be a key difference in
your definition of a debate vs an argument, and yet you can't really
tell, can you?
I think that the difference between an argument and a debate is subtle: an argument is a debate that one no longer wishes to eng
Well...yes...pretty much... :)
And calling a debate an argument provides a safe exit.
Then why did you ask where we are to find facts, and in such a way as infer that such a place does not exist?
Did I? I wasn't inferring anything, you may have just interpretted what
I may have said as an inferrence.
I'm a skeptic about everything the media trots out. Plus I am awful busy stamping out inequality. Do you think the pro sports should be mandated to have an equal number of races on their teams? I've been thinking
about that a lot. Why don't we see many Asians or Sherpas in the NFL,
NBA, and NHL? Sure they are well represented in baseball, but why not
the others.
Do the leagues need to change thier rules, especially in this
environment of wokeness, to reflect true racially distributed equality
in their teams, coaching,
and administrative staff? Same for those from the Polynesian Islands,
and native intuit tribes of the great almost all white north.
We are in disagreement, here. I don't debate for the sake of an audience. I do so in order to both explain my point of view, and opponent explain his/hers. *That* is the goal of a good debate, not?
There's a reason that most debates are conducted in a public forum.^^^^
Misdirection is a poor tactic, and I will not respond to this.
How am I misdirecting you? Is there no such thing as a "heated debate Am I or am I not yelling at you? That seems to be a key difference in your definition of a debate vs an argument, and yet you can't really tell, can you?
I will continue not responding to this.
Perhaps, but it might depend on the nature of the name-calling and whether it was frivolous or accurate.
Your own question negates this logic. How can one side 'remain civil' if the other is not being...'un-civil'?
No, sir, we are debating! If we were arguing, as I define the wo would be no civility! "Making an argument", as you are thinking is not the same.
Whoa, man, what's with the exclamation marks? Are you arguing now? I believe that such a thing as a civil argument exists, so perhaps this just a semantic difference.
Because proper punctuation of emphasis is yelling, is this what your implying? The irony here is not lost on me:
Am I or am I not yelling at you? That seems to be a key difference in your definition of a debate vs an argument, and yet you can't really tell, can you?
I agree, the core of our current debate is a semantic difference. I have used the phrase "as I define the word" multiple times.
I think that the difference between an argument and a debat subtle: an argument is a debate that one no longer wishes t
Well...yes...pretty much... :)
And calling a debate an argument provides a safe exit.
Erm...I suppose one could see it that way. One could also say that
turning a debate into an argument provides a 'safe' exit. It depends on who is doing the arguing, and who is doing the debating.
Meanwhile, I grow tired of this. I do not need to call this an argument
in order to exit. I'll just stop taking part.
Either way, when debate becomes argument, no further exchange of ideas c take place.
Yes. Continuing down the rabbit hole means you will encounter a lot of rabbit feces. :)
Either way, when debate becomes argument, no further exchange of ideas can take place.
Lee's point is that debate *is* argument. Debate is not an "exchange of ideas." The arguments made in a debate are not above criticism or rebuttal; criticism and rebuttal are in fact the goal of debate.
I disagree, in two ways. I don't think that was Lee's point, and debate *is* an exchange of ideas. Two (or more) parties, constructively discussing their ideas with each other.
Lee's point is that debate *is* argument. Debate is not an "exchang ideas." The arguments made in a debate are not above criticism or rebuttal; criticism and rebuttal are in fact the goal of debate.
I disagree, in two ways. I don't think that was Lee's point, and debate an exchange of ideas. Two (or more) parties, constructively discussing t ideas with each other.
Lee is not a real person but the alter ego of a FIDO sysop who also sometimes posts here. What "Lee" says can safely be ignored 99.9% of the time.
Continuing down the rabbit hole means you will encounter a lot of
rabbit feces. :)
Welcome to the family!
Another new/old POLITICS member here. I used to be in this echo in the early 90s, when it resembled a combination of WWE match and a
flamethrower joust.
On 15 Feb 2022, Brian Indy said the following...
Don't believe anything you see, hear or smell on the internet. It's my
motto. Why would you be troubled? I prefer being my own man and not some
social media addicted sheeplette, and I am not saying you are a
sheeplette. I mean sheep, I was just trying to be clever.
Then why did you ask where we are to find facts, and in such a way as to infer that such a place does not exist?
Jeff.
On 02-15-22 17:16, Mike Powell <=-
spoke to Shaun Buzza about Re: New to POLITICS <=-
Lee is not a real person but the alter ego of a FIDO sysop who also sometimes posts here. What "Lee" says can safely be ignored 99.9% of
the time.
You only have to look at their postings to realize that they
are not the same person.
Brian Indy wrote to Jeff Thiele <=-
Don't believe anything you see, hear or smell on the internet. It's my motto. Why would you be troubled? I prefer being my own man
Brian Indy wrote to Jeff Thiele <=-
Did I? I wasn't inferring anything, you may have just interpretted what
I may have said as an inferrence.
Mike Powell wrote to SHAUN BUZZA <=-
Lee is not a real person but the alter ego of a FIDO sysop who also sometimes posts here. What "Lee" says can safely be ignored 99.9% of
the time.
Where ARE we supposed to find "facts?"
The experts told us not to wear masks, because they not only didn't do
any good, but they actually did harm.
The experts told us that once we got vaccinated, all restrictions could
be lifted, because if you were vaccinated, you could no longer catch or spread Covid.
The experts told us that the virus started because some Chinese guy ate undercooked bat soup, and it was a racist comspiracy theory to even consider that it might have started from risky bioweapons research conducted at a lab which wasn't equipped to do it.
How about those "facts" from the experts now? Anyone who even
questioned them were labled as some sort of racist loon.
Don't believe anything you see, hear or smell on the internet. It's m motto. Why would you be troubled? I prefer being my own man
And that's why Jeff is troubled. You aren't part of the Leftie
Hivemind. Lefties like Jeff are threatened by anyone who can think for themselves and won't blindly believe in the propaganda that they are trying to push on everyone.
Did I? I wasn't inferring anything, you may have just interpretted wh I may have said as an inferrence.
This is a common Leftie tactic. The Leftie imagines you saying
something, then proceeds to harangue you about what you didn't say.
They can't debate you, so they just try to smear you.
@MSGID: <620C2EE7.15578.politicf@capitolcityonline.net>
@REPLY: <620C28A1.15575.politicf@capitolcityonline.net>
Lee's point is that debate *is* argument. Debate is not an "exchan
ideas." The arguments made in a debate are not above criticism or rebuttal; criticism and rebuttal are in fact the goal of debate.
I disagree, in two ways. I don't think that was Lee's point, and debate
an exchange of ideas. Two (or more) parties, constructively discussing ideas with each other.
Lee is not a real person but the alter ego of a FIDO sysop who also sometimes posts here. What "Lee" says can safely be ignored 99.9% of the
time.
Thanks for the heads-up...but I would prefer to let people prove, by their own
acts, that they should be ignored before I do so. If he truly is an 'alt' of someone else who comments a lot, it will become obvious to me soon enough.
Having said that, I don't understand why that information is important, considering I wasn't responding to him, nor really discussing anything specific that Lee had said...
Continuing down the rabbit hole means you will encounter a lot of
rabbit feces. :)
STOLEN...Oh yeah.
What do you base that conclusion on? It is true that Lee posts from
Bj.rn's BBS at present. But before that he posted from a BBS in
Australia. You only have to look at their postings to realize that they
are not the same person.
I will admit that what Lee says can be safely ignored 50% of the time,
but at other times he makes real sense.
As the rules of this echo state: PUSU.
What do you base that conclusion on? It is true that Lee posts from Bj.rn's BBS at present. But before that he posted from a BBS in Australia. You only have to look at their postings to realize that they are not the same person.
I will admit that what Lee says can be safely ignored 50% of the time, but at other times he makes real sense.
As the rules of this echo state: PUSU.
Bjorn recently accidentally posted a message, as if from himself but with Lee's name in the from field, in a FIDO sysop-only echo. It was in response to me pointing out that "Lee" once netmailed me about things
that would only be relevant if he were a sysop, which Bjorn is and "Lee" is not and, once I pointed that out to "Lee," he did not respond back.
Bjorn tried to backtrack the sysop-only echo post by saying he believes
in free speech and that non-sysop Lee therefore has access. That only half-explains why a message obviously written as if from Bjorn was
"from" Lee.
The purpose of debate is to argue the point. Therefore, those who
do not wish to argue are unable to debate. Not in a civil manner,
anyway.
You said it way better than I did. :)
On 15 Feb 2022, Brian Indy said the following...
Echomail orHave you ever had your mind changed on a topic because of an
internet debate/argument? Yeah, me neither.
Not dramatically, no. But I've gained insight into how other peoplesee
things and have occasionally changed the way that I look at certain
things.
However, I don't traffic in lies and misinformation. I make effortsto
ensure that my views are fact-based. Any rational person, uponshould
discovering that their views are based on lies and misinformation,
re-evaluate said views in this new light.
Fact based? Where, in this day and age of social media, do we ever find facts?
This whole debate about arguing and debating reminds me of an old Monty Python skit.
https://youtu.be/ohDB5gbtaEQ
Would yo like a full argument, or would you prefer taking a course?
Lee is not a real person but the alter ego of a FIDO sysop who also
sometimes posts here. What "Lee" says can safely be ignored 99.9% of
the time.
Thanks for the heads-up...but I would prefer to let people prove, by their own acts, that they should be ignored before I do so. If he truly is an 'alt' of someone else who comments a lot, it will become obvious to me soon
enough.
Having said that, I don't understand why that information is important, considering I wasn't responding to him, nor really discussing anything specific that Lee had said...
You only have to look at their postings to realize that they
are not the same person.
Don't assume that everyone passed English class with the same high grade as
you. :)
whoThe purpose of debate is to argue the point. Therefore, those
manner,do not wish to argue are unable to debate. Not in a civil
anyway.
You said it way better than I did. :)
Lee's point is that debate *is* argument. Debate is not an "exchange of ideas." The arguments made in a debate are not above criticism or rebuttal;
criticism and rebuttal are in fact the goal of debate.
What does it matter if Lee is a "sysop" or not? For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
Jeff.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)
This whole debate about arguing and debating reminds me of an old Monty
Python skit.
https://youtu.be/ohDB5gbtaEQ
Would yo like a full argument, or would you prefer taking a course?
Sorry. I can only take John Cleese in small doses. :)
You do not understand. You are now his official shrink. He has
confided to you his worst nightmare, which apparently is me. Time
to do your job, Dr. Buzza.
What does it matter if Lee is a "sysop" or not? For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
What does it matter if Lee is a "sysop" or not? For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
You don't really think that's true, do you? (o_O)
Yes, the bare board Pi Zero W only costs $10 USD. But it would be completely useless without adding $10 for the power supply, and $20-ish for a microSD card. And it would still be pretty useless without some
way to interact with the device; most people use a screen, a keyboard,
and a mouse. Assuming you pay only $10 each, that's another $30, for a grand total of $70. And that's probably a low estimate! This doesn't
even consider the continuing cost of electricity and internet access...
What does it matter if Lee is a "sysop" or not? For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
I dare you to put up a BBS for a measley $10 and become a sysop.
What does it matter if Lee is a "sysop" or not? For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
You don't really think that's true, do you? (o_O)
Yes, the bare board Pi Zero W only costs $10 USD. But it would be completely useless without adding $10 for the power supply, and $20-ish for a microSD card. And it would still be pretty useless without some
way to interact with the device; most people use a screen, a keyboard,
and a mouse. Assuming you pay only $10 each, that's another $30, for a grand total of $70. And that's probably a low estimate! This doesn't
even consider the continuing cost of electricity and internet access...
One would probably want some sort of protective case for the Pi, as well. Another $20. And then there's shipping...What does it matter if Lee is a "sysop" or not? For the cost of Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
On 16 Feb 2022, Brian Indy said the following...
What does it matter if Lee is a "sysop" or not? For the cost of a$10
Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
I dare you to put up a BBS for a measley $10 and become a sysop.
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is
all it takes. The BBS doesn't even need to be online all the time if the sysop is the only one using it.
Are you doubting that this can be done? Are you perhaps assuming that a BBS needs multiple users in order for the operator to be a "sysop?"
Although I'm not doing so currently, I've run Mystic on a Pi Zero W. It does just fine.
What does it matter if Lee is a "sysop" or not? For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
I dare you to put up a BBS for a measley $10 and become a sysop.
Double Dog dare... It ain't happening.
Those are incidental costs, and not beyond the means of the average FidoNet user. A display, keyboard, and mouse are not required for a headless setup. Presumably a FidoNet user already has a computer with which they can ssh (or telnet) into the BBS machine. The "power supply"
is an ordinary phone charger. And $20 is pretty steep for a low-end SD card. The storage requirements for a bare-bones BBS running under Linux are not that great at all.
A protective case is not required, and shipping is fairly low for something of that size and weight.
Although I'm not doing so currently, I've run Mystic on a Pi Zero W. It does just fine.
Those are incidental costs, and not beyond the means of the average FidoNet user. A display, keyboard, and mouse are not required for a headless setup. Presumably a FidoNet user already has a computer with which they can ssh (or telnet) into the BBS machine. The "power suppl is an ordinary phone charger. And $20 is pretty steep for a low-end S card. The storage requirements for a bare-bones BBS running under Lin are not that great at all.
Incidental or not, they are more than $10. You did not specify "average FidoNet user", you said *anyone*. Including someone who has absolutely no computers or peripherals. And including someone who has never heard of
ssh or telnet. Also including someone who doesn't have a phone, and therefore has no charger. $20 is pretty average for a brand new microSD card. I would never recommend someone to buy a used one.
A protective case is not required, and shipping is fairly low for something of that size and weight.
Not required, but pretty strongly suggested. You know, because shorting a
contact can kill a Pi...and shipping for *all* the things one would need to get set up could be surprisingly high.
You really don't like admitting when you're wrong, do you?`
Although I'm not doing so currently, I've run Mystic on a Pi Zero W. does just fine.
Just because it runs, doesn't mean it runs 'just fine'. On a Pi with
such low specs, I would be very surprised if you could run a *populated* BBS without hiccups. Hell, I'm using a 3B, and PiBBS is not what I can call busy, and I still see hiccups. Then again, PiBBS isn't the only
thing running on there.
I'm not wrong.
Jeff.
Most people these days have, or can access, these things. And we were talking about Lee, who is in fact a FidoNet user. I certainly wouldn't
pay $20 for a new 4Gb microSD card.
For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
I'm not wrong.
Jeff.
Thank you.
All that's really needed is a phone charger, a low-capacity microSD
card, and the Pi itself. While you have said that you wouldn't re-use an existing microSD card, there is no rule that says one can't. And while a Pi may be somewhat difficult to come across locally right now, the
others can be had without shipping, possibly even for free if one asked nicely.
You really don't like admitting when you're wrong, do you?`
I'm not wrong.
Most people these days have, or can access, these things. And we were talking about Lee, who is in fact a FidoNet user. I certainly wouldn' pay $20 for a new 4Gb microSD card.
No, we were *not* talking about Lee. Let me remind you:
I wouldn't pay $20 for a new 4GB microSD, either. Then again, I cannot actually find a store that still sells them. I'm sure you will scour the internet looking for one, though, just to avoid the simple fact that you are flat out wrong.
I don't have to. I buy microSD cards on a regular basis and don't pay $20 for something as small as 4Gb.
All that's really needed is a phone charger, a low-capacity microSD card, and the Pi itself. While you have said that you wouldn't re-use existing microSD card, there is no rule that says one can't. And whil Pi may be somewhat difficult to come across locally right now, the others can be had without shipping, possibly even for free if one ask nicely.
You cannot even install an OS on the Pi without a screen and keyboard.
So, these are needed as well. There is no rule that says one can't take
a piss on the damn thing either, but it's a really bad idea.
In the context of the conversation, yes we were. "Anyone" can refer to
the average person as well as being taken literally.
I don't have to. I buy microSD cards on a regular basis and don't pay
$20 for something as small as 4Gb.
I don't have to. I buy microSD cards on a regular basis and don't pay for something as small as 4Gb.
Amazon has a Pi compatible 4GB SD Card HC rated for $6.94 and free shipping.
So now how are you going to get a Raspberry Pi W with the $3.06 you have left.
Oh..don't forget a power supply, ethernet cable, keyboard, mouse, and
some kind of disply for setup.
I don't have to. I buy microSD cards on a regular basis and don't pay for something as small as 4Gb.
Amazon has a Pi compatible 4GB SD Card HC rated for $6.94 and free shipping.
So now how are you going to get a Raspberry Pi W with the $3.06 you have left.
I wouldn't pay $20 for a new 4GB microSD, either. Then again, I cannot actually find a store that still sells them. I'm sure you will scour the internet looking for one, though, just to avoid the simple fact that you are flat out wrong.
Sure you can. You ssh into it and do the setup that way. Or borrow a keyboard, mouse, and display for the purposes of installing the OS.
There are plenty of options.
In the context of the conversation, yes we were. "Anyone" can refer t the average person as well as being taken literally.
The average person doesn't even know what a BBS is. This does not help your case at all.
I don't have to. I buy microSD cards on a regular basis and don't pay $20 for something as small as 4Gb.
When was the last time you bought something that small? When was the last time your provider of microSD cards even carried them?
The point is still the same: not "anyone" can be a SysOp for $10 or less. Some people can, for sure. But not "anyone". And a second point is that a functional Pi Zero W will cost more than $10.
You can keep denying it all you want, but you know this just as well as
I do.
Oh..don't forget a power supply, ethernet cable, keyboard, mouse, and
some kind of disply for setup.
Oh..don't forget a power supply, ethernet cable, keyboard, mouse, and some kind of disply for setup.
Not to mention the case, the router and/or modem, the internet bill, the hydro...
You're also completely ignoring the fact that I've outlined how someone could become a sysop for no cost whatsoever, which is approximately $10 less than the cost of a Pi Zero W.
Sure you can. You ssh into it and do the setup that way. Or borrow a keyboard, mouse, and display for the purposes of installing the OS. There are plenty of options.
Really? ssh into a Pi that cannot even boot? Care to explain how that works?
Even if one did find someone who just happened to have spare
peripherals lying around to be borrowed, how do you get an OS onto a completely blank microSD? Gonna borrow an entire computer, while you're
at it? Meanwhile, you now owe that friend a favor, and that's worth a
heck of a lot more than $10.
Just admit it. Stop trying to bluster your way out of the hole you dug yourself, and admit it: not "anyone" can be a SysOp for $10.
The average person doesn't even know what a BBS is. This does not hel your case at all.
That does not preclude them from setting one up if they decided to.
When was the last time you bought something that small? When was the time your provider of microSD cards even carried them?
Last week.
The point is still the same: not "anyone" can be a SysOp for $10 or l Some people can, for sure. But not "anyone". And a second point is th functional Pi Zero W will cost more than $10.
Not if one already has parts on hand. And you're using a definition of "anyone" that is different from the one I intended based on context.
Phone chargers and microSD cards are extremely easy to come by cheaply. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. The point still stands that a person can become a "sysop" for very little investment.
For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
All the groceries you had to buy to keep yourself alive for decades just so that you could set up a BBS, the cost your parents paid for your
birth, and on and on and on. The average person who would be interested
in becoming a "sysop" already has access to these things.
Sure. You put an empty file named "ssh" and a file containing WiFi particulars named "wpa_supplicant.conf" into the boot partition of the fresh Raspian SD card. When the Pi is booted from that SD card, it automatically connects to WiFi and enables the ssh server. From there,
you run raspi-config and complete the setup.
You're also completely ignoring the fact that I've outlined how someo could become a sysop for no cost whatsoever, which is approximately $ less than the cost of a Pi Zero W.
And you're completely ignoring the fact that the average person would
have no idea how to do so. Heck, even if you gave the average person everything he/she needs, and said "Here. Build a BBS," that average
person would probably look at you like you'd just grown a third head.
at it? Meanwhile, you now owe that friend a favor, and that's worth a heck of a lot more than $10.
You could prepare the SD card at a library, and then use a smart phone from there, if absolutely necessary.
Just admit it. Stop trying to bluster your way out of the hole you du yourself, and admit it: not "anyone" can be a SysOp for $10.
It is definitely possible to do, especially if one has certain resources already available for other purposes.
You're also completely ignoring the fact that I've outlined how someo could become a sysop for no cost whatsoever, which is approximately $ less than the cost of a Pi Zero W.
And you're completely ignoring the fact that the average person would
have no idea how to do so. Heck, even if you gave the average person everything he/she needs, and said "Here. Build a BBS," that average
person would probably look at you like you'd just grown a third head.
The average person doesn't even know what a BBS is. This does no your case at all.
That does not preclude them from setting one up if they decided to.
Their complete lack of knowledge might, though... (o_O)
When was the last time you bought something that small? When was time your provider of microSD cards even carried them?
Last week.
I challenge you to provide a reciept.
The point is still the same: not "anyone" can be a SysOp for $10 Some people can, for sure. But not "anyone". And a second point functional Pi Zero W will cost more than $10.
Not if one already has parts on hand. And you're using a definition o "anyone" that is different from the one I intended based on context.
Um, no. I'm using the only definition of "anyone" that matches the
context and structure of your original statement.
Phone chargers and microSD cards are extremely easy to come by cheapl You're making a mountain out of a molehill. The point still stands th person can become a "sysop" for very little investment.
That's not the point you made, though, is it? I'll quote you again:
For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
This is absolutely false.
I'm not denying that it's much easier to become a SysOp now than it was
a few decades ago. Mostly because that's not what you said.
I didn't make this mountain. You did, by not simply saying "Okay, you're right. I was exaggerating." Here we are, hours later, and you're still refusing to admit it!
All the groceries you had to buy to keep yourself alive for decades j so that you could set up a BBS, the cost your parents paid for your birth, and on and on and on. The average person who would be interest in becoming a "sysop" already has access to these things.
That doesn't mean they're free.
Show them how to Google and they'll be fine. Google costs nothing. Google Cloud costs nothing for the free tier. Google Cloud tutorials cost nothing. If they really want to do it, all of the tools they need are available to them. For free.
You managed to set up a BBS on a Raspberry Pi. How did you come by that knowledge? I assume it had something to do with a set of free YouTube videos by Avon, aka Mystic Guy, but go ahead, do tell us.
When was the last time you bought something that small? Whe time your provider of microSD cards even carried them?
Last week.
I challenge you to provide a reciept.
Brian has already found you one for under $7 on Amazon. Ask him for a link.
Sure. You put an empty file named "ssh" and a file containing WiFi particulars named "wpa_supplicant.conf" into the boot partition of th fresh Raspian SD card. When the Pi is booted from that SD card, it automatically connects to WiFi and enables the ssh server. From there you run raspi-config and complete the setup.
A blank microSD would not have PiOS (that's what it's called now, btw)
on it. And a second computer to install it falls well outside of the $10 budget.
You could prepare the SD card at a library, and then use a smart phon from there, if absolutely necessary.
Sure, because every library computer already has the software required. And even if it didn't (which it won't), they're definitely not locked
down so "the average person" cannot install software. Sorry, no smart phones. That's outside the $10 budget.
Just admit it. Stop trying to bluster your way out of the hole y yourself, and admit it: not "anyone" can be a SysOp for $10.
It is definitely possible to do, especially if one has certain resour already available for other purposes.
I didn't say it was impossible. I am saying not "anyone" can do it.
Um, no. I'm using the only definition of "anyone" that matches the context and structure of your original statement.
Nope.
That's not the point you made, though, is it? I'll quote you again:
For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop.
There was that point, and the more general point that it illustrated.
This is absolutely false.
I have done it.
From the point of the BBS they are, if they were already acquired for other purposes.
Show them how to Google and they'll be fine. Google costs nothing. Go Cloud costs nothing for the free tier. Google Cloud tutorials cost nothing. If they really want to do it, all of the tools they need are available to them. For free.
What's that, M'tibi? You don't know how to spell Google? Don't worry, buddy, I'll spend years of my life teaching you how to read and write English! Then I'll spend MORE years answering all the questions you're going to have that Google can't answer...
Not if the smart phone was already acquired for other purposes. We're not talking about some naked guy on a deserted island with only coconuts at his disposal here. Most people have these things.
I was referring to the average person, like Lee, who might have an interest in setting up a BBS.
If you'd like to see a BBS running on a Pi Zero W or Google Cloud, I
could probably arrange that. But before I go through the trouble, I'll need to find out how you are expecting to know the hardware that a BBS
is running on just by logging into it. Surely you wouldn't just take my word for it...
And with that, I'm out. I don't have time for this nonsense.
On 02-16-22 17:31, Mike Powell <=-
spoke to Dale Shipp about Re: New to POLITICS <=-
What do you base that conclusion on? It is true that Lee posts from
Bj.rn's BBS at present. But before that he posted from a BBS in
Australia. You only have to look at their postings to realize that they
are not the same person.
I will admit that what Lee says can be safely ignored 50% of the time,
but at other times he makes real sense.
As the rules of this echo state: PUSU.
Bjorn recently accidentally posted a message, as if from himself but
with Lee's name in the from field, in a FIDO sysop-only echo. It was in response to me pointing out that "Lee" once netmailed me about things
that would only be relevant if he were a sysop, which Bjorn is and
"Lee" is not and, once I pointed that out to "Lee," he did not respond back.
Bjorn tried to backtrack the sysop-only echo post by saying he
believes in free speech and that non-sysop Lee therefore has access.
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is
all it takes. The BBS doesn't even need to be online all the time if the sysop is the only one using it.
Are you doubting that this can be done? Are you perhaps assuming that a BBS needs multiple users in order for the operator to be a "sysop?"
I think we need to stiplate that in order for someone to be running something that qualifies as "a BBS" we need to stipulate that it is available for users.
Jeff Thiele wrote to Brian Indy <=-
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is
all it takes. The BBS doesn't even need to be online all the time if
the sysop is the only one using it.
Brian Indy wrote to Jeff Thiele <=-
Amazon has a Pi compatible 4GB SD Card HC rated for $6.94 and free shipping.
So now how are you going to get a Raspberry Pi W with the $3.06 you
have left.
Oh..don't forget a power supply, ethernet cable, keyboard, mouse, and
some kind of disply for setup.
Shaun Buzza wrote to Jeff Thiele <=-
Just admit it. Stop trying to bluster your way out of the hole you dug yourself, and admit it: not "anyone" can be a SysOp for $10.
Shaun Buzza wrote to Jeff Thiele <=-
I've never suggested that I was "average". And stop using misdirection.
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection i all it takes. The BBS doesn't even need to be online all the time if the sysop is the only one using it.
And the weaseling continues.
Standard Leftie Tactic: When you start to lose the argument, change the argument in some way. In this case, redefining "setting up a BBS".
Oh..don't forget a power supply, ethernet cable, keyboard, mouse, and some kind of disply for setup.
Don't forget the USB hub needed to hook that stuff up. (And since the Pi0W is wireless, I assume that to keep the costs down, it will be a wireless internet connection, so no ethernet cable needed - but I hope
he knows how to configure his Pi and router for a static IP address).
Just admit it. Stop trying to bluster your way out of the hole you du yourself, and admit it: not "anyone" can be a SysOp for $10.
He can't. Lefties are incapable of admitting they are wrong and will always double down on their bad decisions.
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is
all it takes. The BBS doesn't even need to be online all the time if the sysop is the only one using it.
Are you doubting that this can be done? Are you perhaps assuming that a BBS needs multiple users in order for the operator to be a "sysop?"
<Squawk!>Lefties always this!<Squawk!>Lefties always that!<Squawk!>
<Squawk!>Lefties always this!<Squawk!>Lefties always that!<Squawk!>
<Squawk!>Lefties always this!<Squawk!>Lefties always that!<Squawk!>
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection i all it takes. The BBS doesn't even need to be online all the time if sysop is the only one using it.
Are you doubting that this can be done? Are you perhaps assuming that BBS needs multiple users in order for the operator to be a "sysop?"
Um, no, sorry. THIS is where the 'weaseling out' began...
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection i all it takes. The BBS doesn't even need to be online all the time if sysop is the only one using it.
Are you doubting that this can be done? Are you perhaps assuming that BBS needs multiple users in order for the operator to be a "sysop?"
Um, no, sorry. THIS is where the 'weaseling out' began...
Are you doubting that this can be done? Are you perhaps assuming that BBS needs multiple users in order for the operator to be a "sysop?"
Um, no, sorry. THIS is where the 'weaseling out' began...
I will admit that in the strictest sense of the word "anyone," which is not the sense that I intended, what I said could be construed as being
in error.
I will revise my statement to be that anyone with access to a computer
and the internet can become a "sysop" without any further expenditures.
In order to make it EVEN EASIER to become a sysop, I was going to make a docker image of MysticBBS. But wait, look!
https://hub.docker.com/r/kalrong/mysticbbs
That already exists.
So really all one needs to do is create a free Google Cloud account, create a new instance within the limits of the Google Cloud free tier, point it to that docker image, and voila! One is a "sysop."
Additionally, one can apply for FidoNet (or other net) access and set up
a dynamic DNS account (both of which are also free).
One could do all of this at a library or other location, without needing one's own computer, electricity, or internet access.
So really all one needs to do is create a free Google Cloud account, create a new instance within the limits of the Google Cloud free tier point it to that docker image, and voila! One is a "sysop." Additionally, one can apply for FidoNet (or other net) access and set a dynamic DNS account (both of which are also free).Ugh, and you were doing so well! Do you really want to re-open this can
of worms? Please, sir, let sleeping dogs lie.
I'm getting a lot closer to the literal meaning of "anyone," aren't I? Does that make you uncomfortable?
On 17 Feb 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...
So really all one needs to do is create a free Google Cloud acco create a new instance within the limits of the Google Cloud free point it to that docker image, and voila! One is a "sysop." Additionally, one can apply for FidoNet (or other net) access an a dynamic DNS account (both of which are also free).Ugh, and you were doing so well! Do you really want to re-open this c of worms? Please, sir, let sleeping dogs lie.
One could do all of this at a library or other location, without need one's own computer, electricity, or internet access.
Ugh, and you were doing so well! Do you really want to re-open this can
of worms? Please, sir, let sleeping dogs lie.
Here's a free online web-based ssh/telnet client one can use to
administer one's El Cheapo BBS, in case the computer one is using
doesn't allow one to use a native client.
https://sshwifty.herokuapp.com/
Only people in the most primitive of situations would not be able to do this for little to nothing.
I'm getting a lot closer to the literal meaning of "anyone," aren't I Does that make you uncomfortable?
Not in the least. I just thought you were done making a fool of yourself. What happened to that 'revised statement'? Let it go, dude.
Not in the least. I just thought you were done making a fool of yours What happened to that 'revised statement'? Let it go, dude.
I have not made a fool of myself. Through our discussion, I have gotten the cost of becoming a "sysop" down to practically $0. Thanks for challenging me to pursue it further.
Here's a free online web-based ssh/telnet client one can use to administer one's El Cheapo BBS, in case the computer one is using doesn't allow one to use a native client.
https://sshwifty.herokuapp.com/
Only people in the most primitive of situations would not be able to this for little to nothing.
You're like a pitbull right now. Once you latch on to something, you just refuse to let go. You've already revised your statement. Why are you
still trying to defend the original?
Not in the least. I just thought you were done making a fool of What happened to that 'revised statement'? Let it go, dude.
I have not made a fool of myself. Through our discussion, I have gott the cost of becoming a "sysop" down to practically $0. Thanks for challenging me to pursue it further.
What? (o_O)
Only a fool would think 'Let it go, dude.' means 'pursue it further'! Do you actually read what you type before you click send?
You're like a pitbull right now. Once you latch on to something, you refuse to let go. You've already revised your statement. Why are you still trying to defend the original?
Because it's defensible.
Yes, I do. However, I am not obligated to stop correcting your false characterization of me just because you say (or sing?) "Let It Go."
I have not made a fool of myself. Through our discussion, I have gotten the cost of becoming a "sysop" down to practically $0. Thanks for challenging me to pursue it further.
You're like a pitbull right now. Once you latch on to something, refuse to let go. You've already revised your statement. Why are still trying to defend the original?
Because it's defensible.
You spent the entire night failing to defend it, and finally admitted
this morning that you should have worded it differently.
Down, boy! Heel!
Yes, I do. However, I am not obligated to stop correcting your false characterization of me just because you say (or sing?) "Let It Go."
Let me guess...pretty soon you're going to start chanting
<Squak!>Let it go.<Squak!>
I'm pretty sure my characterization of you is spot on. You're not really interested in exchanging ideas, you're just arguing for the sake of argument.
The prevailing opinion of others in this echo seems to agree with that characterization, from what I can see.
I have not made a fool of myself. Through our discussion, I have gott the cost of becoming a "sysop" down to practically $0. Thanks for challenging me to pursue it further.
Sorry...you've done no such thing. Talking about it isn't doing it.
Build that $10 BBS or shut up.
You spent the entire night failing to defend it, and finally admitted this morning that you should have worded it differently.
I defended what I said. That you chose to misinterpret what I meant was not my fault. I admitted this morning that such a misinterpretation was possible, and changed the wording to prevent any such misinterpretation.
However, that does not mean that the original statement was incorrect.
It intrigues me to find the lowest-cost-possible, most-widely-accessible means to become a "sysop." And also, to elevate Lee to this most revered and elite status, so that he doesn't have to worry about being chided
for daring to post in a "sysop-only echo," which sounds rather like
daring to enter the teachers' lounge or something.
The "anyone" portion was just one piece of the hurdle puzzle, though. We determined that a keyboard, mouse, and display were not necessary, and
now not even owning a computer, phone charger, or SD card is a requirement.
Regarding your example of the primitive African, even that is not the problem it seems. Africa has made advances in internet availability, and remote solutions such as community networks, Wireless User Groups, and other local, community-based efforts are known to exist. Years ago, the One Laptop Per Child was designed to use this very principle, where
each computer not only had access to the network but was actively
involved in propagating it onwards. Presumably Africans are not as technologically ignorant as you choose to portray them.
Down, boy! Heel!
I'm not your dog, sorry.
Let me guess...pretty soon you're going to start chanting
<Squak!>Let it go.<Squak!>
<Squak?> I think you broke your parrot.
I'm pretty sure my characterization of you is spot on. You're not rea interested in exchanging ideas, you're just arguing for the sake of argument.
Sure I am interested in exchanging ideas. Didn't I tell you how to boot a headless Pi with WiFi and ssh access? Didn't I take into account each of your criticisms of my statement and further evolve it into an entirely free solution?
The prevailing opinion of others in this echo seems to agree with tha characterization, from what I can see.
Only among conservatives.
Build that $10 BBS or shut up.
I can certainly do that, but how iwll you now how much it cost?
The "anyone" portion was just one piece of the hurdle puzzle, though. determined that a keyboard, mouse, and display were not necessary, an now not even owning a computer, phone charger, or SD card is a requirement.
"We" have determined no such thing. Your original statement continues to be that a $10 Pi Zero W is all 'anyone' needs to become a SysOp. And
that is simply false, because there are other expenses that you keep trying to deny. For the record, your Google Cloud example has nothing to do with a Pi Zero W, which is why I have refused to even discuss it.
Regarding your example of the primitive African, even that is not the problem it seems. Africa has made advances in internet availability, remote solutions such as community networks, Wireless User Groups, an other local, community-based efforts are known to exist. Years ago, t One Laptop Per Child was designed to use this very principle, where each computer not only had access to the network but was actively involved in propagating it onwards. Presumably Africans are not as technologically ignorant as you choose to portray them.
Misdirection again.
I was already fully aware of how to use a headless Pi, because I have
much training and practice.
You
certainly tried to evolve it in a way that it had absolutely nothing to
do with your statement. And I have repeatedly forced you to stick to the original.
The prevailing opinion of others in this echo seems to agree wit characterization, from what I can see.
Only among conservatives.
I've already shown you that I do not fall under the label of 'conservative'. You are, once again, wrong.
Build that $10 BBS or shut up.
I can certainly do that, but how iwll you now how much it cost?
You seem to have broke your keyboard...
Certainly, we could never know how much it costs, since you can't even provide any proof of that 4GB microSD card you supposedly bought last week.
The fact remains, it is impossible to build a BBS, or any other project, on a Pi Zero W, with just $10 and no other resources. After shipping,
the bare circuit board alone would already be over that budget.
I have not made a fool of myself. Through our discussion, I have gott the cost of becoming a "sysop" down to practically $0. Thanks for challenging me to pursue it further.
Sorry...you've done no such thing. Talking about it isn't doing it.
Build that $10 BBS or shut up.
Build that $10 BBS or shut up.
The fact remains, it is impossible to build a BBS, or any other project, on a Pi Zero W, with just $10 and no other resources. After shipping,
the bare circuit board alone would already be over that budget.
If you want to get technical, the original claim was that anyone could become a sysop *for the cost of* an RPi Zero W.
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is all it takes.
Nope, that is directly addressing your concern for your hypothetical African man; I believe his name was "M'tibi."
Then why did you ask me to explain how to ssh into an unconfigured Pi?
The original statement was "for the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W." The Google Cloud solution fits that requirement. I'm setting up a BBS on Google Cloud now, and just might have enough left in my budget to buy myself a cup of coffee.
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is all it takes.
The prevailing opinion of others in this echo seems to agre characterization, from what I can see.
Only among conservatives.
I've already shown you that I do not fall under the label of 'conservative'. You are, once again, wrong.
It takes more than you to make a "prevailing opinion."
Ah, but is it possible to build a BBS for *the cost of* a $10 Raspberry
Pi Zero W? That was the original claim, was it not?
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is all it takes.
It intrigues me to find the lowest-cost-possible, most-widely-accessi means to become a "sysop." And also, to elevate Lee to this most reve and elite status, so that he doesn't have to worry about being chided for daring to post in a "sysop-only echo," which sounds rather like daring to enter the teachers' lounge or something.
It amuses me to think that you believe that was the big gripe that Mike had with Lee.
If you want to get technical, the original claim was that anyone coul become a sysop *for the cost of* an RPi Zero W.
Really? Do you not remember saying this:
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is it takes.
I've set up a stock Mystic BBS instance at 35.239.230.85, port 3232. It will be available for a limited time only.
This BBS cost me nothing to set up, and costs me nothing to run.
It is possible to build one for *the cost of* a $10 RPi Zero W, which
was the claim I made.
35.239.230.85, port 3232, limited time only.
Total cost: $0.
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is all it takes.
If you want to get technical, the original claim was that anyone coul become a sysop *for the cost of* an RPi Zero W.
Really? Do you not remember saying this:
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is it takes.
For what it's worth, Mike has also accused Al Ianson and I of being the same person. I neither confirm nor deny that we are one and the same.
Jeff (and maybe Al?).
That was not the original claim. As it stands, that right there, with a little temporary help from friends and other resources, is indeed all it takes.
Then why did you ask me to explain how to ssh into an unconfigured Pi
If you cannot understand what a rhetorical question is, perhaps you
should return to school.
The original statement was "for the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W The Google Cloud solution fits that requirement. I'm setting up a BBS Google Cloud now, and just might have enough left in my budget to buy myself a cup of coffee.
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is it takes.
Point out where that says anything about cloud services of any kind. If you can't, perhaps you should stop trying to vindicate yourself.
The prevailing opinion of others in this echo seems to characterization, from what I can see.
Only among conservatives.
I've already shown you that I do not fall under the label of 'conservative'. You are, once again, wrong.
It takes more than you to make a "prevailing opinion."
But, you just said that only conservatives have that prevailing opinion that I fully share? Once again, I must ask: do you actually read what
you type?
If you want to get technical, the original claim was that anyone become a sysop *for the cost of* an RPi Zero W.
Really? Do you not remember saying this:
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connectio it takes.
Actually, I misspoke. It turns out that's a bit more than it takes. I've set up a BBS for the cost of a Raspberry Pi Zero W, and I seem to have a Raspberry Pi Zero W left over.
Ah, but is it possible to build a BBS for *the cost of* a $10 Raspber Pi Zero W? That was the original claim, was it not?
It would have been, if you hadn't immediately followed up with:
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is it takes.
I've set up a stock Mystic BBS instance at 35.239.230.85, port 3232. will be available for a limited time only.
This BBS cost me nothing to set up, and costs me nothing to run.
And isn't running on a Pi of any kind.
It is possible to build one for *the cost of* a $10 RPi Zero W, which was the claim I made.
35.239.230.85, port 3232, limited time only.
Total cost: $0.
I have no interest in visiting *any* BBS in which you are the SysOp. And:
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is it takes.
Go on, then! Build a BBS on a Raspberry Pi Zero W with nothing but that $10 budget. And remember, anything you have laying around falls outside
of that budget.
For what it's worth, Mike has also accused Al Ianson and I of being t same person. I neither confirm nor deny that we are one and the same.
Jeff (and maybe Al?).
I neither confirm nor deny that your misdirections are worthless.
That was not the original claim. As it stands, that right there, with little temporary help from friends and other resources, is indeed all takes.
Nope, sorry. Friends weren't included in your statement. No 'other resources' were mentioned, either. Try again.
"Really? ssh into a Pi that cannot even boot? Care to explain how that works?" does not sound like a rhetorical question to me.
Actually, it doesn't even require the Pi. Cloud services already exist; one doesn't need to "acquire" them.
The prevailing opinion of others in this echo see characterization, from what I can see.
Only among conservatives.
I've already shown you that I do not fall under the label o 'conservative'. You are, once again, wrong.
It takes more than you to make a "prevailing opinion."
But, you just said that only conservatives have that prevailing opini that I fully share? Once again, I must ask: do you actually read what you type?
That is the prevailing opinion among conservatives, not the general consensus.
I've already shown you that I do not fall under the label o 'conservative'. You are, once again, wrong.
I've set up a stock Mystic BBS instance at 35.239.230.85, port 3232. It will be available for a limited time only.
This BBS cost me nothing to set up, and costs me nothing to run.
And isn't running on a Pi of any kind.
Nor did I say it would be. However, I have right here with me an unused Raspberry Pi Zero W, if that makes you feel any better.
I have built one, and have given you its location. And I didn't even use the Pi. Nowhere did anyone say that the BBS had to be running on the Pi.
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is all it takes.
There was also no restriction on using other, unnamed resources. The only restriction was the cost. It is possible to set up a BBS for the cost of
a Raspberry Pi Zero W.
Nope, sorry. Friends weren't included in your statement. No 'other resources' were mentioned, either. Try again.
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is all it takes.
Who's "weaseling" now?
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet conn it takes.
Actually, I misspoke. It turns out that's a bit more than it takes. I set up a BBS for the cost of a Raspberry Pi Zero W, and I seem to hav Raspberry Pi Zero W left over.
You've been misspeaking for the past day or so. You're certainly living
up to the liberal stereotype: "Never admit that you're wrong; just
change the facts until you aren't!"
"Really? ssh into a Pi that cannot even boot? Care to explain how tha works?" does not sound like a rhetorical question to me.
It's not my fault if you misinterpreted what I said. Sound familiar?
Actually, it doesn't even require the Pi. Cloud services already exis one doesn't need to "acquire" them.
Stop trying to change your story.
*Anyone* can spend only $10 and create a BBS on a Pi Zero W. That, a
copy of Mystic, and an internet connection (which, conveniently, isn't included in that $10) is all that's needed. Nothing else. No cloud, no friends, nothing.
This is what you said, paraphrased. You cannot change that fact, no
matter how hard you try.
That is the prevailing opinion among conservatives, not the general consensus.
I've already shown you that I do not fall under the la 'conservative'. You are, once again, wrong.
I've set up a stock Mystic BBS instance at 35.239.230.85, port 3232. will be available for a limited time only.
This BBS cost me nothing to set up, and costs me nothing to run.
So what? You said on a Pi Zero W 2 - admit it, you are wrong.
And isn't running on a Pi of any kind.
Nor did I say it would be. However, I have right here with me an unus Raspberry Pi Zero W, if that makes you feel any better.
Why would it? If it is unused, you have failed to prove your premise.
I have built one, and have given you its location. And I didn't even the Pi. Nowhere did anyone say that the BBS had to be running on the
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is it takes.
Pretty sure you said it.
I have not. I have set up a BBS for the cost of a Raspberry Pi Zero W (less, actually). I found a better way to do it than using a Pi Zero W
and revised my solution accordingly. It's done. It exists. It's running. You are the one who can't admit they're wrong.
There was also no restriction on using other, unnamed resources. The restriction was the cost. It is possible to set up a BBS for the cost a Raspberry Pi Zero W.
Nope, sorry. Friends weren't included in your statement. No 'oth resources' were mentioned, either. Try again.
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is it takes.
Who's "weaseling" now?
Still you.
It's not my fault if you misinterpreted what I said. Sound familiar?
"Care to explain how that works?" is the exact opposite of a rhetorical question.
Actually, it doesn't even require the Pi. Cloud services already one doesn't need to "acquire" them.
Stop trying to change your story.
I'm not changing my story, although I did change my solution. I found a way that cost nothing, let alone $10. It's done. It exists. It's running.
*Anyone* can spend only $10 and create a BBS on a Pi Zero W. That, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection (which, conveniently, isn' included in that $10) is all that's needed. Nothing else. No cloud, n friends, nothing.
That was not the claim. That is what you would like the claim to have been.
For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is all it takes.
This is what you said, paraphrased. You cannot change that fact, no matter how hard you try.
And by "paraphrased," I assume you mean "misquoted so that I can find
some way to save face." You've added stipulations that were never there.
That you side with the prevailing opinion of conservatives does not turn the conservatives' prevailing opinion into the prevailing opinion of the general population, no matter which side you do or do not affiliate with.
I have built one, and have given you its location. And I didn't the Pi. Nowhere did anyone say that the BBS had to be running on
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connectio it takes.
Pretty sure you said it.
Nope.
Nope. You even went so far as to "paraphrase" the original claim in a misleading and dishonest way, adding requirements that were never there
in the first place. Assumptions on your part are not requirements on
mine.
I have not. I have set up a BBS for the cost of a Raspberry Pi Zero W (less, actually). I found a better way to do it than using a Pi Zero and revised my solution accordingly. It's done. It exists. It's runni You are the one who can't admit they're wrong.
Changing the facts doesn't work. You still have not set up a BBS *on* a
Pi Zero W, which you spent a long time arguing was totally possible for nothing more than $10.
When multiple people pointed out the fallacy in
this, you changed your story, but then continued arguing that you could still do it.
And, you've totally abandoned the pretense that 'anyone' could do it.
All of your arguments to the contrary are invalid.
It's not my fault if you misinterpreted what I said. Sound famil
"Care to explain how that works?" is the exact opposite of a rhetoric question.
rhe-tor-i-cal ques-tion:
noun
a question asked in order to create a dramatic effect or to make a point rather than to get an answer
Actually, it doesn't even require the Pi. Cloud services al one doesn't need to "acquire" them.
Stop trying to change your story.
I'm not changing my story, although I did change my solution. I found way that cost nothing, let alone $10. It's done. It exists. It's runn
Congratulations! You've proved that your original premise was false! Yet, here we are, still listening to you claiming the opposite...
*Anyone* can spend only $10 and create a BBS on a Pi Zero W. Tha copy of Mystic, and an internet connection (which, conveniently, included in that $10) is all that's needed. Nothing else. No clo friends, nothing.
That was not the claim. That is what you would like the claim to have been.
And here we go again:
For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is it takes.
That was *exactly* the claim. Stop trying to get out of it.
This is what you said, paraphrased. You cannot change that fact, matter how hard you try.
And by "paraphrased," I assume you mean "misquoted so that I can find some way to save face." You've added stipulations that were never the
par-a-phrase
verb
express the meaning of the writer using different words, especially to achieve greater clarity
That you side with the prevailing opinion of conservatives does not t the conservatives' prevailing opinion into the prevailing opinion of general population, no matter which side you do or do not affiliate w
Misdirection, again! You specifically said that only conservatives have that opinion. I have proven to you that I am not strictly conservative, and yet I have that opinion as well. Therefore, you are wrong. Again.
I have built one, and have given you its location. And I di the Pi. Nowhere did anyone say that the BBS had to be runni
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet conn it takes.
Pretty sure you said it.
Nope.
Nope. You even went so far as to "paraphrase" the original claim in a misleading and dishonest way, adding requirements that were never the in the first place. Assumptions on your part are not requirements on mine.
Nope. Your statement was very clear. All it takes is a Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection. That specifically removes any
other resource. This is not assumption, nor is it misleading or
dishonest.
I defended what I said. That you chose to misinterpret what I meant was not my fault. I admitted this morning that such a misinterpretation was possible, and changed the wording to prevent any such misinterpretation. However, that does not mean that the original statement was incorrect.
For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is all it takes.
I see. So, what dramatic effect or point were you trying to make when you asked me to explain how to ssh into a Pi that hadn't been configured yet?
I can see how you could think it was a rhetorical question if you
thought I wouldn't have an answer to it. If you had known the answer previously, as you now claim, you would not have assumed that I did not have an answer and you would have not considered the question to be rhetorical.
But I did have an answer.
rhe-tor-i-cal ques-tion:
noun
a question asked in order to create a dramatic effect or to make a po rather than to get an answer
My original premise that one can build a BBS for the cost of a Raspberry Pi Zero W has not been proven false. I have proven that it is possible
for far less.
I misspoke in the second statement. A Raspberry Pi Zero W is not
required.
I stand by the original statement.
That was *exactly* the claim. Stop trying to get out of it.
That was one solution that would fulfill the requirements of the claim. I found a better solution.
This is what you said, paraphrased. You cannot change that matter how hard you try.
And by "paraphrased," I assume you mean "misquoted so that I can some way to save face." You've added stipulations that were neve
par-a-phrase
verb
express the meaning of the writer using different words, especially t achieve greater clarity
mis·quote
Never did I say that the BBS had to be running on a Pi.
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is all it takes.
I have said that I misspoke when I made that statement. A Pi is not required.
At this point, it is very clear that you're not actually getting my
words. Therefore, from now on, I shall just use your own:
I defended what I said. That you chose to misinterpret what I meant w not my fault. I admitted this morning that such a misinterpretation w possible, and changed the wording to prevent any such misinterpretati However, that does not mean that the original statement was incorrect
For reference, the original statement and the addendum, word for word,
is:
For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is it takes.
For God's sake man! You were *out*! Why did you get back into it? Just
for the sake of argument? That's the only imaginable reason.
I see. So, what dramatic effect or point were you trying to make when asked me to explain how to ssh into a Pi that hadn't been configured
I can see how you could think it was a rhetorical question if you thought I wouldn't have an answer to it. If you had known the answer previously, as you now claim, you would not have assumed that I did n have an answer and you would have not considered the question to be rhetorical.
But I did have an answer.
rhe-tor-i-cal ques-tion:
noun
a question asked in order to create a dramatic effect or to make rather than to get an answer
Where does this definition specify that a question is only rhetorical if the person being asked does not have an answer?
My original premise that one can build a BBS for the cost of a Raspbe Pi Zero W has not been proven false. I have proven that it is possibl for far less.
Incorrect. Your original premise was that all one needs to be a SysOp
was a $10 Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection. And that was proven false by *you*, when you chose a different method.
I misspoke in the second statement. A Raspberry Pi Zero W is not required.
I stand by the original statement.
Unfortunately, that's not how it works. The second statement is a direct addendum to the first. If one is false, both are.
That was *exactly* the claim. Stop trying to get out of it.
That was one solution that would fulfill the requirements of the clai found a better solution.
By doing so, you proved your own statement false.
This is what you said, paraphrased. You cannot change matter how hard you try.
And by "paraphrased," I assume you mean "misquoted so that some way to save face." You've added stipulations that were
par-a-phrase
verb
express the meaning of the writer using different words, especia achieve greater clarity
mis·quote
para³¸phrase
Never did I say that the BBS had to be running on a Pi.
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is it takes.
I have said that I misspoke when I made that statement. A Pi is not required.
Rendering your entire premise false.
For God's sake man! You were *out*! Why did you get back into it? Just
for the sake of argument? That's the only imaginable reason.
I have not made a fool of myself. Through our discussion, I have gotten
the cost of becoming a "sysop" down to practically $0. Thanks for
challenging me to pursue it further.
Sorry...you've done no such thing. Talking about it isn't doing it.
Build that $10 BBS or shut up.
Nope. You even went so far as to "paraphrase" the original claim in a misleading and dishonest way, adding requirements that were never the in the first place. Assumptions on your part are not requirements on mine.
Nope. Your statement was very clear. All it takes is a Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection. That specifically removes any
other resource. This is not assumption, nor is it misleading or
dishonest.
Sorry...you've done no such thing. Talking about it isn't doing it.
Build that $10 BBS or shut up.
There seems to be some misguided notion that all that you need to do to
be the "sysop" of a "BBS" is to download and run it, and there is never any need to configure everything to actually accept users, transport
mail, and run flawlessly, without the need for daily maintenance.
Again: why did you ask me to explain how it was done if you already knew how to do it?-----
No answer is expected for a rhetorical question.
-----Incorrect. Your original premise was that all one needs to be a SysOp was a $10 Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection. An that was proven false by *you*, when you chose a different method.
That was not my original premise.
For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is all it takes.
It was not a direct addendum; it was a defense which has since been abandoned.
The second statement, which specified that the minimial requirements for-----
a $10 BBS includes a Pi, is indeed false. No Pi is required. I've said that many times now.
However, the original premise, that a BBS could be built for the cost of
a Pi Zero W, has in fact been proven true.
For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is all it takes.
Your "paraphrase" did not achieve greater clarity; it introduced elements that were not in the original premise.
You could make a nifty keychain out of the Pi and still achieve the goal of the original premise. Nowhere does this dictate what must be run on
the Pi.
For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is all it takes.
When I choose to change the parameters of the original premise, I will
let you know. Until then, the original premise remains the only premise.
You've lost. I created a BBS for the cost of a Raspberry Pi Zero W and it's sitting on the internet for all to see. It's done. It exists. It's running. You lost.
I'm off to share this information with the world, in case anyone out
there wants to become a "sysop" on the cheap.
I don't know about you, but I don't do daily maintenance on my BBS. Not even monthly maintenance, really. I've set up scripts to handle those things, of course, but the only real maintenance it needs from me occurs when we have a power outage.
A "sysop" is the "System Operator" of a BBS.
A "sysop" is the "System Operator" of a BBS.
With such a hands-off approach, it is no surprise that I want nothing to do with any BBS operated by you.
When I choose to change the parameters of the original premise, I wil let you know. Until then, the original premise remains the only premi
You already did, by bringing in the concept of a cloud-based BBS?
Tell yourself whatever you need to, if it helps you sleep. Doesn't make
it fact. You still haven't created a BBS with a Pi Zero W on a $10
budget.
Please, share your information with the world! That way, you won't be sharing your male bovine feces here!
When I choose to change the parameters of the original premise, let you know. Until then, the original premise remains the only
You already did, by bringing in the concept of a cloud-based BBS?
The original premise involved the building of a BBS for less than the
cost of a Pi Zero W. That's it. No addendums, no further rules.
The original premise involved the building of a BBS for less than the
cost of a Pi Zero W. That's it. No addendums, no further rules.
For the cost of a Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is all it takes.
A cloud-based BBS fulfills the requirements of the original premise.
You've lost.
Blah, blah, blah.
Well, well, well, aren't you the gracious loser.
It's done. It exists. It's running. You've lost.
Tell yourself whatever you need to, if it helps you sleep. Doesn't ma it fact. You still haven't created a BBS with a Pi Zero W on a $10 budget.
I misspoke. The original premise involved the building of a BBS for the cost of a Pi Zero W. This mistake does not in any way alter the
original premise. However, the cloud-based BBS fulfills this erroneous statement of the premise as well.
Blah, blah, blah.
Well, well, well, aren't you the gracious loser.
It's done. It exists. It's running. You've lost.
Tell yourself whatever you need to, if it helps you sleep. Doesn it fact. You still haven't created a BBS with a Pi Zero W on a $ budget.
Aren't you supposed to be off telling the world how you failed to build a BBS on a Pi Zero W with a budget of $10?
Bjorn tried to backtrack the sysop-only echo post by saying he believes in free speech and that non-sysop Lee therefore has access. That only half-explains why a message obviously written as if from Bjorn was "from" Lee.
What does it matter if Lee is a "sysop" or not? For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
Yes, the bare board Pi Zero W only costs $10 USD. But it would be completely useless without adding $10 for the power supply, and $20-ish for a microSD card. And it would still be pretty useless without some way to interact with the device; most people use a screen, a keyboard, and a mouse. Assuming you pay only $10 each, that's another $30, for a grand total of $70. And that's probably a low estimate! This doesn't even consider the continuing cost of electricity and internet access...
Please note, I'm the SysOp of PiBBS. I feel like I know what I'm talking about in this instance.
Those are incidental costs, and not beyond the means of the average FidoNet user. A display, keyboard, and mouse are not required for a headless setup. Presumably a FidoNet user already has a computer with which they can ssh (or telnet) into the BBS machine. The "power supply" is an ordinary phone charger. And $20 is pretty steep for a low-end SD card. The storage requirements for a bare-bones BBS running under Linux are not that great at all.
Admit it. That was a dumb thing to say.
Most people these days have, or can access, these things. And we were talking about Lee, who is in fact a FidoNet user. I certainly wouldn't pay $20 for a new 4Gb microSD card.
And at any rate, one could set up a BBS for nothing in "The Cloud."
Don't forget the USB hub needed to hook that stuff up. (And since the Pi0W is wireless, I assume that to keep the costs down, it will be a wireless internet connection, so no ethernet cable needed - but I hope he knows how to configure his Pi and router for a static IP address).
Neither a USB hub nor a static IP address are required.
I've set up a stock Mystic BBS instance at 35.239.230.85, port 3232. It will be available for a limited time only.
This BBS cost me nothing to set up, and costs me nothing to run.
So what? You said on a Pi Zero W 2 - admit it, you are wrong.
Tell yourself whatever you need to, if it helps you sleep. Doesn't make
it fact. I've still created a BBS for the cost of a $10 Pi Zero W, and it's out there on the internet.
Tell yourself whatever you need to, if it helps you sleep. Doesn't make it fact. You still haven't created a BBS with a Pi Zero W on a $10 budget.
Nah, that would be the story you tell yourself to keep from having to admit that you've lost. The requirement that it be on a Pi is yours, and yours alone.
Blah, blah, blah.
For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is all it takes.
I run one of my other systems on a pi.
So now it is more than $10. Brian and Shaun are right.
Admit it. That was a dumb thing to say.
Don't hold your breath. ;)
Being a fidonet user does not mean one could pull it off. There is a guy who calls himself The Millionaire on DOVEnet. He is like a synchronet groupie. Knows how to post (a lot) on Vertuan, but he has yet to put his "future" BBS online (it has been probably two years), even with offers of free cloud hosting.
That he did. Once questioned, he moved the goalposts. Also, already being a sysop, he does not really meet the original definition of "anyone."
Bjorn tried to backtrack the sysop-only echo post by saying he beli in free speech and that non-sysop Lee therefore has access. That o half-explains why a message obviously written as if from Bjorn was "from" Lee.
What does it matter if Lee is a "sysop" or not? For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
What part of "sysop only" do you not understand?
Lee claims that he was harassed by Janis. Janis is gone. Nick Andre has offered him a Z1 number and a connection, but he always finds an excuse
to get out of it. My guess is that his IP address resolves to Sweden
and he wouldn't want Nick figuring that out.
Those are incidental costs, and not beyond the means of the average Fido user. A display, keyboard, and mouse are not required for a headless set Presumably a FidoNet user already has a computer with which they can ssh telnet) into the BBS machine. The "power supply" is an ordinary phone charger. And $20 is pretty steep for a low-end SD card. The storage requirements for a bare-bones BBS running under Linux are not that great all.
So now it is more than $10. Brian and Shaun are right.
Most people these days have, or can access, these things. And we were ta about Lee, who is in fact a FidoNet user. I certainly wouldn't pay $20 f new 4Gb microSD card.
And at any rate, one could set up a BBS for nothing in "The Cloud."
Being a fidonet user does not mean one could pull it off. There is a guy who calls himself The Millionaire on DOVEnet. He is like a synchronet groupie. Knows how to post (a lot) on Vertuan, but he has yet to put his "future" BBS online (it has been probably two years), even with offers of free cloud hosting.
Not "everybody/anybody," and not even everybody who is a fidonet user,
can figure it out.
Don't forget the USB hub needed to hook that stuff up. (And since Pi0W is wireless, I assume that to keep the costs down, it will be wireless internet connection, so no ethernet cable needed - but I h he knows how to configure his Pi and router for a static IP address
Neither a USB hub nor a static IP address are required.
So you are basically talking about setting up a point node. Running a point doesn't make you a sysop.
That he did. Once questioned, he moved the goalposts. Also, already being a sysop, he does not really meet the original definition of "anyone."
A point that he repeatedly ignored every time it was brought up.
So what? You said on a Pi Zero W 2 - admit it, you are wrong.
That he did. Once questioned, he moved the goalposts. Also, already being a sysop, he does not really meet the original definition of "anyone."
Admit it. That was a dumb thing to say.
Don't hold your breath. ;)
So now it is more than $10. Brian and Shaun are right.
I'm afraid you're a little behind in the discussion. We'll revisit this.
I've set up a stock Mystic BBS instance at 35.239.230.85, port 3232 will be available for a limited time only.
This BBS cost me nothing to set up, and costs me nothing to run.
So what? You said on a Pi Zero W 2 - admit it, you are wrong.
That he did. Once questioned, he moved the goalposts. Also, already being a sysop, he does not really meet the original definition of "anyone."
So now it is more than $10. Brian and Shaun are right.
I'm afraid you're a little behind in the discussion. We'll revisit th
Seems to me he's read the same messages we all have. And how could anyone revisit something that is still being visited?
Bjorn tried to backtrack the sysop-only echo post by saying he beli in free speech and that non-sysop Lee therefore has access. That o half-explains why a message obviously written as if from Bjorn was "from" Lee.
What does it matter if Lee is a "sysop" or not? For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
What part of "sysop only" do you not understand?
Lee claims that he was harassed by Janis. Janis is gone. Nick Andre has offered him a Z1 number and a connection, but he always finds an excuse
to get out of it. My guess is that his IP address resolves to Sweden
and he wouldn't want Nick figuring that out.
Bjorn tried to backtrack the sysop-only echo post by saying he beli in free speech and that non-sysop Lee therefore has access. That o half-explains why a message obviously written as if from Bjorn was "from" Lee.
What does it matter if Lee is a "sysop" or not? For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
What part of "sysop only" do you not understand?
Lee claims that he was harassed by Janis. Janis is gone. Nick Andre has offered him a Z1 number and a connection, but he always finds an excuse
to get out of it. My guess is that his IP address resolves to Sweden
and he wouldn't want Nick figuring that out.
Bjorn tried to backtrack the sysop-only echo post by saying he beli in free speech and that non-sysop Lee therefore has access. That o half-explains why a message obviously written as if from Bjorn was "from" Lee.
What does it matter if Lee is a "sysop" or not? For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
What part of "sysop only" do you not understand?
Lee claims that he was harassed by Janis. Janis is gone. Nick Andre has offered him a Z1 number and a connection, but he always finds an excuse
to get out of it. My guess is that his IP address resolves to Sweden
and he wouldn't want Nick figuring that out.
Bjorn tried to backtrack the sysop-only echo post by saying he beli in free speech and that non-sysop Lee therefore has access. That o half-explains why a message obviously written as if from Bjorn was "from" Lee.
What does it matter if Lee is a "sysop" or not? For the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W, anyone can be a "sysop."
What part of "sysop only" do you not understand?
Lee claims that he was harassed by Janis. Janis is gone. Nick Andre has offered him a Z1 number and a connection, but he always finds an excuse
to get out of it. My guess is that his IP address resolves to Sweden
and he wouldn't want Nick figuring that out.
Or wait... what if *I'm* Lee!
Good God, how did we miss this?
And what if you're "Aaron Thomas?"
What if this whole echo is just you and I arguing with each other via various alter egos? What if I'm really "Dale!" What if you're really
"Ron L.!"
Pshooo! Mind blown, man, mind blown!
Or wait... what if *I'm* Lee!
Good God, how did we miss this?
And what if you're "Aaron Thomas?"
What if this whole echo is just you and I arguing with each other via various alter egos? What if I'm really "Dale!" What if you're really "Ron L.!"
Pshooo! Mind blown, man, mind blown!
Man, I want what *he's* smoking! (@_@)
And it's legal for me to get it, too. Thank you, Trudeau!
Man, I want what *he's* smoking! (@_@)
And it's legal for me to get it, too. Thank you, Trudeau!
I got it from Mike.
Man, I want what *he's* smoking! (@_@)
And it's legal for me to get it, too. Thank you, Trudeau!
I got it from Mike.
I got it from the dispensary on Main Street. Paid too much for it, but at least I didn't have to hound anyone to get it.
Are you implying that I hounded Mike to get it? I did not; he shared it freely.
Have you considered the possibility that I *am* Mike?
Are you implying that I hounded Mike to get it? I did not; he shared freely.
No I am not. Are you misinterpreting me?
Have you considered the possibility that I *am* Mike?
Yes. But Mike is far more capable of making sense than you, so I
discarded that possibility.
Yes. Continuing down the rabbit hole means you will encounter a lot of rabbit feces. :)
I find it interesting that a participant enjoys making another
participant the issue rather than discussing the topic at hand,
or what is relevant in the echo called POLITICS.
You do not understand. You are now his official shrink. He has
confided to you his worst nightmare, which apparently is me. Time
to do your job, Dr. Buzza.
Yes. Continuing down the rabbit hole means you will encounter a lot rabbit feces. :)
You sure you didn't mean bull feces? 'Cause that's all I'm seeing
whenever Jeff speaks up...
And with that, I'm out. I don't have time for this nonsense.
And yet, here we are. Are we having fun yet?
I find it interesting that a participant enjoys making another participant the issue rather than discussing the topic at hand,
or what is relevant in the echo called POLITICS.
You do not understand. You are now his official shrink. He has confided to you his worst nightmare, which apparently is me. Time
to do your job, Dr. Buzza.
How am I doing, so far? Have the nightmares gone away? Or are they just beginning?
I find it interesting that a participant enjoys making another participant the issue rather than discussing the topic at hand,
or what is relevant in the echo called POLITICS.
You do not understand. You are now his official shrink. He has confided to you his worst nightmare, which apparently is me. Time
to do your job, Dr. Buzza.
How am I doing, so far? Have the nightmares gone away? Or are they just beginning?
On 16 Feb 2022, Jeff Thiele said the following...
And with that, I'm out. I don't have time for this nonsense.
And yet, here we are. Are we having fun yet?
That's why I asked. Your statement "but I didn't have to hound anyone to get it" implied that there was hounding going on by someone. Did you
just throw that in for kicks?
Have you considered the possibility that I *am* Mike?
Yes. But Mike is far more capable of making sense than you, so I discarded that possibility.
Perhaps Mike and I just make sense in different ways, and that's all
part of my plan. It's a good one, no?
For example, when I say that a BBS can be created for the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W -- AND THEN ACTUALLY DO IT -- that makes a certain amount of sense, don't you think?
Sure, mistakes were made and missteps taken, but the end result is a BBS that's been created for the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W.
For all your claims that I've "changed the story," surely it has not escaped your attention that the end result fulfills the requirements of the original, unchanged "story." Saying that I "changed the story"
implies that I modified the requirements but the fact that the end
result fulfills the requirements of the original "story" makes any allegations of a "changed" "story" irrelevant.
A sub-$10 BBS has been created.
It's currently accepting users on the internet.
You've lost.
BECAUSE JEFF IS JUST AN ANNOYING TROLL.
You sure you didn't mean bull feces? 'Cause that's all I'm seeing whenever Jeff speaks up...
Perhaps that's because every one of your replies to me is full of it.
What can I say, I got my second wind. And, incidentally, fulfilled the requirements of my claim.
I find it interesting that a participant enjoys making another participant the issue rather than discussing the topic at hand, or what is relevant in the echo called POLITICS.
You do not understand. You are now his official shrink. He has confided to you his worst nightmare, which apparently is me. Tim to do your job, Dr. Buzza.
How am I doing, so far? Have the nightmares gone away? Or are they ju beginning?
You're asking the wrong person. Lee wasn't referring to me when he said that, but Mike.
Or maybe you're insinuating that I'm "Mike?" Alas, I can neither confirm nor deny that, either. If I were "Mike," though, I would tell you that "Mike" hasn't been sleeping well lately. He seems to be having
difficulty following along in conversations and has recently resorted to typing entire sentences in all caps. If I were "Mike," of course. Which
I can neither confirm nor deny.
On 02-17-22 01:04, Al Thompson <=-
spoke to Jeff Thiele about New to POLITICS <=-
I think we need to stiplate that in order for someone to be
running something that qualifies as "a BBS" we need to
stipulate that it is available for users.
Shaun Buzza wrote to Jeff Thiele <=-
Very well! I fully agree with your revised statement. I have always maintained the opinion that it is much easier to build a BBS today than
it was in the '90s or '00s.
Shaun Buzza wrote to Jeff Thiele <=-
Really? Do you not remember saying this:
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is all it takes.
How many times are you going to try and rewrite your posts?
For all your claims that I've "changed the story," surely it has not escaped your attention that the end result fulfills the requirements the original, unchanged "story." Saying that I "changed the story" implies that I modified the requirements but the fact that the end result fulfills the requirements of the original "story" makes any allegations of a "changed" "story" irrelevant.
Except that you have not fulfilled the requirements of that original, unchanged story. No $10 Pi-based BBS means no fulfillment.
You sure you didn't mean bull feces? 'Cause that's all I'm seein whenever Jeff speaks up...
Perhaps that's because every one of your replies to me is full of it.
Logic fail. How do you equate my replies to your words?
I find it interesting that a participant enjoys making anot participant the issue rather than discussing the topic at h or what is relevant in the echo called POLITICS.
You do not understand. You are now his official shrink. He confided to you his worst nightmare, which apparently is me to do your job, Dr. Buzza.
How am I doing, so far? Have the nightmares gone away? Or are th beginning?
You're asking the wrong person. Lee wasn't referring to me when he sa that, but Mike.
Only name I see there is Dr. Buzza.
Or maybe you're insinuating that I'm "Mike?" Alas, I can neither conf nor deny that, either. If I were "Mike," though, I would tell you tha "Mike" hasn't been sleeping well lately. He seems to be having difficulty following along in conversations and has recently resorted typing entire sentences in all caps. If I were "Mike," of course. Whi I can neither confirm nor deny.
When you're done raving like a lunatic, maybe you could start on that $10 Pi-based BBS?
What can I say, I got my second wind. And, incidentally, fulfilled th requirements of my claim.
False. No $10 Pi-based BBS exists.
Very well! I fully agree with your revised statement. I have always maintained the opinion that it is much easier to build a BBS today th it was in the '90s or '00s.
Now that's a statement I can get behind.
You don't have to pay for a second phone line to be installed.
The hardware is WAY cheaper (but still more than $10 :) ).
I played with both Synchronet and Mystic and both were pretty darn easy
to install and configure on a Raspberry PI 3.
Very well! I fully agree with your revised statement. I have always maintained the opinion that it is much easier to build a BBS today th it was in the '90s or '00s.
Now that's a statement I can get behind.
You don't have to pay for a second phone line to be installed.
The hardware is WAY cheaper (but still more than $10 :) ).
I played with both Synchronet and Mystic and both were pretty darn easy
to install and configure on a Raspberry PI 3.
Except that you have not fulfilled the requirements of that original, unchanged story. No $10 Pi-based BBS means no fulfillment.
The original, unchanged story had no requirement that the BBS be
Pi-based. That is you "changing the story" based on something I said later, which I have admitted to have been in error.
You sure you didn't mean bull feces? 'Cause that's all I'm whenever Jeff speaks up...
Perhaps that's because every one of your replies to me is full o
Logic fail. How do you equate my replies to your words?
Think about it, man. When you reply to me, you're replying to my words. I speak, you spew. Get it now?
I find it interesting that a participant enjoys making participant the issue rather than discussing the topic or what is relevant in the echo called POLITICS.
You do not understand. You are now his official shrink confided to you his worst nightmare, which apparently to do your job, Dr. Buzza.
How am I doing, so far? Have the nightmares gone away? Or a beginning?
You're asking the wrong person. Lee wasn't referring to me when that, but Mike.
Only name I see there is Dr. Buzza.
Come on, you know better than that. What you "see there" is not the whole conversation.
When you're done raving like a lunatic, maybe you could start on that Pi-based BBS?
The $10 BBS has been completed. I'm moving on.
What can I say, I got my second wind. And, incidentally, fulfill requirements of my claim.
False. No $10 Pi-based BBS exists.
That was not a requirement.
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection is
all it takes.
Very well! I fully agree with your revised statement. I have alw maintained the opinion that it is much easier to build a BBS tod it was in the '90s or '00s.
Now that's a statement I can get behind.
You don't have to pay for a second phone line to be installed.
The hardware is WAY cheaper (but still more than $10 :) ).
It can be done for $10 or less.
Except that you have not fulfilled the requirements of that orig unchanged story. No $10 Pi-based BBS means no fulfillment.
The original, unchanged story had no requirement that the BBS be Pi-based. That is you "changing the story" based on something I said later, which I have admitted to have been in error.
Ask around. I feel certain that many would agree that you boasted that anyone could build a $10 Pi-based BBS, which you *still* haven't done.
That was not, is not, and never will have been the claim. That you keep repeating yourself does not make it so.
I'm done with this nonsense.
What can I say, I got my second wind. And, incidentally, fu requirements of my claim.
False. No $10 Pi-based BBS exists.
That was not a requirement.
A Raspberry Pi Zero W, a copy of Mystic, and an internet connection i all it takes.
Very well! I fully agree with your revised statement. I hav maintained the opinion that it is much easier to build a BB it was in the '90s or '00s.
Now that's a statement I can get behind.
You don't have to pay for a second phone line to be installed. The hardware is WAY cheaper (but still more than $10 :) ).
It can be done for $10 or less.
But not on a Pi. Or on *any* hardware that is actually owned by the
SysOp.
I ssh into my pi, but I did buy a case for it, a USB stick for a HD, and an ethernet cable. Oh, yeah, also a powered USB hub since even the Pi
2B is pretty useless without one. I did have a HDMI->VGA converter
also, and a USB keyboard/mouse splitter before the converter went bad
and I went the ssh route instead.
And, since they are not available locally, there was shipping cost.
Yes, they are not as cheap as $10.
Please note, I'm the SysOp of PiBBS. I feel like I know what I'm talking about in this instance.
I run one of my other systems on a pi.
That was not the original claim. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.
You're intentionally lying because you can't admit you're wrong. You
know it, I know it, everyone knows it.
A BBS was built and deployed "for the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero
W." You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.
Yes, it's difficult to build a BBS from a Raspberry Pi Zero W for $10 without scrounging for parts. It's also debatable whether one's existing electricity and internet service contribute to the cost of the BBS.
However, it is possible to avoid EVERY SINGLE ONE of the debatable
issues and build a FOR THE COST OF A $10 RASPBERRY PI ZERO W WITHOUT ACTUALLY USING A RASPBERRY PI ZERO W.
Jeezus, man. You're now officially an idiot. I'm out.
For the last time, that was never a requirement. The requirement was
that it be FOR THE COST OF a $10 Pi.
I'm out. You've lost this one. Better luck next time.
I ssh into my pi, but I did buy a case for it, a USB stick for a HD, an ethernet cable. Oh, yeah, also a powered USB hub since even the P 2B is pretty useless without one. I did have a HDMI->VGA converter also, and a USB keyboard/mouse splitter before the converter went bad and I went the ssh route instead.
That's a lot of crap you don't need to run a BBS on a Pi Zero W.
And, since they are not available locally, there was shipping cost.
The cost of acquiring a $10 Pi Zero W, including taxes and shipping,
would be included in "the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W." It's
listed for $10, but whatever you pay for it beyond that is part of the cost of it.
Although, given the advantages of more reliable storage and uptime, I may very well be moving it to the Cloud soon. Because it can be done for
free, which I think we can all agree is less than the cost of Raspberry
Pi Zero W.
Although, given the advantages of more reliable storage and uptime, I very well be moving it to the Cloud soon. Because it can be done for free, which I think we can all agree is less than the cost of Raspber Pi Zero W.
Please! Give Google the right to control your BBS! Then, we get to watch you melt down when Google deletes it at their discretion, since you just gave them ownership!
Please! Give Google the right to control your BBS! Then, we get to wa you melt down when Google deletes it at their discretion, since you j gave them ownership!
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Quelle surprise.
So now it is more than $10. Brian and Shaun are right.
That was established almost immediately. The rest of the fluff was Jeff trying to talk his way out of the hole he had dug.
Not "everybody/anybody," and not even everybody who is a fidonet user, can figure it out.
And that's why I'm glad to help anyone who needs it.
Actually, if Bjorn is a "sysop" and Lee is Bjorn, then Lee is a "sysop," according to the transitive property of equality.
If A=B and B=C, then A=C.
In order to prove that Lee is *not* a "sysop," you would have to prove that he is *not* Bjorn.
Yes. Continuing down the rabbit hole means you will encounter a lot of rabbit feces. :)
You sure you didn't mean bull feces? 'Cause that's all I'm seeing whenever Jeff speaks up...
Oh crap, man, it just occurred to me...
WHAT IF *YOU'RE* LEE!
That would be the perfect cover, would it not? Playing both sides in order to hide your true identity! It all makes perfect sense now!
On 17 Feb 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...
Man, I want what *he's* smoking! (@_@)
And it's legal for me to get it, too. Thank you, Trudeau!
I got it from Mike.
I got it from the dispensary on Main Street. Paid too much for it, but at
least I didn't have to hound anyone to get it.
Are you implying that I hounded Mike to get it? I did not; he shared it freely.
Have you considered the possibility that I *am* Mike?
Yes. But Mike is far more capable of making sense than you, so I discarded that possibility.
Lefties think that Orwell's "1984" is a manual.
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street and building has bee
renamed, every date has been altered. And that process is continuing day by da
and minute by minute."
Please! Give Google the right to control your BBS! Then, we get you melt down when Google deletes it at their discretion, since gave them ownership!
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Quelle surprise.
You clearly have no idea what 'out' means. Quelle surprise.
If you hang around here, you will see a lot of Jeff doing that. I call
it Jeff "doing the Twist," or "the Jeff-T Twist."
I am sure we could change the saying somehow where it involves BS and a bull habitat. Like "don't walk through the cow pasture without shoes?"
Please! Give Google the right to control your BBS! Then, we you melt down when Google deletes it at their discretion, s gave them ownership!
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Quelle surpr
You clearly have no idea what 'out' means. Quelle surprise.
This is a different topic.
Not "everybody/anybody," and not even everybody who is a fidonet us can figure it out.
And that's why I'm glad to help anyone who needs it.
They better hope they don't need a ride to a polling place because you sure won't help them there.
Actually, if Bjorn is a "sysop" and Lee is Bjorn, then Lee is a "sysop," according to the transitive property of equality.
If A=B and B=C, then A=C.
In order to prove that Lee is *not* a "sysop," you would have to prove t he is *not* Bjorn.
I believe Lee = Bjorn, which makes the math right. You and Dale do not believe that, and Bjorn claims it is not true, which makes the math
wrong.
So either they are both sysops because they are the same person, or they are not the same person and Lee is not a sysop.
Oh crap, man, it just occurred to me...
WHAT IF *YOU'RE* LEE!
That would be the perfect cover, would it not? Playing both sides in ord hide your true identity! It all makes perfect sense now!
I barely have enough time to keep up with my messages, let alone those of some alter-ego. By the traffic in here the past couple of days, you seem to have more time on your hands than most.
On 17 Feb 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...
Man, I want what *he's* smoking! (@_@)
And it's legal for me to get it, too. Thank you, Trudeau!
I got it from Mike.
I got it from the dispensary on Main Street. Paid too much for it, at
least I didn't have to hound anyone to get it.
Are you implying that I hounded Mike to get it? I did not; he shared it freely.
I don't partake. It makes me ill. It is also still illegal here.
I have none to share.
Lefties think that Orwell's "1984" is a manual.
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewri every picture has been repainted, every statue and street and building h bee
renamed, every date has been altered. And that process is continuing day da
and minute by minute."
It has been a while since I read "1984" and I only read it once (I prefer "Animal Farm") but it would seem that Orwell could predict the future of Cancel Culture and just got the year wrong.
This is a different topic.
Partly false. It certainly has nothing to do with a $10 Pi-based BBS, but that was already established. However, it is still the same topic.
I don't partake. It makes me ill. It is also still illegal here.
I have none to share.
"It" was never defined, man. Is there something you'd like to share with us?
Man, I want what *he's* smoking! (@_@)
And it's legal for me to get it, too. Thank you, Tru
This is a different topic.
Partly false. It certainly has nothing to do with a $10 Pi-based BBS, that was already established. However, it is still the same topic.
Nope, the topic is now my BBS and the advantages of a cloud-based BBS
over a the Pi-based BBS that I currently have.
The discussion about building a BBS for the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W is over, as far as I'm concerned. You seem to still want to keep
it alive, though.
Lefties think that Orwell's "1984" is a manual.
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewri every picture has been repainted, every statue and street and building h bee
renamed, every date has been altered. And that process is continuing day da
and minute by minute."
It has been a while since I read "1984" and I only read it once (I prefer "Animal Farm") but it would seem that Orwell could predict the future of Cancel Culture and just got the year wrong.
I don't partake. It makes me ill. It is also still illegal her I have none to share.
"It" was never defined, man. Is there something you'd like to share w us?
Wrong again...
Man, I want what *he's* smoking! (@_@)
And it's legal for me to get it, too. Thank you
It is astounding how often you are wrong.
Nope. Look at the subject line. Same one we've been using for the past three days.
The discussion about building a BBS for the cost of a $10 Raspberry P Zero W is over, as far as I'm concerned. You seem to still want to ke it alive, though.
Good thing your concern has nothing to do with reality, huh? The discussion about building a BBS on a Pi Zero W for only $10 is still alive. You seem to still want to kill it, though.
I see two mentions of him above that are not from quotes from me. One is Jeff trying to explain "Lee's" point, and the other is you responding that you didn't think that was "Lee's" point. Then comes me with my information.
So, if you were not discussing Lee, why were you all talking about him? :)
I find it interesting that a participant enjoys making another
participant the issue rather than discussing the topic at hand,
or what is relevant in the echo called POLITICS.
TimeYou do not understand. You are now his official shrink. He has
confided to you his worst nightmare, which apparently is me.
to do your job, Dr. Buzza.
How am I doing, so far? Have the nightmares gone away? Or are theyjust
beginning?
You're asking the wrong person. Lee wasn't referring to me when he said that,
but Mike.
Unless you're insinuating that I'm Lee, a situation which I can neither confirm nor deny.
I think we need to stiplate that in order for someone to be
running something that qualifies as "a BBS" we need to
stipulate that it is available for users.
That flies in the face of those who state that their BBS is not
available for users, and that users are obsolete anyhow.
What do you base that conclusion on? It is true that Lee posts fromthey
Bj.rn's BBS at present. But before that he posted from a BBS in
Australia. You only have to look at their postings to realize that
are not the same person.
I will admit that what Lee says can be safely ignored 50% of the time,
but at other times he makes real sense.
As the rules of this echo state: PUSU.
Bjorn recently accidentally posted a message, as if from himself butin
with Lee's name in the from field, in a FIDO sysop-only echo. It was
response to me pointing out that "Lee" once netmailed me about thingsrespond
that would only be relevant if he were a sysop, which Bjorn is and
"Lee" is not and, once I pointed that out to "Lee," he did not
back.
I recall seeing those messages from Lee, and just went back to review them. It has been clear for some time that Lee has at least read access to FIDO_SYSOP since he often posts quotes from there into the FIDONEWS echo. I was not surprised that he also had write access.
In fact, I seem to recall that he got booted from the Australian board because he had sysop only access and uncloaked himself.
The particular messages in FIDO_SYSOP seem to me to be a bit more well composed that a typical Lee message, but there are other clues. For example, at least the messages with Lee in the FROM that I scanned had typical Lee tag lines, whereas the messages from Bj”rn did not have tag lines.
Bjorn tried to backtrack the sysop-only echo post by saying he
believes in free speech and that non-sysop Lee therefore has access.
I've seen that statement before -- and Bj”rn is not the only one who believes that.
Wrong again...
Man, I want what *he's* smoking! (@_@)
And it's legal for me to get it, too. Than
It is astounding how often you are wrong.
We all know what you're smoking. I never identified what I have. My favorite smoke comes from the tobbaconist's shop, and my favorite varieties are "Amaretto" and "Black Cauldron." A few times a year, but especially in the winter, I enjoy sitting on the back porch, lighting
up, and enjoying a nice, relaxing smoke with a glass of whiskey.
If you haven't noticed, topic changes are not necessarily related to subject lines. For example, the discussion you're referring to, and
which has since concluded, was not related to "New to POLITICS" at all.
We all know what you're smoking. I never identified what I have. My favorite smoke comes from the tobbaconist's shop, and my favorite varieties are "Amaretto" and "Black Cauldron." A few times a year, bu especially in the winter, I enjoy sitting on the back porch, lighting up, and enjoying a nice, relaxing smoke with a glass of whiskey.
Whatever, man. If you don't identify a different thing, then you are implying that you're talking about the same thing. Stop using child-like logic.
The discussion about building a BBS for the cost of a $10 Raspbe Zero W is over, as far as I'm concerned. You seem to still want it alive, though.
Good thing your concern has nothing to do with reality, huh? The discussion about building a BBS on a Pi Zero W for only $10 is still alive. You seem to still want to kill it, though.
I have no interest in continuing it, and the moderator has explicitly requested that it no longer be discussed in this echo.
But by all means, go on tilting at windmills if you wish.
BECAUSE JEFF IS JUST AN ANNOYING TROLL.BECAUSE JEFF IS JUST AN ANNOYING TROLL.
Stop assuming things that aren't said.
Man, I want what *he's* smoking! (@_@)
And it's legal for me to get it, too. Thank you, Trudeau!
Whatever, man. If you don't identify a different thing, then you are implying that you're talking about the same thing. Stop using child-l logic.
If you haven't noticed, topic changes are not necessarily related to subject lines. For example, the discussion you're referring to, and which has since concluded, was not related to "New to POLITICS" at al
The discussion you keep trying to say is concluded, only because you refuse to take part in it, is still open, until you can produce a $10 Pi-based BBS.
Weird how you've found new respect for that moderator's wishes all of a sudden, now that it suits your needs.
Stop assuming things that aren't said.
Man, I want what *he's* smoking! (@_@)
And it's legal for me to get it, too. Thank you, Trudeau!
Whatever, man. If you don't identify a different thing, then you implying that you're talking about the same thing. Stop using ch logic.
There was no assumption. There was logical implication. Stop arguing with people just for argument's sake. When you're wrong, have the stones to admit it. Oh, right; you're incapable of that...
The discussion you keep trying to say is concluded, only because you refuse to take part in it, is still open, until you can produce a $10 Pi-based BBS.
[ugly as sin ASCII art]
Weird how you've found new respect for that moderator's wishes all of sudden, now that it suits your needs.
You'd probably best take that up with the moderator.
Stop assuming things that weren't said.
There was no assumption. There was logical implication. Stop arguing people just for argument's sake. When you're wrong, have the stones t admit it. Oh, right; you're incapable of that...
Oh crap, man, it just occurred to me...
WHAT IF *YOU'RE* LEE!
in ordThat would be the perfect cover, would it not? Playing both sides
hide your true identity! It all makes perfect sense now!
I barely have enough time to keep up with my messages, let alonethose of
some alter-ego. By the traffic in here the past couple of days, youseem
to have more time on your hands than most.
Hmm, and Lee's been rather scarce of late, has he not? Interesting...
On 18 Feb 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
Lefties think that Orwell's "1984" is a manual.rewri
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been
every picture has been repainted, every statue and street and buildingh
beeday
renamed, every date has been altered. And that process is continuing
da
and minute by minute."
It has been a while since I read "1984" and I only read it once (I
prefer "Animal Farm") but it would seem that Orwell could predict the
future of Cancel Culture and just got the year wrong.
What year was that? Was it by any chance 2003, the year that the Dixie Chicks got "cancelled" by conservatives for dissing GWB?
They better hope they don't need a ride to a polling place because you
sure won't help them there.
I might help them with that, but I'm not obligated to do so. No one is obligated to do so. Their ability to exercise their right to vote would depend entirely on the charity of others. At that point it's not a right, but a privilege.
They better hope they don't need a ride to a polling place because y
sure won't help them there.
I might help them with that, but I'm not obligated to do so. No one i obligated to do so. Their ability to exercise their right to vote wou depend entirely on the charity of others. At that point it's not a ri but a privilege.
The flaw in your statement is that poll workers are volunteers, who do
so by their own choice.
By your statement, since your ability to vote depends on the charity of those willing to volunteer their time, then you don't have a right to vote.
Is this really the argument you want to try to make?
We all know what you're smoking. I never identified what I have. My favorite smoke comes from the tobbaconist's shop, and my favorite varieties are "Amaretto" and "Black Cauldron." A few times a year, bu especially in the winter, I enjoy sitting on the back porch, lighting up, and enjoying a nice, relaxing smoke with a glass of whiskey.
Whatever, man. If you don't identify a different thing, then you are implying that you're talking about the same thing. Stop using child-like logic.
Weird how you've found new respect for that moderator's wishes all of a
sudden, now that it suits your needs.
You'd probably best take that up with the moderator.
Whatever, man. If you don't identify a different thing, then you are implying that you're talking about the same thing. Stop using child-l logic.
Speaking of which, it's supposed to get down to 31F here tonight. Perfect night for a smoke. Thanks for the reminder!
On 17 Feb 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
I ssh into my pi, but I did buy a case for it, a USB stick for a HD, and an ethernet cable. Oh, yeah, also a powered USB hub since even the Pi 2B is pretty useless without one. I did have a HDMI->VGA converter also, and a USB keyboard/mouse splitter before the converter went bad and I went the ssh route instead.
That's a lot of crap you don't need to run a BBS on a Pi Zero W.
And, since they are not available locally, there was shipping cost.
The cost of acquiring a $10 Pi Zero W, including taxes and shipping, would
be included in "the cost of a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W." It's listed for $10, but whatever you pay for it beyond that is part of the cost of it.
This is why I just
spent the last three days treating him the way he treats everyone else.
I am sure we could change the saying somehow where it involves BS and a bull habitat. Like "don't walk through the cow pasture without shoes?"
Not bad...how about this one: "He who walks behind a bull should never be barefoot"?
However, Lee would have had every right to post in a "sysop-only" echo, if he were Bjorn.
So either they are both sysops because they are the same person, or they are not the same person and Lee is not a sysop.
True, but which is it?
I barely have enough time to keep up with my messages, let alone those of
some alter-ego. By the traffic in here the past couple of days, you seem
to have more time on your hands than most.
Hmm, and Lee's been rather scarce of late, has he not? Interesting...
On 17 Feb 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...
Man, I want what *he's* smoking! (@_@)
And it's legal for me to get it, too. Thank you, Trudeau
I got it from Mike.
I got it from the dispensary on Main Street. Paid too much for it,
at
least I didn't have to hound anyone to get it.
Are you implying that I hounded Mike to get it? I did not; he shared it
freely.
I don't partake. It makes me ill. It is also still illegal here.
I have none to share.
"It" was never defined, man. Is there something you'd like to share with us?
I don't partake. It makes me ill. It is also still illegal here. I have none to share.
"It" was never defined, man. Is there something you'd like to share with us?
Wrong again...
Man, I want what *he's* smoking! (@_@)
And it's legal for me to get it, too. Thank you, Tr
It is astounding how often you are wrong.
I have no interest in continuing it, and the moderator has explicitly requested that it no longer be discussed in this echo.
\ _|_ /
##. , ,## _ _- ,' `. -
`##/ \##' (_ ' )) _ |--
/#O#\ ((_ _(_,_`_)__.' -
,##'_`##. / | \
##|. . .|## ,
------| _ |------ //
__--|_|_|_|---_ _/_\_ //
---' __ (_|"\_( //
_/__\_ |-|_ // =,^^.
(_||"\_) /\\ //|XX|/ =/ - \\
,\-/ ,\//. \-|XX| =/ \__ \
|\-/J-/ ~ \\---(_\/-=/ |
.-.-(==|-/ \_ \ `-\\-' |
/// \_| / `-' /_ //_\ / /
|/( /_(__)/ /\|/\ / (__) ||||
|\\ |||| \\\\ ||||
----[_[_]---[_[_]--[_[_]------[_]_]--mgc--
It was required reading in 8th grade for us. We had to read Animal Farm too, t I don't remember what grade that was.
This is why I just
spent the last three days treating him the way he treats everyone else.
As you can see, he does not like that one bit! :D
I have no interest in continuing it, and the moderator has explicitly requested that it no longer be discussed in this echo.
Suggested. If the goal it to help a new sysop set up a system on the cheap, it would probably get a bigger audience in a more on-topic echo.
I intentionally did not request, in part, because someone might then ask what rules it was violating, and I don't believe this discussion is violating any of them.
However, Lee would have had every right to post in a "sysop-only" echo, were Bjorn.
Since they won't admit to being one in the same, he does not.
I barely have enough time to keep up with my messages, let alone th of
some alter-ego. By the traffic in here the past couple of days, yo seem
to have more time on your hands than most.
Hmm, and Lee's been rather scarce of late, has he not? Interesting...
He has been quoted a lot lately.
\ _|_ /
##. , ,## _ _- ,' `. -
`##/ \##' (_ ' )) _ |--
/#O#\ ((_ _(_,_`_)__.' -
,##'_`##. / | \
##|. . .|## ,
------| _ |------ //
__--|__|_---_ _/_\_ //
---' __ (_|"\_( //
_/__\_ |-_ // =,^^.
(_||"\_) /\\ //|XX|/ =/ - \\
,\-/ ,\//. \-|XX| =/ \__ \
|\-/J-/ ~ \\---(_\/-=/ |
.-.-(==|-/ \_ \ `-\\-' |
/// \_| / `-' /_ //_\ / /
|/( /_(__)/ /\|/\ / (__) ||||
|\\ |||| \\\\ |||| ----[_[_]---[_[_]--[_[_]------[_]_]--mgc--
That is pretty cool. I read that story in... well, it was not long
before COVID messed up my time line. :) Spring, 2019, I think!
This is why I just
spent the last three days treating him the way he treats everyone e
As you can see, he does not like that one bit! :D
That was the point. (^_^)
This is why I just
spent the last three days treating him the way he treats every
As you can see, he does not like that one bit! :D
That was the point. (^_^)
At no point have I taken a discussion here and used it to harass someone in another echo, let alone in another echo on another net. You have, though.
That's because I know how to finish what I start. Any news on that $10 Pi-based BBS?
At no point have I taken a discussion here and used it to harass some in another echo, let alone in another echo on another net. You have, though.
That's because I know how to finish what I start. Any news on that $10 Pi-based BBS?
You made an @$$ of yourself and were asked to discontinue the discussion.
Any news on that $10 Pi-based BBS?
You made an @$$ of yourself and were asked to discontinue the discuss
Incorrect. *WE* we asked to discontinue. And the only @$$ around is the one in your bathroom mirror. Go look, if you don't believe me.
Any news on that $10 Pi-based BBS?
Any news on that Ontario enhanced vaccine certificate that isn't free because it requires a cell phone, except that no cell phone is actually required?
You made an @$$ of yourself and were asked to discontinue the di
Incorrect. *WE* we asked to discontinue. And the only @$$ around is t one in your bathroom mirror. Go look, if you don't believe me.
I'm not the one who took things there, and I made that very clear.
Hello Jeff,
Weird how you've found new respect for that moderator's wishes all o
sudden, now that it suits your needs.
You'd probably best take that up with the moderator.
What moderator?
Kind of an anachronism, since there cannot be any moderators
in Fidonet, by definition. Participants participate, no screening
or pre-screening needed.
I am sure we could change the saying somehow where it involves BS and a
bull habitat. Like "don't walk through the cow pasture without shoes?"
Not bad...how about this one: "He who walks behind a bull should never be barefoot"?
They better hope they don't need a ride to a polling place because you
sure won't help them there.
I might help them with that, but I'm not obligated to do so. No one isright,
obligated to do so. Their ability to exercise their right to vote would
depend entirely on the charity of others. At that point it's not a
but a privilege.
The flaw in your statement is that poll workers are volunteers, who do so by
their own choice.
By your statement, since your ability to vote depends on the charity of those willing to volunteer their time, then you don't have a right to vote.
Is this really the argument you want to try to make?
We'll see. I have asked Mike to moderate Shaun's boorish behavior, which goes far beyond anything I or anyone else has done in my time here.
If he refuses to moderate, then the title of "moderator" is forfeit and you are correct.
I am sure we could change the saying somehow where it involves BS an
bull habitat. Like "don't walk through the cow pasture without shoe
Friend of mine did that. Humped a cow. And missed the school bus.
His mother had to then take him to school. We greeted him when he
arrived by calling him "Moo."
Not bad...how about this one: "He who walks behind a bull should neve barefoot"?
You have never been to Spain for the running of the bulls.
The first thing you do is step into the middle of the street.
The next thing you do is wait for the bulls to come to you.
And then you start running like hell, hoping not to get gored.
Some succeed, others do not. And the crowd cheers ...
BECAUSE JEFF IS JUST AN ANNOYING TROLL.BECAUSE JEFF IS JUST AN ANNOYING TROLL.
Either you believe in free speech, or you do not. Can't have it both
ways.
By your statement, since your ability to vote depends on the charity of
those willing to volunteer their time, then you don't have a right to
vote.
There are organizations that hire drivers to take folks to the polls. As you know, every eligible voter does have a right to vote. Making it difficult for some people to be able to get to a polling booth is a means
Online voting, with all eligible voters being given free iPhones, and unlimited minutes, would be the perfect solution.
all oWeird how you've found new respect for that moderator's wishes
sudden, now that it suits your needs.
You'd probably best take that up with the moderator.
What moderator?
Kind of an anachronism, since there cannot be any moderators
in Fidonet, by definition. Participants participate, no screening
or pre-screening needed.
We'll see. I have asked Mike to moderate Shaun's boorish behavior, which goes
far beyond anything I or anyone else has done in my time here.
If he refuses to moderate, then the title of "moderator" is forfeit and you
are correct.
BS anI am sure we could change the saying somehow where it involves
shoebull habitat. Like "don't walk through the cow pasture without
Friend of mine did that. Humped a cow. And missed the school bus.
His mother had to then take him to school. We greeted him when he
arrived by calling him "Moo."
Hahaha! Kids do the darnedest things, don't they? (^_^)
neveNot bad...how about this one: "He who walks behind a bull should
barefoot"?
You have never been to Spain for the running of the bulls.
The first thing you do is step into the middle of the street.
The next thing you do is wait for the bulls to come to you.
And then you start running like hell, hoping not to get gored.
Some succeed, others do not. And the crowd cheers ...
That's correct. I've never been to Spain for...well...anything...
The bull run just seems stupid to me.
I mean, one would have to be suicidal or something to enter.
Then again, I've seen people do some really stupid things, right here!
We'll see. I have asked Mike to moderate Shaun's boorish behavior,which
goes far beyond anything I or anyone else has done in my time here.
If he refuses to moderate, then the title of "moderator" is forfeitand
you are correct.
Typical. If you can't beat 'em, run to the moderator.
alone thI barely have enough time to keep up with my messages, let
days, yoof
some alter-ego. By the traffic in here the past couple of
seem
to have more time on your hands than most.
Interesting...Hmm, and Lee's been rather scarce of late, has he not?
He has been quoted a lot lately.
Indeed he has, but that's an act of others, not of Lee. Unless the quoters *are* Lee!
echo,However, Lee would have had every right to post in a "sysop-only"
were Bjorn.
Since they won't admit to being one in the same, he does not.
Is admission required, though? Admission or lack of admission does not change reality. Either they are or aren't the same person.
It was required reading in 8th grade for us. We had to read Animal Farm
too,
t I don't remember what grade that was.
We had to read Animal Farm. I chose to read 1984 as one of my "student's choice" reading units. I prefer Animal Farm, maybe because it was related more to things that had happened vs. a potential future I found very depressing.
those ofI barely have enough time to keep up with my messages, let alone
you seemsome alter-ego. By the traffic in here the past couple of days,
to have more time on your hands than most.
Hmm, and Lee's been rather scarce of late, has he not? Interesting...
He has been quoted a lot lately.
That is pretty cool. I read that story in... well, it was not long before COVID messed up my time line. :) Spring, 2019, I think!
Thanks! I "borrowed" it, of course, but was sure to keep the artist's signature present. I have no idea why the lance got messed up like that; it looked fine before I sent it.
However, Lee would have had every right to post in a "sysop-only" echo,
were Bjorn.
Since they won't admit to being one in the same, he does not.
Is admission required, though? Admission or lack of admission does not change reality. Either they are or aren't the same person.
On 19 Feb 2022, Shaun Buzza said the following...
This is why I just
spent the last three days treating him the way he treats everyone
As you can see, he does not like that one bit! :D
That was the point. (^_^)
At no point have I taken a discussion here and used it to harass someone in another echo, let alone in another echo on another net. You have, though.
[...]By your statement, since your ability to vote depends on the charity
those willing to volunteer their time, then you don't have a right t
vote.
I agree. Bus service is free on that day to the polls, plus the dozens
of organizations that provide free rides to the polls. But Jeff's claim was that since it depended on the charity of others to get there, it wasn't a "right."
Who do you say I am?
Shaun Buzza wrote to Dr. What <=-
Yes, both were very easy for me to install as well, though I eventually decided to go with Mystic.
Shaun Buzza wrote to Jeff Thiele <=-
You're intentionally trying to smear be because you can't admit I'm
right. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.
That's the fourth time you've said that 'you're out'. Only an idiot
would repeat the same lie. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.
Mike Powell wrote to JEFF THIELE <=-
Actually, if Bjorn is a "sysop" and Lee is Bjorn, then Lee is a "sysop," according to the transitive property of equality.
If A=B and B=C, then A=C.
In order to prove that Lee is *not* a "sysop," you would have to prove that he is *not* Bjorn.
I believe Lee = Bjorn, which makes the math right. You and Dale do not believe that, and Bjorn claims it is not true, which makes the math
wrong.
So either they are both sysops because they are the same person, or
they are not the same person and Lee is not a sysop.
Al Thompson wrote to Jeff Thiele <=-
It was required reading in 8th grade for us. We had to read Animal
Farm too, but I don't remember what grade that was.
Mike Powell wrote to JEFF THIELE <=-
You said for $10. The "cost beyond" comes out of the $10.
Al Thompson wrote to Shaun Buzza <=-
BECAUSE JEFF IS JUST AN ANNOYING TROLL.BECAUSE JEFF IS JUST AN ANNOYING TROLL.
I've come to the same conclusion. Nobody can write so many meaningless messages while being so purposefully obtuse.
I believe them to be the same person. If I was moderating the echo in question (it is moderatorless currently), I would request that he no longer be allowed to post.
And as we are moving into the topic of network politics, I think this thread has run it course as acceptable topic material here.
At no point have I taken a discussion here and used it to harass someone another echo, let alone in another echo on another net. You have, though
I did ask it be moved elsewhere. I should have been more specific that
it should probably stay on FIDO. Many othernets have rules about moving discussions from outside networks (especially FIDO) onto theirs, so I don't want my suggestion causing trouble.
And as we are moving into the topic of network politics, I think this thread has run it course as acceptable topic material here.
Either you believe in free speech, or you do not. Can't have it both
ways.
Free speech doesn't mean that every user of a BBS has access to every echo.
I think you are confused about the concept.
ofBy your statement, since your ability to vote depends on the charity
tothose willing to volunteer their time, then you don't have a right
vote.
There are organizations that hire drivers to take folks to the polls.As
you know, every eligible voter does have a right to vote. Making itmeans
difficult for some people to be able to get to a polling booth is a
I agree. Bus service is free on that day to the polls, plus the dozens of organizations that provide free rides to the polls. But Jeff's claim was that since it depended on the charity of others to get there, it wasn't a "right."
Online voting, with all eligible voters being given free iPhones, and
unlimited minutes, would be the perfect solution.
I'm not too sure that would be a welcome development for the elderly, some of whom are defeated by a TV remote.
I don't blame you. Shaun was explicitly looking for trouble.
I believe them to be the same person.
If I was moderating the echo in question (it is moderatorless
currently),
I would request that he no longer be allowed to post.
And as we are moving into the topic of network politics, MP>I think thisthread has run it course as acceptable topic MP>material here.
Sure thing. However, I think it veered into network politics as soon as Lee's post(s) to a "sysop"-only echo were brought up.
Since they won't admit to being one in the same, he does not.
Is admission required, though? Admission or lack of admission does not
change
reality. Either they are or aren't the same person.
I believe them to be the same person.
If I was moderating the echo in question (it is moderatorless currently), I
would request that he no longer be allowed to post.
And as we are moving into the topic of network politics, I think this thread has run it course as acceptable topic material here.
Who do you say I am?
I have no reason to accuse you of being anyone other than Lee, any accusations to the contrary notwithstanding.
Friend of mine did that. Humped a cow. And missed the school bus. His mother had to then take him to school. We greeted him when he arrived by calling him "Moo."
I have no reason to accuse you of being anyone other than Lee, any accusations to the contrary notwithstanding.
Jesus! Took me ages to find a friend other than Peter!
Friend of mine did that. Humped a cow. And missed the school bus. His mother had to then take him to school. We greeted him when he arrived calling him "Moo."
You have a friend that rapes animals? Ewwwwww.
I'm pretty sure that we can write a Prolog program to prove that.
Anyone got an old PC and working copy of Borland's Turbo Prolog?
I'm pretty sure that we can write a Prolog program to prove that.
Anyone got an old PC and working copy of Borland's Turbo Prolog?
Now THERE'S a language the faded from the scene!
Remember the "Build Back Better bill won't cost anything" math?
On 20 Feb 2022, Mike Powell said the following...
I believe them to be the same person. If I was moderating the echo in question (it is moderatorless currently), I would request that he no longer be allowed to post.
And as we are moving into the topic of network politics, I think this thread has run it course as acceptable topic material here.
Sure thing. However, I think it veered into network politics as soon as Lee's post(s) to a "sysop"-only echo were brought up.
Also, I believe that the discussion of available transportation was originally concerned with acquiring ID sufficient to vote under the new laws, rather than transportation to the polls.
And as we are moving into the topic of network politics, I think this thread has run it course as acceptable topic material here.
Roger that. (o_o)7
And as we are moving into the topic of network politics, I think th thread has run it course as acceptable topic material here.
Sure thing. However, I think it veered into network politics as soon as post(s) to a "sysop"-only echo were brought up.
Yes, which is why I am going to stop talking about it here. :)
Hello Al,
I'm pretty sure that we can write a Prolog program to prove that.
Anyone got an old PC and working copy of Borland's Turbo Prolog?
Now THERE'S a language the faded from the scene!
No program can prove I am real.
The same goes for anybody else. Both real and imagined.
We are who we think we are. And we may, or may not be, who others think
we are.
Imaginary lovers
Never turn you down
When all the others turn you away
They're around
It's my private pleasure
Midnight fantasy
Someone to share my
Wildest dreams with me
Imaginary lover you're mine anytime
Imaginary lovers, oh yeah
When ordinary lovers
Don't feel what you feel
And real-life situations lose their thrill Imagination's unreal
Imaginary lover, imaginary lover
You're mine anytime
Imaginary lovers never disagree
They always care
They're always there when
You need satisfaction guaranteed
Imaginary lover, imaginary lover
You're mine all the time
My imaginary lover
You're mine anytime
--Lee
I'm pretty sure that we can write a Prolog program to prove that.
Anyone got an old PC and working copy of Borland's Turbo Prolog?
Now THERE'S a language the faded from the scene!
No program can prove I am real.
The same goes for anybody else. Both real and imagined.
We are who we think we are. And we may, or may not be, who othersthink
we are.
Imaginary lovers
Never turn you down
When all the others turn you away
They're around
It's my private pleasure
Midnight fantasy
Someone to share my
Wildest dreams with me
Imaginary lover you're mine anytime
Imaginary lovers, oh yeah
When ordinary lovers
Don't feel what you feel
And real-life situations lose their thrill Imagination's unreal
Imaginary lover, imaginary lover
You're mine anytime
Imaginary lovers never disagree
They always care
They're always there when
You need satisfaction guaranteed
Imaginary lover, imaginary lover
You're mine all the time
My imaginary lover
You're mine anytime
--Lee
I quoted the entire message you are responding to, along with all of your response, because I honestly have no idea what you are prattling on about.
I merely commented that I hadn't heard anyone mention Turbo Prolog for years, and you respond with logic puzzles and song lyrics.
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