Source (including the message subject!): MSNBC

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/fall-afghanistan-2021-result-years-american-delus ion-n1276883

rCLAs recently as July, President Joe Biden insisted that it was "not inevitable" that the Taliban would retake control of the country. "The likelihood that there's going to be a Taliban overrunning everything and owning the whole country is highly unlikely," Biden reassured the public. By the middle of last week, intelligence officials who had thought it would take the Taliban a year to complete their reconquest of the country revised their estimates. Kabul would be cut off in the next 30 days, they warned. The city and the U.S.-backed government would fall to the Taliban before the year's end.

rCLBut even that was deliriously optimistic. Collapse came not in weeks but over the course of a single weekend. Kabul was all but surrounded not in 30 days but in 72 hours after these revised estimates were made public.rCY

So, Joe was telling us a Taliban takeover was "highly unlikely" while the administration's intelligence officials thought it would happen but not for a year?

rCLThe Biden White House's belief in a Taliban that existed only in their own minds was so total that one of the administration's last, desperate gambits was to beg the insurgency for mercy. The New York Times reported as recently as Thursday that the U.S. envoy in Doha had a new objective: to seek assurances from the Taliban that they would leave America's embassy in peace. The administration was even reported to have dangled "financial aid and other assistance" to the "future Afghan government," a euphemism for a Taliban-run enterprise.rCY

So we offered to give the Taliban money not to hurt us while we withdrew? What kind of exit strategy is that? I wonder if Joe believes that this make-believe Taliban of his will actually keep their promise to allow anyone to leave that wants to, especially since there are already reports of US-friendly citizens that didn't manage to make it to the airport being arrested and/or executed?

I just watched Biden's address on MSNBC. Afterwards, the talking heads wondered if the commitment to get all of the Afghans who helped us out of Kabul would even be upheld. I am guessing we will get ehough of them out so that the administration can claim "we got them out."

So, between how this administration has handled the border and how they've handled the Afghan pullout, we now have not one but two humanitarian crises to worry about.

#
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On 16 Aug 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

rCLAs recently as July, President Joe Biden insisted that it was "not inevitable" that the Taliban would retake control of the country. "The likelihood that there's going to be a Taliban overrunning everything and owning the whole country is highly unlikely," Biden reassured the
public. By the middle of last week, intelligence officials who had
thought it would take the Taliban a year to complete their reconquest of the country revised their estimates. Kabul would be cut off in the next
30 days, they warned. The city and the U.S.-backed government would fall to the Taliban before the year's end.

But, but, but...

Didn't Trump sign "a historic peace agreement with the Taliban, which would
end America's longest war?"

Of course, you wouldn't know that from looking at the RNC website, because
they removed the whole page yesterday. It used to be here: https://web.archive.org/web/20210401134232/https://gop.com/president-trump-is-b ringing-peace-to-the-middle-east-rsr/

Thanks to the Wayback Machine, though, you can still see the page here: https://web.archive.org/web/20210401134232/https://gop.com/president-trump-is-b ringing-peace-to-the-middle-east-rsr/

Why do you suppose they'd have done that?

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

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rCLAs recently as July, President Joe Biden insisted that it was "not inevitable" that the Taliban would retake control of the country. "The likelihood that there's going to be a Taliban overrunning everything and owning the whole country is highly unlikely," Biden reassured the public. By the middle of last week, intelligence officials who had thought it would take the Taliban a year to complete their reconquest of the country revised their estimates. Kabul would be cut off in the next 30 days, they warned. The city and the U.S.-backed government would fall to the Taliban before the year's end.

But, but, but...

Didn't Trump sign "a historic peace agreement with the Taliban, which would end America's longest war?"

But, but, but, Trump is no longer President, and it is not Trump who might
very well have acted against the advice of his military advisers in regards
to how the final withdrawl should be planned.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/politics/biden-afghanistan-blame-shifting

One of the big selling points on Biden was that he was supposed to be
better at all of this foreign relations stuff than Trump. If Trump's plan for the final withdrawl (if there was one) was wrong, it should not have been followed by Biden's administration. Biden's years more of experience with foreign relations and national defense should have told him that.

He was also supposed to be better at communicating with the people than Trump. He returned to the White House to give a 20 minute speach, where he blamed everyone else but never really took responsibility for how it was handled,
then went back on vacation.

Oh, wait, he did say "the buck stops here," but in the context of his whole speech, that came out like "it is the fault of others, but I will be the
one to clean it up." Even CNN noted that he completely failed to address
the chaos "unfolding on his watch."


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On 17 Aug 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

But, but, but...
Didn't Trump sign "a historic peace agreement with the Taliban, which wo end America's longest war?"

But, but, but, Trump is no longer President, and it is not Trump who
might very well have acted against the advice of his military advisers
in regards to how the final withdrawl should be planned.

Thank God he's no longer president. But it was Trump who negotiated with the Taliban to release their leadership from prison and hand Afghanistan over to them. He wanted to seal this deal at Camp David and have the Taliban
leadership in the White House on 9/11, but that didn't work out.

One of the big selling points on Biden was that he was supposed to be better at all of this foreign relations stuff than Trump. If Trump's
plan for the final withdrawl (if there was one) was wrong, it should not have been followed by Biden's administration. Biden's years more of experience with foreign relations and national defense should have told him that.

Trump left no withdrawal plan. What would you have done differently, in hindsight? Was there not some point at which the band-aid would have to be ripped off?

He was also supposed to be better at communicating with the people than Trump. He returned to the White House to give a 20 minute speach, where
he blamed everyone else but never really took responsibility for how it was handled, then went back on vacation.

Biden took full responsibility for it. He said, "the buck stops with me."
That doesn't mean that Trump didn't leave him in a tough position.

Oh, wait, he did say "the buck stops here," but in the context of his whole speech, that came out like "it is the fault of others, but I will
be the one to clean it up." Even CNN noted that he completely failed to address the chaos "unfolding on his watch."

He said it. What you chose to hear was on you.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

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Quoting Mike Powell to Jeff Thiele <=-

One of the big selling points on Biden was that he was supposed to be better at all of this foreign relations stuff than Trump.

Which, if correct, would have meant that Biden would have been better at foreign relations than ALL Democrat presidents in recent memory -
combined.

The Democrat track record on foreign relations is really bad.

Biden's years more
of experience with foreign relations and national defense should have
told him that.

I had a good laugh over that statement. 8)


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Trump left no withdrawal plan. What would you have done differently, in hindsight? Was there not some point at which the band-aid would have to be ripped off?

Trump shouldn't have needed to. If Biden is the foreign policy wizard that everone claimed he was prior to the election, and listened to the miltary
and intelligence communities, he'd have come up with a better plan than
"hope the Taliban doesn't take over too soon."

A better plan? Listen to the military and intelligence community and be
ready for the worst-case scenario, *ESPECIALLY* since I just finished
promising that we'd not have another Saigon. Remove US civilians first, then Afghans who helps us, then equipment and finally the military. Instead, everyone/thing in those first three groups are on their own for the moment as whoever is left of the military is stuck at the airport, and whoever is
outside the airport cannot get in without passing through a Taliban
checkpoint.

At last count, those stuck outside could include some ~15,000 US civilians
and, as of yesterday, the administration had no plan on how to get them out safely.

To reference a post from yesterday:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/politics/biden-afghanistan-blame-shifting

"Factions within the Biden administration are embroiled in a blame game over why the US government didn't act sooner to withdraw American citizens and Afghans who helped the US over two decades of war, leading to a rushed and dangerous evacuation.

"Military officials have said that for weeks they urged the State Department to move faster in evacuating its diplomatic personnel. State Department officials have said they were operating based on intelligence assessments that suggested they had more time, but intelligence officials insist that they had long reported the possibility of a rapid Taliban takeover.

"An intelligence assessment produced within the last month assessed that the Taliban were pursuing a total military victory in Afghanistan, a source familiar with the intelligence said, despite ostensibly negotiating for peace in Doha and even as the administration continued to express confidence in those talks."

"The scenes (in Kabul) evoked images from Saigon in 1975, a comparison the (Biden) administration promised would not happen."

"Some officials insist that Biden got bad advice from some of his top military and intelligence advisers. [...] Military officials, in turn, have said they were actually prepared for the worst and had been urging the State Department for weeks to begin withdrawing embassy employees in Kabul. [,,,] The officials said they had warned the State Department that a last-minute emergency evacuation -- if needed -- would be more difficult the more staffers remained."

"A State Department official acknowledged there had been real friction with the Pentagon in recent weeks as the department resisted the military's advice to close the US Embassy in Kabul sooner."

" [...] Two other US diplomats who served in Afghanistan said the chaos
could have been averted, or at least mitigated, if action had been taken sooner to get people out. "

Meanwhile, the Taliban has inherited a bunch of military equipment, some from the Afghans and some ours, and no telling what sensitive information that didn't get destroyed before the embassy personnel had to high-tail it out
of there. Biden said in his speech that the Taliban has no air force, but
they have the equipment for it now, and the trained Afghan pilots who can
fly the planes.


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Quoting Mike Powell to Jeff Thiele <=-

One of the big selling points on Biden was that he was supposed to be better at all of this foreign relations stuff than Trump.

Which, if correct, would have meant that Biden would have been better at foreign relations than ALL Democrat presidents in recent memory -
combined.

During his speech, Biden also took a swipe at Obama without naming him
(HINT: Trump was not yet in charge "5 years" ago).

The Democrat track record on foreign relations is really bad.

It is not great, well, unless you count paying foreign countries so they
can have a nuclear program while not doing those things with it that we
nicely asked them not to, or assisting to destablize a Central American
country so that it turns into a place that its citizens want to flee, or continuing to help the country that is probably our biggest threat to grow their economy by making it more difficult for the jobs going there to
continue to exist here, or falling back to depending on foreign governments
and organizations for our oil supply... I could go on but I think you get
the picture.

Biden's years more
of experience with foreign relations and national defense should have told him that.

I had a good laugh over that statement. 8)

I thought it was a little funny when I wrote it.


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On 18 Aug 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Trump left no withdrawal plan. What would you have done differently, in hindsight? Was there not some point at which the band-aid would have to ripped off?

Trump shouldn't have needed to. If Biden is the foreign policy wizard that everone claimed he was prior to the election, and listened to the miltary and intelligence communities, he'd have come up with a better
plan than "hope the Taliban doesn't take over too soon."

This wasn't a foreign policy failure. It was the failure of the Afghan
security forces we've spent 20 years funding and training to even attempt to defend their government.

A better plan? Listen to the military and intelligence community and be ready for the worst-case scenario, *ESPECIALLY* since I just finished promising that we'd not have another Saigon. Remove US civilians first, then Afghans who helps us, then equipment and finally the military. Instead, everyone/thing in those first three groups are on their own for the moment as whoever is left of the military is stuck at the airport,
and whoever is outside the airport cannot get in without passing through
a Taliban checkpoint.

The military and intelligence community, for whatever reason, did not anticipate the Afghan security forces capitulating without a fight. The
Taliban agreed to not attack US and NATO forces, and as far as I know they
have continued to abide by that agreement. And why wouldn't they? They want
the US out of Afghanistan. If the US leaves Afghanistan, not only is the US
out of Afghanistan, but the Taliban get to claim victory after the US leaves. If the Taliban violates the agreement, they get neither of those.

At last count, those stuck outside could include some ~15,000 US
civilians and, as of yesterday, the administration had no plan on how to get them out safely.

We'll have to see how that goes. The Taliban have every reason to let them
get out safely.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

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The Democrat track record on foreign relations is really bad.

If your talking Afghanistan, then that is another republican mess.

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The military and intelligence community, for whatever reason, did not anticipate the Afghan security forces capitulating without a fight.

But some in those communities did anticipate that the Taliban could take control and that US diplomats, citizens, and Afghan helpers needed to start getting out a lot sooner than the administration was planning. They've told CNN, the AP, and the WaPo as much. For some reason, Biden's State Department (and Biden) only wanted to listen to the advisers who gave them good news... "the Taliban won't take over," "we can withdrawl safely and without
rushing," "they are starting to take over parts of the country, but we
still have plenty of time," "you'll be able to give a triumphant speech on
the 20th anniversary of 9/11," etc.

Sounds like this President is as good at listening to his people as the
last one... something else he swore he'd be better at.

One of those articles I posted indicated that security experts were also indicating that the capitulation of the Afghan forces was likely.

A timeline of Taliban activity, per Newsweek:

Mid-May, Three months before Kabul falls -- the Taliban started taking over territory as NATO neared the end of their pullout.

Early-June, Two months before Kabul falls -- the Taliban and Afghans are actively fighting in 26 of 34 provinces, with the Taliban inflicting casualties on the Afghans and taking more territory.

Two and Three months ago. That was plenty of time for the State Department
and administration to start flying citizens and diplomats out. Instead, they stuck to their "plan," somehow beieving that the Afghans would rally and hold off the Taliban, with NO assistance?

Mid-July, One month before Kabul falls -- the Taliban had taken control of
half the country.

At this point, the writing should be on the wall, but the Biden administration still stuck to their "plan."

Mid-August -- Kabul falls and the whole country is in Taliban control.

It doesn't sound to me so much that the Afghans "capitulated without a
fight." Sounds more to me like they got beat up pretty good first and
realized they wouldn't be able to keep the Taliban from taking over without
US re-intervention. They had probably figured out that re-intervention was
not coming.


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@MSGID: <611E3683.11466.politicf@capitolcityonline.net>
@REPLY: <611D2144.11445.politicf@capitolcityonline.net>

The Democrat track record on foreign relations is really bad.

If your talking Afghanistan, then that is another republican mess.

Bipartisan mess.


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Hello Alan,

The Democrat track record on foreign relations is really bad.

If your talking Afghanistan, then that is another republican mess.

GWB got us there.
Trump got us out.
But it was Barack Obama who got the bad guy (ObL) - in Pakistan.

--Lee

--
What beer drinkers drink when they're not drinking beer

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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On 19 Aug 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

A timeline of Taliban activity, per Newsweek:

[...]

Two and Three months ago. That was plenty of time for the State Department and administration to start flying citizens and diplomats
out. Instead, they stuck to their "plan," somehow beieving that the Afghans would rally and hold off the Taliban, with NO assistance?

The Taliban agreed not to harm American citizens and diplomats, and have so
far kept that agreement.

It doesn't sound to me so much that the Afghans "capitulated without a fight." Sounds more to me like they got beat up pretty good first and realized they wouldn't be able to keep the Taliban from taking over without US re-intervention. They had probably figured out that re-intervention was not coming.

Kabul fell without a single shot being fired. The Afghan president fled the country, presumably with loads of cash. There seems to be a considerable disconnect between those Afghans who want continued freedom and those tasked with fighting to maintain that freedom.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

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Hello Mike,

The military and intelligence community, for whatever reason, did not
anticipate the Afghan security forces capitulating without a fight.

But some in those communities did anticipate that the Taliban could take >control and that US diplomats, citizens, and Afghan helpers needed to start >getting out a lot sooner than the administration was planning.

Donald J. Trump and the Taliban knew exactly what would happen
when they signed the "peace deal" in February, 2020.

But then, that was no surprise to those who know who and what
Donald J. Trump is and always has been.

--Lee

--
Be Stupid

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The Democrat track record on foreign relations is really bad.

If your talking Afghanistan, then that is another republican mess.

Bipartisan mess.

GWB acted alone sending US troops to Afghanistan.
Donald J. Trump acted alone signing a "peace deal" with the Taliban.

--Lee

--
Big Or Small We Lay Them All
--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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Kabul fell without a single shot being fired. The Afghan president fled the country, presumably with loads of cash. There seems to be a considerable disconnect between those Afghans who want continued freedom and those tasked with fighting to maintain that freedom.

After other battles had taken place and half the country had already fallen.


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On 20 Aug 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Kabul fell without a single shot being fired. The Afghan president fled country, presumably with loads of cash. There seems to be a considerable disconnect between those Afghans who want continued freedom and those ta with fighting to maintain that freedom.

After other battles had taken place and half the country had already fallen.

That's how pullouts work. How responsible is the US for the Afghan security forces' performance? We've been funding and training the for 20 years.
Clearly it was not effective.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

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Hello Jeff,

Kabul fell without a single shot being fired. The Afghan president

fled

country, presumably with loads of cash. There seems to be a

considerable

disconnect between those Afghans who want continued freedom and

those ta

with fighting to maintain that freedom.

After other battles had taken place and half the country had already
fallen.

That's how pullouts work. How responsible is the US for the Afghan security
forces' performance? We've been funding and training the for 20 years. Clearly it was not effective.

It was effective in Japan. Only took the Japanese five years
to learn how to protect themselves.

It was effective in Germany. Only took the Germans ten years
to learn how to protect themselves (only because the Russians
refused to leave Austria).

But even after twenty years, nothing was effective in Afghanistan.
The British approach didn't work (and they tried it twice). The
Russian approach didn't work (and they tried for ten years). So
why should anybody have been surprised the US approach didn't
work even after twenty years?

The people of Afghanistan wanted to do things their own way.
Nobody should ever have gotten in their way.

--Lee

--
Probably the best beer in the world

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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That's how pullouts work.

That is not how Joe promised it would work. He promised that there would
be no diplomats pulled off roofs by helecopters, Saigon-style. False. He
and Kamala promised that the pullout would be orderly, safe, and unrushed. False.

The administration was warned by diplomats, security experts, and some in
the intelligence community that the Afghan military would not likely
hold up to the force of the Taliban. The administration had clear evidence two-months and one-month out that the Afghan military was NOT holding up to
the forces of the Taliban. The warnings were all there. The
administration decided to listen only to those that told them what they
wanted to hear. The fall of Kabul should have come to no surprise to anyone paying attention, yet the administration claimed it was a surprise, at first, and, when that failed, claimed (as you do) that they knew it was going to happen that way all along and was "priced" into the plan.

Just like Trump, they only listened to those in their circle that told them everything would be OK and work just fine... or Joe was lying back in
April, May, June, July, etc., when he was promising that everything would
be orderly, even though he knew/should have known otherwise.


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On 21 Aug 2021, Lee Lofaso said the following...

That's how pullouts work. How responsible is the US for the Afghan security
forces' performance? We've been funding and training the for 20 years Clearly it was not effective.

It was effective in Japan. Only took the Japanese five years
to learn how to protect themselves.

Wasn't Japan forbidden from having a military after WWII?

It was effective in Germany. Only took the Germans ten years
to learn how to protect themselves (only because the Russians
refused to leave Austria).

Wasn't East Germany under Soviet control for about 45 years?

But even after twenty years, nothing was effective in Afghanistan.
The British approach didn't work (and they tried it twice). The
Russian approach didn't work (and they tried for ten years). So
why should anybody have been surprised the US approach didn't
work even after twenty years?

Got me. In hindsight (which is 20/20, after all), maybe we should've been training the women to fight instead of the men.

The people of Afghanistan wanted to do things their own way.
Nobody should ever have gotten in their way.

Some of them have historically had no voice. HOWEVER, that's hindsight
speaking again. Our stated reason for invading their country had nothing to
do with westernizing them.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

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On 21 Aug 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

That's how pullouts work.

That is not how Joe promised it would work. He promised that there would be no diplomats pulled off roofs by helecopters, Saigon-style. False.

Circumstances change. Knowing now how quickly the Taliban advanced, would you prefer he kept that promise?

He and Kamala promised that the pullout would be orderly, safe, and unrushed. False.

Circumstances change. Our allies let us down.

The administration was warned by diplomats, security experts, and some in the intelligence community that the Afghan military would not likely
hold up to the force of the Taliban. The administration had clear evidence two-months and one-month out that the Afghan military was NOT holding up to the forces of the Taliban. The warnings were all there. The administration decided to listen only to those that told them what they wanted to hear. The fall of Kabul should have come to no surprise
to anyone paying attention, yet the administration claimed it was a surprise, at first, and, when that failed, claimed (as you do) that they knew it was going to happen that way all along and was "priced" into the plan.

Saying that the Afghan military would not likely hold up against the Taliban makes no mention of any timeline. I think everyone knew there was a good
chance that Afghanistan would fall to the Taliban once the US left.
Predicting how quickly Kabul would fall is another matter entirely. Hindsight is 20/20, though. If everyone should have known beforehand, where was the conservative outrage before the evacuation began? Why weren't the
conservative pundits questioning the evacuation timeline beforehand?

Just like Trump, they only listened to those in their circle that told them everything would be OK and work just fine... or Joe was lying back
in April, May, June, July, etc., when he was promising that everything would be orderly, even though he knew/should have known otherwise.

Thousands of people have been evacuated, and more are leaving evrey hour. Are you claiming there's no order to it? Somehow these people are getting to the airport, are they not?

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

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Thousands of people have been evacuated, and more are leaving evrey hour. Are you claiming there's no order to it? Somehow these people are getting to the airport, are they not?

Some of them are. Some tried multille times and are having a difficult time of it.

https://twitter.com/RepCarolMiller/status/1429140083291140105

https://www.foxnews.com/world/american-mom-trapped-afghanistan-taliban-biden

https://forbestalk.com/news/usa/american-mom-trapped-by-taliban-describes-horri fic-violence-pleads-for-biden-to-solve-evacuation-crisis/

"An American mom trapped in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan is in hiding with family members and Afghan allies -- unable to reach Kabul's U.S.-held airport for a chance at an evacuation, she said Saturday.

"'I really have given up hope, given up on the hope of going to the airport. It's just not possible to make it through all those people.'"

"She said there are as many as 20 Taliban checkpoints between her and the airport. [...] She was whipped by Taliban fighters on one attempt to get through, she said. A man standing near her was shot in the head on another try, leaving his wife and baby in tears. Since then, she's been in hiding."

Since she was able to tell someone about being whipped by Taliban fighters, that means she isn't dead yet so Biden's conscious can still be clear,
right? It doesn't say if the man shot and presumably killed was an American
or an Afghan.

I have been guessing that Americans who are decendents of that area are probably having a much more difficult time getting to the airport. Sounds
like she might be one of them.


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Circumstances change. Knowing now how quickly the Taliban advanced, would you prefer he kept that promise?

It could have been kept if they'd not waited until after the Taliban had
taken half the country to start getting people out.

Secure a corridor. Evacuate your civilians. If they are not teaching that
at the officers academies, we are in even bigger trouble than either of us could imagine.


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Thousands of people have been evacuated, and more are leaving evrey hour.
Are you claiming there's no order to it? Somehow these people are getting
to the airport, are they not?

A few minutes ago, on Fox News, they were interviewing a retired Major General named Pittard. He served in Iraq. He said that it obvious that there was no plan to get US civilians out of the country.

Right now, CNN is interviewing a veteran, Lt. Col Tripp Adams. He is a member of the group of veterans, #AfghanEvac, that has been assisting Americans and Afghans, using satellite images and other tech, to try to help them get around Taliban checkpoints and make it to the airport.

These are veteran volunteers, not active military, who have been working with other volunteer groups. They are not on the ground in Afghanistan.

Per Adams, "It's tragic, it's horrible. When people reach out to us, even American citizens, getting them to the (airport) gates is a crap-shoot. On Thursday night was our worst day. Maybe 1 in 30 of them that we got to the (airport) gate could get through... even American citizens getting up to the gate, because of the throughput issue and the lack of coordination in the inner agency, folks are just not getting through."

I don't know which US agency he is referring to here.

When asked what he'd like to hear from the President in his next speech, he says, "Things (on the ground) don't match what (Biden) has said in his speeches before. I would like to see him recognize that Americans are getting harassed and are not getting through, and there does not seem to be a plan. Where is the plan? Let's step up and get some leadership and rescue our people."

#
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On 22 Aug 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Thousands of people have been evacuated, and more are leaving evrey hour you claiming there's no order to it? Somehow these people are getting to airport, are they not?

Some of them are. Some tried multille times and are having a difficult time of it.
"An American mom trapped in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan is in hiding with family members and Afghan allies -- unable to reach Kabul's
U.S.-held airport for a chance at an evacuation, she said Saturday.

She is apparently able to communicate with outsiders. The latest advice from the US military is to stay concealed and contact them. The military will give instructions on where to be and when so that they can be picked up. They definitely do not recommend trying to make it to the airport on one's own.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
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On 22 Aug 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Secure a corridor. Evacuate your civilians. If they are not teaching that at the officers academies, we are in even bigger trouble than
either of us could imagine.

The US military is traveling to pre-coordinated pick-up points to get people
to the airport.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 22 Aug 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Thousands of people have been evacuated, and more are leaving evrey hour Are you claiming there's no order to it? Somehow these people are gettin to the airport, are they not?

A few minutes ago, on Fox News, they were interviewing a retired Major General named Pittard. He served in Iraq. He said that it obvious that there was no plan to get US civilians out of the country.

He is lying. There was a plan. Maybe it was a crappy plan, maybe not. But
there was a plan. And that plan has gotten US civilians out of the country.
If there was no plan, they would still be there.

Now, if he meant that Trump left no plan despite setting the withdrawal in motion, then he is correct.

Right now, CNN is interviewing a veteran, Lt. Col Tripp Adams. He is a member of the group of veterans, #AfghanEvac, that has been assisting Americans and Afghans, using satellite images and other tech, to try to help them get around Taliban checkpoints and make it to the airport.

Good for him. However, the US military is currently advising against trying
to make it to the airport on one's own. They recommend contacting them and arranging a pick-up.

These are veteran volunteers, not active military, who have been working with other volunteer groups. They are not on the ground in Afghanistan.

Good for them.

Per Adams, "It's tragic, it's horrible. When people reach out to us,
even American citizens, getting them to the (airport) gates is a crap-shoot. On Thursday night was our worst day. Maybe 1 in 30 of them that we got to the (airport) gate could get through... even American citizens getting up to the gate, because of the throughput issue and the lack of coordination in the inner agency, folks are just not getting through."

That sounds like a logistics problem, not a Taliban problem. And it's not
just at the airport; it's at the destinations as well, which is why Biden is getting civilian airliners involved.

How much planning, exactly, do you think that the president puts into
something like this? How much planning do you think Trump would have put into it? I mean personally, like how much do you think they micromanage what's
going on over there, and how much do they delegate?

When asked what he'd like to hear from the President in his next speech, he says, "Things (on the ground) don't match what (Biden) has said in
his speeches before. I would like to see him recognize that Americans
are getting harassed and are not getting through, and there does not
seem to be a plan. Where is the plan? Let's step up and get some leadership and rescue our people."

Americans are getting through. But everyone can't be the first to leave.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

Hello Jeff,

That's how pullouts work. How responsible is the US for the

Afghan

security
forces' performance? We've been funding and training the for 20

years

Clearly it was not effective.

It was effective in Japan. Only took the Japanese five years
to learn how to protect themselves.

Wasn't Japan forbidden from having a military after WWII?

Oh, they can have a military. But not outside of Japan. The
Constitutuion we forced them to write for themselves in 1946
forbids them to use their military to conquer foreign lands.
Kinda like getting their Emperor to declare himself not to
be a god.

It was effective in Germany. Only took the Germans ten years
to learn how to protect themselves (only because the Russians
refused to leave Austria).

Wasn't East Germany under Soviet control for about 45 years?

Germans never recognized East Germany as being separate from
Germany. Have you ever read the first sentence of the West German
Constitution? It refers to East Germany as the "eastern part of
Germany" - and it was the mission of every German to re-unite
all parts of Germany as one. Which explains why Angela Merkel is
the most popular woman Germany has ever had.

But even after twenty years, nothing was effective in Afghanistan.
The British approach didn't work (and they tried it twice). The
Russian approach didn't work (and they tried for ten years). So
why should anybody have been surprised the US approach didn't
work even after twenty years?

Got me. In hindsight (which is 20/20, after all), maybe we should've been training the women to fight instead of the men.

We shoulda sent Madonna over there to train them. Just think
what they would have done to the Taliban, turning them all into
Boy Toys for ...

The people of Afghanistan wanted to do things their own way.
Nobody should ever have gotten in their way.

Some of them have historically had no voice.

Alexander the Great liked them. Actually, he loved them. Literally.

HOWEVER, that's hindsight speaking again. Our stated reason for invading their country had nothing to do with westernizing them.

Not to worry. Barack Obama found who GWB was looking for.
In Pakistan.

--Lee

--
Be Stupid

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On 22 Aug 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Secure a corridor. Evacuate your civilians. If they are not teaching that at the officers academies, we are in even bigger trouble than either of us could imagine.

The US military is traveling to pre-coordinated pick-up points to get people to the airport.

And they were not doing that sooner because...? I know the answer.


* SLMR 2.1a * Monday is a hard way to spend 1/7 of your life.
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How much planning, exactly, do you think that the president puts into something like this?

Back in April, both Biden and Harris claimed it was Joe's plan, and she
claimed that she helped. How's that old saying go... "don't take credit
for something now if you can't handle being blamed for it later." That
isn't exactly it but it is awful close.

How much planning do you think Trump would have put into
it? I mean personally, like how much do you think they micromanage what's going on over there, and how much do they delegate?

Have they fired anyone yet? So far, while he has thrown others under the
bus, he hasn't thrown anyone he might have delegated to under it yet.


* SLMR 2.1a * Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.
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On 23 Aug 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

Secure a corridor. Evacuate your civilians. If they are not teach that at the officers academies, we are in even bigger trouble than either of us could imagine.

The US military is traveling to pre-coordinated pick-up points to get pe to the airport.

And they were not doing that sooner because...? I know the answer.

Because the airport was over-full of people who wanted to be on the first
plane out.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 23 Aug 2021, Mike Powell said the following...

How much planning, exactly, do you think that the president puts into something like this?

Back in April, both Biden and Harris claimed it was Joe's plan, and she claimed that she helped. How's that old saying go... "don't take credit for something now if you can't handle being blamed for it later." That isn't exactly it but it is awful close.

Biden is taking responsibility for it, 100%. However, I don't think it was a one-man plan.

How much planning do you think Trump would have put into
it? I mean personally, like how much do you think they micromanage what' going on over there, and how much do they delegate?

Have they fired anyone yet? So far, while he has thrown others under the bus, he hasn't thrown anyone he might have delegated to under it yet.

What would throwing them under the bus solve, except point fingers. Things don't always go optimally; if you expect perfection, you're going to fire a
lot of people.

Jeff.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)