From Newsgroup: comp.sys.apple2
In article <ehgRa.10802$
kI5.677@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>,
M. Pender <
mpender@hotmail.com> wrote:
Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote in message news:L1QJa.4966$%3.261752@typhoon.sonic.net...
In article <hBMJa.165789$eJ2.91515@fed1read07>,
salfter@salfter.dyndns.org (Scott Alfter) wrote:
As for other people/organizations and their data, if it's a sufficiently >>> large amount (like all those 9-track tapes that NASA has accumulated),
it isn't always feasible to keep migrating the data to newer formats.
...
Those 9-tracks you're talking about could be stuffed onto optical (CD or
DVD)
NASA already did this, some 10 years ago. And it was about time: some
of those old 9-track, 7-track and 5-track tapes had become so brittle
that they broke during the handling, which caused some data loss.
and stopped from deteriorating with little pain other than the
actual time involved to actually do the process.
That's *still* a lot of pain.
OK, if you don't think your old data isn't worth the time to copy
it to newer media, then it cannot be worth much. NASA had a different
view than you, and did take their time copying their old tapes to newer
media.
By your argument I should copy my 3.5" DSDD floppies to 3.5" DSHD
floppies because a new format is out
You don't need to do that each and every time a new format is released
of course. But when support for your older media becomes scarse, or
when the media itself ages too much, then it's time to copy it to newer
media.
Personally I have some old date which have migrated to newer media
several times: it originated on Apple DOS 3.2 13-sector disks, moved
on to Apple DOS 3.3 16-sector disks, then to Apple CP/M 140K disks,
then to Apple CP/M 640K disks. Then they got transferred (through a
1200 bps serial cable and Kermit) to PC 5.25" 360K disks, then to PC
5.25" 1.2 MB disks, then to PC 3.5" 1.44 MB disks. And now I have
them on an archive CD. Well, that sums up to 7 times I've moved these
data to newer media.
I didn't treat all my old Apple II floppies this carefully of course,
but only the parts I considered most important to me. A lot of Apple
II disks in the category of "amusement" and "games" and "Apple II
programming" remained on Apple II floppies only until the spring of
2000, when I revived my old Apple II, got ADT working on it
(including modifying the Apple II part of ADT such that it worked on
my old Communications Card since I didn't have the Super Serial Card;
no I didn't think this was "a lot fo pain" - it was fun!) and then
transferred all my Apple II floppies to DSK images.
because Apple is too brain-dead to maintain compatibility with older
media formats on the new machines?
Yelling about Apple being brain-dead won't help you. And the GCR
format was a dead-end anyway, since the rest of the microcomputer
industry went MFM for their floppies -- and media compatibility
between different kinds of systems are a Good Thing. That's why
Apple had to give up GCR disks.
To me that's just an argument for buying a used Mac as opposed
to a new one.
OTOH it's a lot of pain to have to maintain a lot of old hardware
just because you don't want to move your old files on to newer
media. No, one old Mac is of course not "a lot of old hardware",
but if you us ethis logic for another few decades, you will
probably end up with numerous pieces of old hardware.
Given time, Apple will probably eliminate floppies entirely.
Not only Apple will do this -- the entire computer industry is
moving in this direction. Dell has just started to deliver new
PC's without a built-in floppy as standard equipment - yes you
can still get it, but then you'll have to tell them you want it.
In another 5 years or so, I think it will be hard to find a new
computer with a floppy drive, either built-in or as extra equipment.
And 5.25" floppy readers are ALREADY hard to find, in particular
the older 40-track readers are next to impossible to find.
So then should I transfer all my old files to Zip disk?
Nope! Zip disks are probably on their way out too. And most
computers don't have Zip disk readers anyway....
Or CDROM?
Yep -- that medium is very widespread and will probably be easily
accessible for at least another decade or so. CDROM-only readers
are on their way out, but all DVD readers can read CDROM disks as
well.
Or floptical? Or magneto-optical? Perhaps QIC-80 tape?
....please try to be reasonable... :-)
BTW you forgot to mention memory sticks.... :-)))))
Your argument asks the user community to spend a lot of time and money
based on a guess as to which products are going to survive, when even
the folks at Apple don't always have a clue (e.g. Apple III, Apple Lisa, Apple IIc+, etc.)
Why should they? A lot of them probably weren't even born when these
computers had their heydays.... :-)
Failure to *offer* minimal backward compatibility is the stupidity
of Apple, not that of people who have a lot of media.
Should today's computers also maintain backwards compatibility with
8" floppy disks? 9-track tapes? 7-track tapes? Punched cards?
Punched paper tapes? (I've dealt with all these old media myself,
earlier). Think of the people who have such old media -- isn't it
stupid of the computer industry to offer minimal backward compatibility
to these?
There are a lot of obsolete media. And if you want to continue having
access to your old data, you have two choices:
1. Move the data on to newer media
2. Maintain obsolete equipment to read these obsolete media.
Maintaining some degree of backward compatibility (or at least a
provision for adding it) is reasonable enough, don't you think?
No question, it's reasonable. But by the same token, is it reasonable to
expect to remain backward-compatible with everything that's ever been
done, however good, bad, or indifferent it might be? Especially when
doing so will effectively "hold you back" from improvements that could
have been added, if it weren't for the fact that you can't fit 'em
inbecause you've got 429 flavors of legacy drivers already shoehorned
into the code?
Perhaps Apple should think about improving the operating system so that
basic driver support doesn't have to be "shoehorned" into the code.
In the case of GCR vs MFM floppies, it's not merely a matter of
maintaining old drivers, but also of maintaining old hardware. The
latter will be expensive: Apple would have to construct their special
floppy driver hardware, instead of just buying a standard floppy
controller. That will make the new computer more expensive.
Now, if you were buying a new computer, would you accept that it was,
say, $50 more expensive just because it supported some old media
format which you never would use and perhaps didn't even know existed?
I don't think so.... :-)
IMHO the problem is not the inherent stupidity in eliminating the
floppy drive, but in offering a 3.5" USB drive that doesn't support
the same media as the drive it supposedly replaces.
Most likely, there has never ever been any chipset for a 3.5" USB
drive which supports GCR. Sure, one could design, construct and
manufacture such chips, but since few would buy them, they would
probably become very expensive. So then the question becomes:
how much would you be willing to pay for a GCR capable 3.5" USB
floppy drive?
Media do have limited lifetimes -- after some time they get obsolete
and readers/writers for these media will no longer be manufactured.
This happened to the phonograph rolls, the 78 rpm records, the
reel-to-reel magnetic tame (and its predecessor: the steel wire
intended for audio recprdings) and the vinyl record. Among computer
media it has happened to the punched paper tapes, the punched card,
various formats of 5/7/9-track magnetic tapes, the 8" floppy, the
5.25" flopp, and the GCR variety of the 3.5" floppy. Within some
years it'll happen to the other kinds of 3.5" floppies as well.
Which ones of all these old media formats should be supported, do you
think? Only the ones YOU possess? Or should there be some other
deciding factor?
There already is a deciding factor, of course: the market. Which
means that if you're capable of activating a large enough number of
your fellows and all of you tell apple "WE WANT THE GCR FLOPPY DRIVER
BACK!!!", then they will start to manufacture it! That is, if you
can convince Apple you're willing to buy them at a price such that
Apple won't lose economically in manufacturing them. Which of course
means the fewer you are, the more expensive it will be. And even
you alone could probably make Apple manufacture it, if you were
willing to pay Apple some million dollars.... :-)
But talking about "idiocy" or "stupidity" won't help you. So
you have three choices:
1. Move the data to newer media. Maybe not ALL your old data, but
those data you don't want to lose.
2. Keep and maintain a piece of obsolete equipment for each obsolete
media format you want to have accecss to.
3. Lose your old data.
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